Forums: Skydiving: Gear and Rigging:
12 Month Reserve Repacks

 

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rigger_john  (C 101098)

Apr 24, 2006, 12:40 PM
Post #1 of 31 (2028 views)
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12 Month Reserve Repacks Can't Post

I know of 4 countries that have a 12 month repack cycle:

Belgium
France
Germany
Kenya

I also know that 4 more have 6 months but allow longer if the canopy manufacture say so:

Austria
Bulgaria
Hungary
Slovakia

And two more that are considering going to 12 month repacks :

Venezuela
Norway

I know there is a bunch of data to support longer repacks than the current BPA 6 months and the FAA 120 days, but what do you guys think any reason to go longer or reasons to keep it short?


mollusc  (D 66539)

Apr 24, 2006, 12:48 PM
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Re: [rigger_john] 12 Month Reserve Repacks [In reply to] Can't Post

Norway has now introduced the 12 month repack cycle on private gear. Student, drop zone owned and tandem gear still have 6 month repack cycle and gear checks every 3rd month.


Premier GravityGirl  (D 18897)

Apr 24, 2006, 1:37 PM
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Re: [mollusc] 12 Month Reserve Repacks [In reply to] Can't Post

I'm good with 6 months, but I think 12 months is a bit too much. T

hat's an entire cycle of changing weather conditions and in some cases a lot fo wear and tear on the gear.

Our DZ is very moist in the winter and very dry in the summer. We jump all year long. I have no factual data to back it up, but I personally want my rig re-packed at least twice a year to air it out and clean the housings.


sundevil777  (D License)

Apr 24, 2006, 1:40 PM
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Re: [rigger_john] 12 Month Reserve Repacks [In reply to] Can't Post

Canada is also at 6 months.


kelpdiver  (B 7)

Apr 24, 2006, 2:06 PM
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Re: [rigger_john] 12 Month Reserve Repacks [In reply to] Can't Post

there was a short blurb in the April Skydiving Mag suggesting that the FAA would make an announcement on the 6 month cycle this summer. Didn't say what the effective date would be.


piisfish

Apr 24, 2006, 2:15 PM
Post #6 of 31 (1910 views)
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Re: [rigger_john] 12 Month Reserve Repacks [In reply to] Can't Post

Germany and Switzerland (same as Germany for this regulation) are not 12 months.. They are : according to manufacturers recommendations (Rig+Reserve). If the combo is 12 mts, then 12 mts, if 6 mts on minimum 1 component , then 6 mts, if 120 days, then 120 days...

my stuff :
Talon (1year) + PD-R (1yr) then 1 year
same for my Atom+Techno...

Clicky here for the list. Made me notice the list is incomplete... No VSE for example...


divnswoop  (D 18276)

Apr 24, 2006, 3:44 PM
Post #7 of 31 (1865 views)
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Re: [rigger_john] 12 Month Reserve Repacks [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
I know of 4 countries that have a 12 month repack cycle:

Belgium
France
Germany
Kenya

U missed the US of A!!!

Oh wait....it's not good enough for "everybody" in the US, just the "special" ones...Laugh


councilman24  (D 8631)

Apr 24, 2006, 4:13 PM
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Re: [kelpdiver] 12 Month Reserve Repacks [In reply to] Can't Post

The FAA is considering issuing a Notice of Proposed Rule Making, NPRM, to go to a 180 day cycle after turning down a request for an exemption by PIA. We had too many people covered.Crazy When the FAA will get to it is up for grabs. We hoped they would get to it last year. It will go out with a comment period. There WILL comments against. The FAA will have to consider each negative comment and explain why to ignore it. It all takes time. IF they get the NPRM out this summer, MAYBE by the end of next year. And they could decide NOT to make the change based on comments received. While in the works and probably it is not a done deal.

The issue isn't the reserve itself. But how it's treated during that period and what else is wrong with the rig that needs servicing. There is little debate about 6 months now among those that didn't support it. I was a late convert when we discussed it at PIA. We were waiting for matching funds from USPA to do some testing to supply data for the hold outs and the FAA when the FAA suggested applying for the exemption.

But there are still people in the industry who don't support it.


mjosparky  (D 5476)

Apr 24, 2006, 5:17 PM
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Re: [councilman24] 12 Month Reserve Repacks [In reply to] Can't Post

Attached is the FAA responce to the request for an exemption.


Andrewwhyte  (C 1988)

Apr 24, 2006, 6:39 PM
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Re: [mjosparky] 12 Month Reserve Repacks [In reply to] Can't Post

Nothing attached Sparky.


mark  (D 6108)

Apr 24, 2006, 8:24 PM
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Re: [mjosparky] 12 Month Reserve Repacks [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Attached is the FAA responce to the request for an exemption.
Clicky (pdf).

