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Question about Far's and intentional cutaway's?

 


Rdutch  (D 24618)

Jan 30, 2003, 7:13 AM
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Question about Far's and intentional cutaway's? Can't Post

At the Pia yesterday, there was an awesome video from one of the Canopy manufacturers doing intentional cutaways. There was a really good shot of a gostplane performed with the upper skydiver's doing a MR. Bill and the camera man slid over the top of the lower canopy then as he fell off head down, the lower skydiver cut away and they flew for a few seconds together until the reserve was deployed.

Ok but here is the question? I couldn't help notice that all of the cutaway's were performed with a regular sport rig, and not an intentional cutaway rig with 3 canopies. Isnt an intentional cutaway not allowed based on the far's without a backup chute?
It was killer video but not very responsible if you ask me. Just curious.


skycat  (D 25740)

Jan 30, 2003, 7:17 AM
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Re: [Rdutch] Question about Far's and intentional cutaway's? [In reply to] Can't Post

Actually it has 3 canopies. All 3 of them just happen to be on your back.

Bill Von and HooknSwoop can explain better than me how the actual system works.


Rdutch  (D 24618)

Jan 30, 2003, 7:29 AM
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Re: [skycat] Question about Far's and intentional cutaway's? [In reply to] Can't Post

You can clearly see in the video, that the reserve risers were attatched to the container permanently in the video, unless they designed a new internal non 3 ring release system. But after watching the video about 4 times and my friend (A master rigger with about 50 intentional cutaway's of his own) and I both came to the conclusion that it wasn't possible for there to be another reserve on the jumper.
There was actually another conversation about it later that I overheard from other people.


Hooknswoop  (D License)

Jan 30, 2003, 8:44 AM
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Re: [Rdutch] Question about Far's and intentional cutaway's? [In reply to] Can't Post

Very possible that there wasn't a third canopy. I know people that cutaway and deploy their reserves at re-pack time. NOT RECOMMENDED for a number of reasons. A friend of mine watched someone go in with a reserve bag lock after cutting away a perfectly good canopy (he was kown for doing this).

That being said, Billy Weber did a bunch of cutaways for "Malfunction". The third canopy was under the main, ripcord activated. Very slick rig, except that the first main had to be deployed in order to get the last chance out. He could cutaway the reserve w/ outboard tandem style handles.

Hook


chadair  (D 24104)

Jan 30, 2003, 10:04 AM
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Re: [Rdutch] Question about Far's and intentional cutaway's? [In reply to] Can't Post

I remember reading in the FARs a sport jumper must have a single harness dual parachute system to jump from an aircraft, however I do not recall the FARs saying that you were not allowed to use both. Sly
How do you know if it works if you dont try it?


JeffGordon  (D 24650)

Jan 30, 2003, 11:36 AM
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Re: [Hooknswoop] Question about Far's and intentional cutaway's? [In reply to] Can't Post

Yeah. I know a couple of guys that did a Mr. Bill, cut away, Did a Second Mr. Bill, and then deployed the reserve.


Hooknswoop  (D License)

Jan 30, 2003, 12:21 PM
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Re: [chadair] Question about Far's and intentional cutaway's? [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
How do you know if it works if you dont try it?

Demo, trust your rigger, or better yet, become one. I do not want "Cutaway a perfectly good canopy and the reserve malfunctioned" on my toombstone. Just not worth the risk, especially when I own a cutaway rig.

Hook


cs_source  (B 26)

Apr 7, 2006, 1:58 AM
Post #8 of 18 (1414 views)
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Re: [Hooknswoop] Question about Far's and intentional cutaway's? [In reply to] Can't Post

I mean, this is only my opinion, a skydiver which cutting away his fully opened main canopy without 2nd reserve has mentally disturbed... for one of that reason (baglocked reserve).
sorry, my English isnt good.


mark  (D 6108)

Apr 7, 2006, 6:06 AM
Post #9 of 18 (1376 views)
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Re: [Rdutch] Question about Far's and intentional cutaway's? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
the reserve risers were attached to the container ... a new internal non 3 ring release system

I recently saw a test rig with short reserve risers ending in the base ring of a 3-ring. The risers were just long enough for the ring to be inside the reserve container. A second set of very short risers could be attached, resulting in a standard-length assembly. With the container closed, it would look very similar to a normal rig.

Mark


riggerrob  (D 14840)

Apr 7, 2006, 9:49 AM
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Re: [mark] Question about Far's and intentional cutaway's? [In reply to] Can't Post

Doing intentional cutaways without a third canopy is dangerous, bordering on STUPID! Especially when you consider how many different ways there are to attach a third canopy to your existing harness.

