Apr 10, 2006, 5:53 PM
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..when small bands are too big
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...waddya do? i just got my new canopy and due to the much smaller lines, i switched from big bands to small bands on the dbag. i figured that would be good, but i discovered that the last 4 stows (below the cascades) the lines are very loose and look like they would dump in a heartbeat. i don't want to double stow them, are there any other alternatives?
Apr 10, 2006, 6:04 PM
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Re: [kingbunky] ..when small bands are too big
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I have the same thing.
I used to double-wrap the last stows, but I found that be a contributing factor to linetwists. (it seemed that way anyway).
Now, I make sure the locking stows are nice and tight, and just leave the rest loose. Had good success with that - YMMV. (just make sure those locking stows are tight . breaking lines on opening isn't fun )
Apr 10, 2006, 7:19 PM
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Re: [kingbunky] ..when small bands are too big
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What bob's saying is wrap the rubberband around the d bag attachment tape twice, then through itself. The prussic knot in the attached site illustrates the concept. Don't worry about it looking good and only go around twice.
Apr 10, 2006, 7:23 PM
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Re: [kingbunky] ..when small bands are too big
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I have the same issue...7 cell and all....been doubling them...no problems yet(only 25 jumps on the new canopy) and have not heard any negitive comments from anyone at the DZ about it.
keeping the stows a consistant tension while not being too loose or tight seems to be popular...
Apr 10, 2006, 7:39 PM
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Re: [kingbunky] ..when small bands are too big
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you can buy even smaller rubber bands then what you see at the DZ. Office supply store online usually has several different sizes of those types of rubber bands.
Apr 10, 2006, 7:39 PM
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Re: [DeNReN] ..when small bands are too big
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I have the same issue...7 cell and all....been doubling them...no problems yet(only 25 jumps on the new canopy) and have not heard any negitive comments from anyone at the DZ about it.
keeping the stows a consistant tension while not being too loose or tight seems to be popular...
That's what I do, and I've had no issues with line twists at all. I don't double wrap the locking stows, and they're not loose, but not too tight.
Apr 11, 2006, 7:45 AM
Post #10 of 28
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Re: [kingbunky] ..when small bands are too big
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Use either a power tool or a pull up cord to thread things. A pull up cord would probably not damaged the rubber band as much but the power tool would give you the rigid rod and be easier. YMMV
Find a set of tube stow instructions. Follow the tighter tube stow portion.
Apr 11, 2006, 9:42 AM
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Re: [ldskydiver] ..when small bands are too big
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There are those in the industry who believe stronger stow band, either silibands, tube stows, the 8 stows from a few years agos are inappropriate for various reasons. One, not as easily broken if causing a deployment issue. Two, tube stows not gripping the lines as well with lower surface area contact. And other reasons.
I haven't offered my opinion yet. On purpose. I relate what I have seen and what I use but stay out of this debate for the most part. I use rubber bands and expect them to break routinely.
Apr 11, 2006, 2:34 PM
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Re: [councilman24] ..when small bands are too big
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In reply to:
There are those in the industry who believe stronger stow band, either silibands, tube stows, the 8 stows from a few years agos are inappropriate for various reasons. One, not as easily broken if causing a deployment issue. Two, tube stows not gripping the lines as well with lower surface area contact. And other reasons.
I haven't offered my opinion yet. On purpose. I relate what I have seen and what I use but stay out of this debate for the most part. I use rubber bands and expect them to break routinely.
So, IYO, are my SkyBands a deathtrap/cutaway waiting to happen as well?
Apr 12, 2006, 8:39 AM
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Re: [Elisha] ..when small bands are too big
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Note, I did NOT offer my opinion. I told you what others think and told you what I choose to do. BTW 'deathtrap' and 'cutaway' are not synonomous. We will for the most part all have a cutaway. For the most part we won't die from them.
I don't have any direct experience with skybands. I do have several sets of a similar heavy duty product whose name escapes me. I've chosen not to use them.
PD has a document on rubber bands on their website. Please go read that too. There are other opinions around. Gather as much information as you can and make a decision. For the most part, (THIS IS OPINION) the advantages of anything other than rubber bands are durability and style. Preventing line dump better may or may not be a property of any particular stow device.
No, I'm not saying they are a deathtrap. I am saying there may be disadvantages along with perceived or real advantages.
Apr 13, 2006, 10:44 AM
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Re: [kingbunky] ..when small bands are too big
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I'm no rigger ...
From PD's website:
"…the stow must be held fairly tightly so that they are only released in the proper order. To check your stows on the ground, it should take a minimum of 8 pounds, and ideally 12 pounds of force to unstow the lines pulling the bag across a smooth surface by the bridle. (The emphasis should be toward 12 pounds) Use a fish scale on the bridle to check this. Larger, heavier canopies will require more force, as does a canopy deployed at higher speeds. (This test is important to know how well your stow bands will hold your lines.) You can tighten your stows if they are too loose. If you use Tube Stoes, look at the instructions that were included with them. Follow the instructions labeled “For tighter Tube Stoes”. Rubber bands can be tightened in the same way. Replace Tube Stoes or rubber bands that appear worn. Do not wait until they break! The line stows must have between 2 1/2 and 3 inches of line through each stow."