Mark


mjosparky  (D 5476)

Apr 24, 2006, 11:50 PM
Post #12 of 31 (1709 views)
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Re: [mark] 12 Month Reserve Repacks [In reply to] Can't Post

Thanks Mark. Angelic


jurgencamps  (D License)

Apr 25, 2006, 1:07 AM
Post #13 of 31 (1686 views)
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Re: [rigger_john] 12 Month Reserve Repacks [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
I know of 4 countries that have a 12 month repack cycle:

Belgium
France
Germany
Kenya

Belgium is 4 months or 6 months, it depends on the federation.

Jurgen


rigger_john  (C 101098)

Apr 25, 2006, 1:36 AM
Post #14 of 31 (1679 views)
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Re: [rigger_john] 12 Month Reserve Repacks [In reply to] Can't Post

Any chance of getting back on track?

Quote:
I know there is a bunch of data to support longer repacks than the current BPA 6 months and the FAA 120 days, but what do you guys think any reason to go longer or reasons to keep it short?


Travman  (E License)

Apr 25, 2006, 4:38 AM
Post #15 of 31 (1631 views)
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Re: [rigger_john] 12 Month Reserve Repacks [In reply to] Can't Post

Australia is currently 6 months, and they have been talks about extending it to 12 months.


reusch

Apr 25, 2006, 4:51 AM
Post #16 of 31 (1623 views)
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Re: [rigger_john] 12 Month Reserve Repacks [In reply to] Can't Post

It's not a question of Days or Month - it's a question of responsibility!
Should be a federation responsible by making one strictly rule regardless what it is - or is the manufactore responsible by knowing his material better than anybody else?

The "European" do not step to 12 Month - We changed our system by following what the manufactorers recommanded!
For some of the manufactorers we still have 120 Days, other 180 Days, but mostly 12 Month.

Listen to the people who knows about it!


marinho  (D 26345)

Apr 25, 2006, 6:12 AM
Post #17 of 31 (1593 views)
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Re: [rigger_john] 12 Month Reserve Repacks [In reply to] Can't Post

A few things to think about it!
1 - Skydivers don't normally check their gear.
2 - If they do, normally they don't know what to check.
3 - If something is wrong, it'll take 6 months or a year to be found and repaired.
4 - We'll have AAD issues that skydivers will not like.
5 - We'll have more riggers with less experience on the field.
6 - The majority of repairs needed are found during the simple but effective inspection prior to the packing process. So, just speculating here, but due to the lack of knowledge rigging wise to the common skydiver most won't know if a repair is needed until they bring it in to be packed, so this will raise the cost of all rigging services.
Here is my opinion as a parachute rigger that works full time performing rigging services:
I've seen so many problems on sport and pilot rigs that could create a safety problem.
We are the official rigging services for the WFFC, also been in many events like Dublin, Bridge Day, Harvest Moon Boogie, Cinco de Mayo, and on and on! Plus the customers that send their gear to us every week. We are also speakers for safety seminars in different drop zones and glider and aviation places.
So what I'm trying to say is that we have a chance to see all kinds of weird things that make me very concerned.
I'm not against the reserve repack cycle time frame, but I'm concerned for the safety of my fellow skydivers. The most important part is not the reserve repacks, it's the inspection!!
Cheers,


riggerrob  (D 14840)

Apr 25, 2006, 7:54 AM
Post #18 of 31 (1566 views)
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Re: [marinho] 12 Month Reserve Repacks [In reply to] Can't Post

Good points Marinho,

The I&R cycle has nothing to do with opening times, rather, it is all about finding and fixing damage before it becomes deadly.

Just before CSPA changed it reserve repack cycle to 180 days, the Chair of CSPA's Technical Committee asked my opinion. I replied: "I don't care because I will make more money doing major repairs."

In practice, a 180 day repack cycle really means "once a year." Most Canadian DZs only operate 5 or 6 months out of the year, so most Canadian skydivers get their reserves repacked - once a year - in the spring time.
It is the same cycle as glider pilots, airshow performers and Reno air racers. Glider pilots get their PEPs repacked just before the big contest of the year, because that is the only time they have to produce proof of maintenance. Similarly, airshow performers only get their chutes repacked out of fear that the FAA will "ding" them during a ramp check. Finally, Reno Air Racers fly less than 50 hours per year, so riggers are always in a mad rush the week before the Reno Air Races. I can tell you some amusing stories about that rush!
Hee!
Hee!

Marinho does make a good point about a longer repack cycle resulting in fewer riggers. Right now our DZ has one Master Rigger and a few part time Rigger As. In the spring time, I am so busy that I cannot do "rush" repacks. For example, last Wednesday, I said "this is the last job I will commit to this week."
This week I stopped accepting new tasks on Sunday afternoon.


