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When to flare?

 

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georgerussia  (C 35731)

May 1, 2006, 11:23 AM
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When to flare? Can't Post

Hi all,

Still have some problems with flaring. For my last 3 jumps (8 total on square canopy) I've got stand-up landing, however every time it was 2-stage flare. I.e. I started flaring too high, foudn it, fixed the toggles at ears level, then did a full flare near the ground.

Is there any way to improve height perception on ground training? Did you have flare problems on your 10-20 jumps?


AggieDave  (D License)

May 1, 2006, 11:32 AM
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Re: [georgerussia] When to flare? [In reply to] Can't Post

You need to flare about twice your body height above the ground. Think of it as three pieces that are used to create a smooth flare. 1, 2, FINISH. Practice with the "9-flares" dive on some hop-n-pops and/or altitude clear and pulls.


Premier NWFlyer  (D License)

May 1, 2006, 11:33 AM
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Re: [georgerussia] When to flare? [In reply to] Can't Post

I have heard this trick for people who are flaring too high ... when you think it's time to flare, give yourself enough time to say "oh shit" one or two times. THEN flare. Laugh


Scoop

May 1, 2006, 11:34 AM
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Re: [NWFlyer] When to flare? [In reply to] Can't Post

I was told (tongue in cheek of course Tongue) to flare when your scared!


matthewcline  (D 21585)

May 1, 2006, 11:38 AM
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Re: [NWFlyer] When to flare? [In reply to] Can't Post

I was actually told the same thing in my FJC, a few moons ago.

It was "oh shit, oh shit, oh shit, Flare".
Stood them all up until I got a little to confident, then I crashed few times (and many more since thenBlush).


lisamariewillbe  (A License)

May 1, 2006, 12:09 PM
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Re: [AggieDave] When to flare? [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
Practice with the "9-flares" dive

Ive nto heard this term, what is this please? I to have issues with my flare depending on the size canopy.... If Im loaded below .75 it seems I just dont have the strength to finish it, and if Im at the .85 ish it feels like I start it to late or to early


ntrprnr  (B 28397)

May 1, 2006, 12:33 PM
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Re: [NWFlyer] When to flare? [In reply to] Can't Post

That actually works!


Premier NWFlyer  (D License)

May 1, 2006, 12:35 PM
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Re: [ntrprnr] When to flare? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
That actually works!

Yeah, I used to do it all the time. Smile


Amazon  (D License)

May 1, 2006, 12:50 PM
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Re: [georgerussia] When to flare? [In reply to] Can't Post

I usually wait till the ground scares me... then hold off for a sec.. and flare when the ground REALLLLY scares me....Wink


Be sure to look out in front of you where you intend to actually LAND... not at your feet.

Your milage may varySmile


magnio  (C 77142)

May 1, 2006, 1:40 PM
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Re: [georgerussia] When to flare? [In reply to] Can't Post

We were taught to start the flare, to about 1/4 down, at tree-top height. Then do the rest of the flare when we thought we hit ground - and never look down, just straight forward.

Can't say it worked, but at least it worked better when I consentrated about it...Wink (In fact most students here flare well enough.)


Andy9o8  (D License)

May 1, 2006, 2:01 PM
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Re: [magnio] When to flare? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
We were taught to start the flare, to about 1/4 down, at tree-top height. Then do the rest of the flare when we thought we hit ground

The problem with the "multi-stage flare" approach is that going into partial brakes and then holding it reduces your forward drive; but you actually want to retain as much forward drive as possible, since that translates into the greatest amount of lift at flare time.


Scoop

May 1, 2006, 2:11 PM
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Re: [Andy9o8] When to flare? [In reply to] Can't Post

And try doing a 2 stage flare on a wingloading of 0.7:1 on a F111 student canopy with over 500 jumps on it. It really doesn't work Laugh Might as well be jumping the same material they make tea bags out of!

Also I seem to get a better more accurate flare when I look down. I tried looking ahead and have habbit of flaring too high when I try that. Guess its down to your individual perception of height. Only remedy is practice!


(This post was edited by Scoop on May 1, 2006, 2:12 PM)


MB38  (A 48618)

May 1, 2006, 3:31 PM
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Re: [georgerussia] When to flare? [In reply to] Can't Post

The advice that I didn't want to listen to at first [but saved me in the end] was to look at the horizon. You can't tell how far away the ground is through your legs, just look out at the horizon like you normally do while walking and use that as your judge. Need to get an idea what being 12 feet off the ground is like? Climb a ladder and just look off of it.


kelpdiver  (B 7)

May 1, 2006, 4:02 PM
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Re: [MB38] When to flare? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Need to get an idea what being 12 feet off the ground is like? Climb a ladder and just look off of it.

that never worked for me, since the ladder isn't moving forward at 10-20mph from a hundred feet up.

When people were available as references, I gauged how quickly I was getting down to their level and when I was a second out, then (as best I could) shifted my vision to the horizon. Often I stay[ed] looking too close to my feet.

(BTW- when we're talking that starting point value of 12 feet, is that from feet to ground, or head to ground?)

To the original poster - the answer varies. My older triathlon was a bit slow to do its thing and I found I needed to flare it sooner than I would the spectres I rented prior. And the 9 cells like the Pilot - very different feeling with a shallower glide path.


AggieDave  (D License)

May 1, 2006, 4:15 PM
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Re: [lisamariewillbe] When to flare? [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
Quote
Practice with the "9-flares" dive

Ive nto heard this term, what is this please?


Ok. Go do an altitude clear and pull, so you're not around other canopies and you have plenty of time to practice. If you break it down to the 3 components of a flare (basic explaination, since there are 1000's of different ways to flare) and 3 basic speeds (slow medium fast) then you practice each variation.

