Forums: Skydiving: Safety and Training:
182 observer rides

 


stitch  (C License)

May 3, 2006, 9:27 AM
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182 observer rides Can't Post

I saw this mentioned in another thread in another forum.
Are there dropzones that allow 182 observer rides for non-jumpers?
I have limited experience with the 182, but everyone I've been in the pilot has on an emergency parachute.I figure this is due to the 182's record concerning pre-mature deployments,etc.
Along with the tight-space,lack of proper passenger seating, and proximity to the door, I wouldn't figure observer rides would be a good idea.


TrickyDicky  (C 103196)

May 3, 2006, 9:56 AM
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Re: [stitch] 182 observer rides [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
I saw this mentioned in another thread in another forum.
Are there dropzones that allow 182 observer rides for non-jumpers?
I have limited experience with the 182, but everyone I've been in the pilot has on an emergency parachute.I figure this is due to the 182's record concerning pre-mature deployments,etc.
Along with the tight-space,lack of proper passenger seating, and proximity to the door, I wouldn't figure observer rides would be a good idea.

I think you just answered your own question. Plus you'd have to put the 2nd seat in, which then loses you a space for the jumper and it makes it hard for anyone to get out the door.

And as for bail out rigs and prematures... Id have to say that 182s and 206s are probably the most proven skydiving aircraft, and have probably flown way way more lifts than any other aircraft. Pilot wear bail out rigs because they want to. At my old DZ the pilot hasnt worn a bail out rig since they got it (afaik), and that was in 1978. Theyve never had a aircraft endangering incident.


kwmontreal  (D 25906)

May 3, 2006, 10:24 AM
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Re: [stitch] 182 observer rides [In reply to] Can't Post

We allow observer rides if we have an empty slot (182/206). It requires a total briefing and some basic instruction on operations/canopy control/emergency procedures. Following all this they have to wait and see if we have an empty slot. When and if they do get the opportunity, they wear a staticline rig, and, have to practice a few emergency exits. Its actually a long process and no guarantees on getting the ride.


Jump Safe.

Kent


airtwardo  (D License)

May 3, 2006, 10:39 AM
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Re: [kwmontreal] 182 observer rides [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
We allow observer rides if we have an empty slot (182/206). It requires a total briefing and some basic instruction on operations/canopy control/emergency procedures. Following all this they have to wait and see if we have an empty slot. When and if they do get the opportunity, they wear a staticline rig, and, have to practice a few emergency exits. Its actually a long process and no guarantees on getting the ride.



Quote:

Just like 30 years ago when I took mine!Wink


I sat of the floor with my back to the panel, no rig...no door...no seat-belt.

My briefing by the pilot consisted of:
Everything should be alright, but if ya see ME head toward the door...
Ya better grab for all the gusto you can get!Sly


kwmontreal  (D 25906)

May 3, 2006, 10:43 AM
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Re: [airtwardo] 182 observer rides [In reply to] Can't Post

Sounds like some of the stories I have listened to from the early days!! It seems life was exciting back in the seventies and eighties!!Wink

JUMP SAFE!

kENT


airtwardo  (D License)

May 3, 2006, 10:53 AM
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Re: [kwmontreal] 182 observer rides [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Sounds like some of the stories I have listened to from the early days!! It seems life was exciting back in the seventies and eighties!!Wink

JUMP SAFE!

kENT

Quote:



Let's just say "Safety Meetings" had a whole different connotation back then...!Blush


stitch  (C License)

May 3, 2006, 11:02 AM
Post #7 of 25 (1148 views)
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Re: [airtwardo] 182 observer rides [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
Sounds like some of the stories I have listened to from the early days!! It seems life was exciting back in the seventies and eighties!!Wink

JUMP SAFE!

kENT

Quote:



Let's just say "Safety Meetings" had a whole different connotation back then...!Blush
Shocked


chuckbrown  (D 19538)

May 3, 2006, 12:20 PM
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Re: [stitch] 182 observer rides [In reply to] Can't Post

Nothing wrong with putting observers in a 182. We routinely put non-jumping observers right next to the door with an emergency rig. We make them sign a waiver and give them a briefing on emergency procedures and send them up. They're told to keep the seat (floor) belt on, so they're not going anywhere.


TFFTM  (D 29333)

May 3, 2006, 12:21 PM
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Re: [stitch] 182 observer rides [In reply to] Can't Post

We allow them and sometimes encourage them if there is space on the plane.