------------------------ So... Small bands too loose? a) double-wrap the band Double-wrapped small bands too tight? b) Use larger bands and double-wrap.
Note: I was taught to NOT double-wrap locking stows.
(This post was edited by popsjumper on Apr 13, 2006, 10:44 AM)
Apr 13, 2006, 4:40 PM
Post #17 of 28
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Re: [popsjumper] ..when small bands are too big
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ote: I was taught to NOT double-wrap locking stows. ---
I was told by a very experienced factory test pilot to use big rubberbands and double wrap them all. I have over 1000 jumps this way and have never personally seen a problem. I have also packed over 15000 rigs this way and have not seen a problem.
Apr 13, 2006, 4:56 PM
Post #18 of 28
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Re: [councilman24] ..when small bands are too big
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Anyone:
I use small bands and double-wrap all but the first two locking stows (as per rigger's suggestion). Obviously I don't have a problem with them being too loose, but could they be too tight? I fly a Sabre1 170 and it takes a good 1000 ft from pitch to saddle, and there's not too much snivel. But it seems like it takes a long time before I get pulled upright. Could that be attributed to the tight bands? (by the way, I have a brand new PC and I make sure to give it a good toss)
Thanks Dan
(This post was edited by dmetz on Apr 13, 2006, 4:59 PM)
Apr 13, 2006, 6:22 PM
Post #19 of 28
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Re: [dmetz] ..when small bands are too big
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Your pilot chute developes something like 120 lbs (rough est.) of force. Do you really think the rubber bands are holding up to that?
I can't say I've heard of a Sabre 1 taking that long to open. Mine takes more like 300 ft. Are you getting your PC into clean air? Or doing a wimpy toss and leaving it on your back?
Tight rubber bands have been blamed for a lot of problems but I don't think thats one of them.
Apr 13, 2006, 6:32 PM
Post #20 of 28
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Re: [councilman24] ..when small bands are too big
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Your pilot chute developes something like 120 lbs (rough est.) of force. Do you really think the rubber bands are holding up to that?
No. It doesn't seem as though they would.
In reply to:
Are you getting your PC into clean air?
In reply to:
Yes.
Or doing a wimpy toss and leaving it on your back?
No. I know, because I've done that before and it took about 1500 ft to open; and that one was scarey enough for me to pay attention to my throw every time now.
In reply to:
I can't say I've heard of a Sabre 1 taking that long to open.
Mine takes about 1000ft every time. Really.
In reply to:
Tight rubber bands have been blamed for a lot of problems but I don't think thats one of them.
Apr 13, 2006, 8:46 PM
Post #23 of 28
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Re: [dmetz] ..when small bands are too big
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One thing that can cause a Sabre or any shaped nose canopy to open slow is sticking cells into the center cell.
Some people when packing roll each side of the nose to the center and then tuck the rolled cells into the center cell. Because the top skin overhangs the nose this can trap the rolled cells and cause very slow openings. This is not recommended. If you think your doing this have a very experienced jumper, instructor or rigger show you what I'm talking about and what not to do.
If you are doing this and stop, hang on to your hat when you open the first time without doing it.
Actually, I doubt if your doing this if it's consistently taking a 1000' to open.
Apr 13, 2006, 9:46 PM
Post #24 of 28
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Re: [councilman24] ..when small bands are too big
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Hay Dmetz, How often do you have to change broken rubber bands? Often?
Personaly I do not double stow any lines on my rig. I change worn bands before they break. My Pilot takes fairly long to inflate, but double stows will not realy add to a snivel. The position of the slider and the nose will more than likley determine a longer snivel.
Once, I knew this dude with a Velo. He would make up his locking stows ONLY. Then Figure 8 the rest of the lines in the tray like a base rig. He perfered the openings and stated he found to have less likley line twist on deployment. That the reason I don't double stow on my rig, line twist, However YMMV.
Apr 13, 2006, 10:00 PM
Post #25 of 28
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Re: [NelKel] ..when small bands are too big
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Once, I knew this dude with a Velo. He would make up his locking stows ONLY. Then Figure 8 the rest of the lines in the tray like a base rig. He perfered the openings and stated he found to have less likley line twist on deployment. That the reason I don't double stow on my rig, line twist, However YMMV.
Aaaaah, youngsters. We stoped free stowing lines 20 plus years ago. Only leads to grief.
. breaking lines on opening isn't fun 
) 
We will for the most part all have a cutaway. For the most part we won't die from them.
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