JPDECHENE  (D 3258)

Apr 26, 2006, 2:08 AM
Post #19 of 31 (1463 views)
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Re: [rigger_john] 12 Month Reserve Repacks [In reply to] Can't Post

Sorry but you are wrong mentioning that Belgium has 12 months repack time.

I Belgium, things are never easy due to the different communities (Flemishs and Walloons - for those who know a litlle bit my 220 km long 150 km wide country where three different languages are spoken and where we are administrated by one national and five regional governments ...Unsure)

In the Flemish- speaking part of the country, repack cycle is still 4 months (or better 120 days) while by the Walloons - French- (and German-) speaking part of the country the repack cycle is 180 days. Problems sometimes start when you are visiting, without crossing any border, the other community, the question being : "Is your repack cycle linked to your insurance and by the way to the Federation that issued it - Sport is a competence of the regions and so Skydiving is administrated by two different Federations-? Or does local regulation apply ? "

I do not know what the rule in Kenya is but I confirm that both in France and in Germany, 12 months is the rule with a temporary exception to six months for Javelin rigs after they discovered the problem with sticky cordura back side. I believe that now that Sun Path has found the reason and issued their SB regarding a batch of red Cordura, they are now back to one year.

Anyway, discussions are in progress, at least at the European level, to try to reach a consensus and have the same regulation all around the continent.

JPD


marinho  (D 26345)

Apr 26, 2006, 3:40 PM
Post #20 of 31 (1379 views)
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Re: [riggerrob] 12 Month Reserve Repacks [In reply to] Can't Post

Thanks Rob! One thing that I forgot to mention was that I'd really like to see the number of jumps made in a year on those countries that have over 120 days reserve repacks cycle and the number of jumps made in US.
Tom,
I got your PM! Sorry, I haven't get back to you yet! We are doing some work in our gear store and trying to get this done by Friday!(I'm in a different computer)
Cheers,


mjosparky  (D 5476)

Apr 26, 2006, 3:54 PM
Post #21 of 31 (1371 views)
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Re: [marinho] 12 Month Reserve Repacks [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
One thing that I forgot to mention was that I'd really like to see the number of jumps made in a year on those countries that have over 120 days reserve repacks cycle and the number of jumps made in US.

That is an excellent point. I dont see the FAA making changes to take this factor into account but it is only common sense. More jumps equal more exposure to possible problems and more wear and tear.


sundevil777  (D License)

Apr 26, 2006, 4:04 PM
Post #22 of 31 (1367 views)
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Re: [rigger_john] 12 Month Reserve Repacks [In reply to] Can't Post

I think the only reason to keep it short would be if there actually was experience/evidence from the countries that have had longer cycles (for many years) that shows problems that a shorter cycle would have prevented.

Is there any such experience/evidence? All I hear are some people that are worried, seemingly forgetting that so many countries have been doing this for years. If there are problems in that history to be discussed, that would be interesting. To speculate as to the problems that might occur without comparing it to that history seems a waste of time.


(This post was edited by sundevil777 on Apr 26, 2006, 4:05 PM)


rigger_john  (C 101098)

Apr 27, 2006, 1:28 AM
Post #23 of 31 (1321 views)
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Re: [sundevil777] 12 Month Reserve Repacks [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
I think the only reason to keep it short would be if there actually was experience/evidence from the countries that have had longer cycles (for many years) that shows problems that a shorter cycle would have prevented.

I have not been able to find an evidence, lots of opinions both ways but it looks like in all the countries with longer repack cycles has not been found any problems, and all the data from manucfactures suggest that it's better not worse to handle the reseve as little as possible.

This is why I asked the question because I want to hear both sides of the argument.


Travman  (E License)

Apr 27, 2006, 5:31 AM
Post #24 of 31 (1287 views)
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Re: [sundevil777] 12 Month Reserve Repacks [In reply to] Can't Post

Its a cyclic argument to say that a shorter cycle means that there are more chances for a mistake or problem to be detected.
A shorter cycle also means there are more chances for a mistake or problem to be created too.


riggerrob  (D 14840)

Apr 27, 2006, 7:28 AM
Post #25 of 31 (1257 views)
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Re: [marinho] 12 Month Reserve Repacks [In reply to] Can't Post

I'd really like to see the number of jumps made in a year

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

Good Point!

If you change the repack cycle to "180 days or 180 jumps, whichever comes first." then jumpers would start lying about how FEW jumps they made.
Hee!
Hee!


(This post was edited by riggerrob on Apr 27, 2006, 7:30 AM)


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