They have to wear a pilot bailout rig and go through some instruction. They sit on the floor behind the pilot and have to remain there until the door is closed and latched.


fcajump  (D 15598)

May 3, 2006, 12:32 PM
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Re: [chuckbrown] 182 observer rides [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Nothing wrong with putting observers in a 182. We routinely put non-jumping observers right next to the door with an emergency rig. We make them sign a waiver and give them a briefing on emergency procedures and send them up. They're told to keep the seat (floor) belt on, so they're not going anywhere.

Only variation I would mention to this was at one DZ where they did not have spare PEP's, so they used a student rig with the main PC shoved way in and briefed the observer to only use the reserve.

Personally, I got a great kick out of doing a back-flip off the step after talking with the observer from the step... Its as close to directly involved as they can get without getting out.!!

Though you have reminded me of another related thread I had wanted to start...

JW



JW


mark  (D 6108)

May 3, 2006, 1:20 PM
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Re: [chuckbrown] 182 observer rides [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Nothing wrong with putting observers in a 182.

FAR 91.107(a)(3) requires each person to occupy an approved seat. There is an exception for using the floor of the aircraft as a seat, "provided that the person is on board for the purpose of engaging in sport parachuting."

So to legally carry an observer seated on the floor of the jump plane, you'd have to convince a skeptical FAA inspector that "observing" is the same as "engaging in" sport parachuting.

Mark


crotalus01  (B 28932)

May 3, 2006, 5:39 PM
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Re: [mark] 182 observer rides [In reply to] Can't Post

i have been on a load on our Cessna 195 where there was an observer. she sat on the floor next to the pilot, seatbelt on the entire ride (that i saw anyways, cant say for sure on the way down but assuming as the pilot is a safety nut in a good way), and wore a sport rig that she was instructed in the use of in case of an emergency. although she had no skydives, she was dating a skydiver so she had a little more general knowledge than the average whuffo...


packing_jarrett  (D License)

May 3, 2006, 5:55 PM
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Re: [stitch] 182 observer rides [In reply to] Can't Post

yeah they can sit where ever they want... not much of a choice they always seem to sit next to the pilot with the back towards the dash. seatbelt on all the time with a rig. briefing usually takes less then a minute: in case of emerg. jump out pull the silver. grab toggles and bring them at about shoulder hieghth (its usually a sport rig). we just climb over them.


mjosparky  (D 5476)

May 3, 2006, 10:57 PM
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Re: [crotalus01] 182 observer rides [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
i have been on a load on our Cessna 195 where there was an observer. she sat on the floor next to the pilot, seatbelt on the entire ride (that i saw anyways, cant say for sure on the way down but assuming as the pilot is a safety nut in a good way), and wore a sport rig that she was instructed in the use of in case of an emergency. although she had no skydives, she was dating a skydiver so she had a little more general knowledge than the average whuffo...

How much training did you have before you sat next to an open door? Because it is done does not make it legal or right.


L.O.  (D 16935)

May 4, 2006, 6:25 AM
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Re: [TrickyDicky] 182 observer rides [In reply to] Can't Post

     Any time you intend to open the door of an aircraft in flight all occupant must wear an approved and current parachute. If your Pilot or observer is not wearing a rig they are in violation of federal law.

Mad


mark  (D 6108)

May 4, 2006, 6:41 AM
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Re: [L.O.] 182 observer rides [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Any time you intend to open the door of an aircraft in flight all occupant must wear an approved and current parachute. If your Pilot or observer is not wearing a rig they are in violation of federal law.

Not true, and you are unable to cite any such federal law.

Mark


(This post was edited by mark on May 4, 2006, 7:24 AM)


riggerrob  (D 14840)

May 4, 2006, 7:17 AM
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Re: [stitch] 182 observer rides [In reply to] Can't Post

Our insurance company discourages observers.


mjosparky  (D 5476)

May 4, 2006, 2:58 PM
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Re: [mark] 182 observer rides [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
Any time you intend to open the door of an aircraft in flight all occupant must wear an approved and current parachute. If your Pilot or observer is not wearing a rig they are in violation of federal law.

Not true, and you are unable to cite any such federal law.

Mark

No more calls, we have a winner.Smile


fcajump  (D 15598)

May 5, 2006, 8:54 AM
Post #19 of 25 (721 views)
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Re: [mark] 182 observer rides [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
Any time you intend to open the door of an aircraft in flight all occupant must wear an approved and current parachute. If your Pilot or observer is not wearing a rig they are in violation of federal law.