The trick is look up at your canopy, your body has to pivot towards the nose and just under or past the edge of the nose, changing the angle of your canopy to produce a good "powerful" flare.

Start with a normal 1,2,finish (finish is all the way down, arms straight), then a fast 1, normal 2, finish. Then a fast 1,2, normal finish. Etc. Go through all the variations. You're learning the speed and difference for different speeds and types of flares. Learning how it feels. Then when flaring on landing if you are coming in, start your flare and need to speed up, slow down, etc you'll be able to compensate with confidence.

Also, get someone to video your landings, watch your flare height, speed and type. Are you actually finishing the flare or just flaring halfway? I'm willing to bet you're not finishing your flare or have an incorrect speed to your flare.

At .75-.85 you should be able to get something from your canopy, enough for you to flare the canopy and have a good landing. Although as you get closer to 1.0:1 you'll get a little more, but you'll be coming into your landing with a little bit higher airspeed.


Asking questions here and reading about concepts in a book are ok, but nothing, absolutely nothing, is better then having a canopy coach video you, debrief you, etc, in person. Personally I believe that Scott Miller is the premier canopy coach out there today. He has a great attitude and the ability to break concepts down and teach people those concepts with out being cocky. Nevermind that he's a highly experienced canopy pilot and flat out knows what he is talking about.


(This post was edited by AggieDave on May 1, 2006, 4:17 PM)


lisamariewillbe  (A License)

May 1, 2006, 4:45 PM
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Re: [AggieDave] When to flare? [In reply to] Can't Post

Thanks I am going to print this out and bring it to San Marcos when I go, I wont be jumping for 2 more weeks ... I will be taking Scotts Class as soon as I finish my rig (still need canopies) I generally have stand up landings (70 out of 82) but I know I am not consistent, sometimes I do two stage , sometimes I just go to my waist, sometimes I do one solid movement. I dont know what prompts me to change it with each jump or if its me getting lazy. I at least 50% of the time start just a bit early but hold in brakes a "oh shit" then finish.

I am taking scotts class one day for my accuracy and safety also .... The longer I am in this sport the more scared I get while landing and I think that is helping to hold me back from progressing. I need to educate myself more on my canopy. Thanks for your time


jasonRose  (D 26304)

May 1, 2006, 6:43 PM
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Re: [georgerussia] When to flare? [In reply to] Can't Post

My flair problem occured on jump 6, when I bounced off my ass on the ground then flared. Oppps leson learned the hard way with a cracked ass bone..Wink


michalm21  (Student)

May 1, 2006, 7:28 PM
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Re: [jasonRose] When to flare? [In reply to] Can't Post

When asked, my instructor told me a secret how to deal with high flares.
"You have to flare lower"

LOL It cracks me up all the time Sly


Premier NWFlyer  (D License)

May 1, 2006, 8:49 PM
Post #19 of 35 (1963 views)
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Re: [lisamariewillbe] When to flare? [In reply to] Can't Post

Scott's first eval jump will be very similar to what AggieDave outlined... practice flares at different speeds.

I just did his class two weeks ago and absolutely loved it. I think you'll find it very helpful at building up your confidence with your canopy. I know it did for me.


georgerussia  (C 35731)

May 1, 2006, 10:39 PM
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Re: [NWFlyer] When to flare? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
I have heard this trick for people who are flaring too high ... when you think it's time to flare, give yourself enough time to say "oh shit" one or two times.Laugh

I did something like this on my 5th jump, and went into the ground on full speed, demonstrating everyone around a nice double PLF, and scaring my instructors :)
Probably I also need to practice saying "oh shit" too..


(This post was edited by georgerussia on May 1, 2006, 10:48 PM)


kelpdiver  (B 7)

May 2, 2006, 1:30 AM
Post #21 of 35 (1925 views)
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Re: [georgerussia] When to flare? [In reply to] Can't Post

how many syllables is 'oh shit' in Russian?


popsjumper  (D 999999999)

May 2, 2006, 4:59 AM
Post #22 of 35 (1897 views)
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Re: [georgerussia] When to flare? [In reply to] Can't Post

Have you guys ever heard the expression "Fly it all the way to the ground"?

This is basically what Dave is saying...learning to flare with some idea more than just a quick one-stroke FLARE and hope you get the timing right.

It's like approaching a stop sign in a car. You don't just come up to the sign and jam on the brakes at the last second.


daniel_owen_uk  (Student)

May 2, 2006, 5:12 AM
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Re: [georgerussia] When to flare? [In reply to] Can't Post

Daft as it sounds I find it much easier to judge my flare height if I land near other people. I think it's either because I flare when my feet get a couple of feet above their head, or I am extra careful because I don't want to fuck up around others lol.


lisamariewillbe  (A License)

May 2, 2006, 6:21 AM
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Re: [popsjumper] When to flare? [In reply to] Can't Post

The thing that makes it hard though is when you go from say a zp 210 to a 170 f111 and everything in-between. It seems that just as I think that I "get" it , Im on something different and have to start all over again. Except the "not finishing " part, if I dont finish the flare it is simply because I am lazy , or I played so much under canopy I am tired. Plus my wingloading I can have a stand up without finishing a flare, I know its wrong esp since I have one more downsize and I am getting into a bad habit. Im trying to work on it.


fcajump  (D 15598)

May 2, 2006, 6:59 AM
Post #25 of 35 (1855 views)
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Re: [popsjumper] When to flare? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
It's like approaching a stop sign in a car. You don't just come up to the sign and jam on the brakes at the last second.

Funny, that how a old girlfriend used to drive... then would curse about her car not braking like it should.Crazy Didn't ride with her much after the first time, but her friends liked it when I drove Sly


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