Not true, and you are unable to cite any such federal law.

Mark

Unless it is specified in the STC, then it would be in violation of the STC and therefore an FAR violation... But as I have never actually read the STC's, I don't know if it is in there...
(See the other related thread on this question)

Jim


L.O.  (D 16935)

May 5, 2006, 8:58 AM
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Re: [mark] 182 observer rides [In reply to] Can't Post

     Oh Mark my friend I am afraid you stepped on the wrong toes today.

For a 182 and most aircraft smaller then a DHC-6 it is in the STC under special provisions.

It is included on some larger aircraft STCs and is highly dependent on the authorizing FSDO in those cases.

Since the STC is an approved document. Violating the provissions there in stated, would render the aircraft non airworthy. and put you in violation.

Maybe you should look stuff up next time.

I am sorry I get so heated about pilot stuff, I just hate it when people tell me I am wrong in a not so nice way.

If you need anymore help with you FARs let me know, I try. Have a good day all.


(This post was edited by L.O. on May 5, 2006, 9:23 AM)


mark  (D 6108)

May 5, 2006, 9:25 AM
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Re: [L.O.] 182 observer rides [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
How about that for citing the law BEAHCH. I can and I did.

And the FAR you cited was... what?

Is a helicopter an aircraft? May an R22 or R44 be flown with the doors removed? Do the occupants have to wear parachutes when the doors are removed?

Is a PA-18 Super Cub an aircraft? May it be flown with the doors open without parachutes being required?

In reply to:
I am sorry I get so heated about pilot stuff, I just hate it when people who don't have the knowledge tell me I am wrong in a not so nice way.

Me, too.

Mark


L.O.  (D 16935)

May 5, 2006, 9:32 AM
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Re: [L.O.] 182 observer rides [In reply to] Can't Post

     Mark!! I didn't realize who I was talking to. Danm, sorry about that.

I bow down before your rigging knowledge (you are the man), but I just had to make sure the other stuff was corrected. It is a saftey issue and I knew I was correct.

I hope I didn't stomp to hard.


L.O.  (D 16935)

May 5, 2006, 9:43 AM
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Re: [mark] 182 observer rides [In reply to] Can't Post

    Sorry again, I did phrase that poorly. I know the exceptions, I was just talking about 182s since that was the topic here. I did make my post way to broad. Thanks for the clarification. I said law not FAR and I did say most not all.


mark  (D 6108)

May 5, 2006, 9:56 AM
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Re: [L.O.] 182 observer rides [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Damn, sorry about that.

<some stuff snipped> I just had to make sure the other stuff was corrected. It is a safety issue and I knew I was correct.

I hope I didn't stomp to hard.

No problem.Smile

The statement I responded to was the blanket statement that all door-open/removed operations legally required all occupants to wear parachutes.

I agree that it's good safety practice for all occupants to wear parachutes in jump planes. Still, you (and Scott, too, for that matter) are incorrect in claiming it is an FAR requirement.

I took all my helicopter check rides in a doors-off R22. We didn't wear parachutes. (The inspector did get out on the ground to observe my auto-rotation to touch-down, though.) And I've done plenty of glider tows and flight instruction in doors-open J-3 and PA-18 Cubs. If you talk to Scott again, instead of asking if parachutes are required for jump pilots, ask him about whether its okay to fly those aircraft with the doors open.

If you look in the Cessna 208 flight manual, you'll find provisions for flight with the door removed. No STC required, wind deflector must be installed. The manual is silent on the issue of parachutes required, so in the absence of an FAR to that effect, no parachutes are required.

Need more citations?

Mark


mjosparky  (D 5476)

May 5, 2006, 2:25 PM
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Re: [L.O.] 182 observer rides [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Any time you intend to open the door of an aircraft in flight all occupant must wear an approved and current parachute.

In reply to:
I just hate it when people tell me I am wrong in a not so nice way.

I am not sure there is a nice way to put this, but you are wrong. The FAR's only address the use of a parachute when doing aerobatics with a passenger aboard. As for STCs, I have seen several that do not mention the use of a parachute when operating with the door off on everything from DC-3s to a C-172.

But as was posted earlier it is not the smart thing to do.

(not intended to step on your toes)


(This post was edited by mjosparky on May 5, 2006, 6:14 PM)



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