Most old-school jumpers just clip on an old chest-mounted reserve when doing intentional cutaways. If they cannot sew extra D-rings on their existing harness ,some of them even wear a second harness under their regular harness. The configuration is bulky and awkward, but it is legal.
They look like they are pregnant or "shop-lifting water melons", but at least they are being cautious.
I suppose you could design a low-profile chest-mounted reserve. It would not be certified (i.e. TSOed) but at least you would conform with the intent of the law.

However there are several ways to rig extra canopies that are not apparent to all but the sharpest observer.

1. Attach two sets of (mini) main risers to regular-sized 3-rings. "Shopping bag" deploy, static-line, buddy deploy, etc. the first/test main canopy. The extra main d-bag does not even have to be attached to your harness. Just hold it in your hands and toss it as you fall away from the airplane. When you get bored with the test canopy, cut it away then deploy your regular main canopy from your regular main container.

2. Sew or zipper an extra main container below your regular main container. This looks like the "BOC from hell." Deploy that with a left-handed, throw-out pilot chute. Cut it away when you get bored (cue evil laughter), then deploy your regular main with a pilot chute mounted on your right hip.

3. Start with the largest student container you can find. Sew in a second pack tray - half the thickness of the main container. Pack your regular main and secure it with the extra flap. Stuff your regular main pilot chute in the regular BOC. Pack the second/test/junk canopy into a second d-bag and stuff its pilot chute into a left-hand BOC. Deploy the first/test/junk canopy first and when you tire of it, cut it away and you are back to deploying your regular main in the regular manner.
I built a pair of these (much modified Telesis F18 containers) for the Canadian Army Team - a decade ago - so they could do intentional cutaways at airshows.

Note: the smoothest way to rig risers - for intentional cutaways - is to sew an extra set of RW-1 or RW-8 harness rings onto your main risers, so that you can cutaway both main canopies with one pull on a red handle.


Premier billvon  (D 16479)
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Apr 7, 2006, 11:13 AM
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Re: [riggerrob] Question about Far's and intentional cutaway's? [In reply to] Can't Post

>1. Attach two sets of (mini) main risers to regular-sized 3-
>rings. "Shopping bag" deploy, static-line, buddy deploy, etc. the
> first/test main canopy.

This is what I usually do. I started out just holding onto the main and exiting; now I have a neat chest-mount container that Derek built (complete with a BOC pouch!) to do the same thing. Cutaway handles are on the risers themselves.

>2. Sew or zipper an extra main container below your regular main
> container. This looks like the "BOC from hell." Deploy that with a
> left-handed, throw-out pilot chute.

I've also seen this done as "The Wad." Pack the whole canopy as if it was a pilot chute in a big pouch. Stow the lines in a tailpocket. (Obviously works better on smaller canopies.)


skrovi  (D 29976)

Apr 7, 2006, 12:01 PM
Post #12 of 18 (1265 views)
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Re: [Rdutch] Question about Far's and intentional cutaway's? [In reply to] Can't Post

Could you pl. provide with the link to that video on intentional cutaway. I would be curious to see how the whole thing works?


councilman24  (D 8631)

Apr 7, 2006, 12:03 PM
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Re: [billvon] Question about Far's and intentional cutaway's? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
This is what I usually do. I started out just holding onto the main and exiting; now I have a neat chest-mount container that Derek built (complete with a BOC pouch!) to do the same thing. Cutaway handles are on the risers themselves.

Bill,

I made a chest container like this in the 80's. I sewed mounting loops for separable three ring harness rings to the main lift webs of an old northern lite. Throw out pouch on the bottom of the chest container. Container tie downs like a pop top. Cutway cables sewn to each riser. Really like this system because your not obligated to open the cutaway canopy to deploy the main you plan on landing. And after you cutaway your back in freefall with a normal rig. BUT, I couldn't figure out an easy way to get the container to leave with the canopy. The flaps would cover handles. Does your container leave with the canopy? If so, how is it rigged.

I expect I could figure it out now, 20 years later, but just wonder how yours is rigged.Wink


mnealtx  (B 30496)

Apr 7, 2006, 12:31 PM
Post #14 of 18 (1254 views)
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Re: [councilman24] Question about Far's and intentional cutaway's? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
This is what I usually do. I started out just holding onto the main and exiting; now I have a neat chest-mount container that Derek built (complete with a BOC pouch!) to do the same thing. Cutaway handles are on the risers themselves.

Bill,

I made a chest container like this in the 80's. I sewed mounting loops for separable three ring harness rings to the main lift webs of an old northern lite. Throw out pouch on the bottom of the chest container. Container tie downs like a pop top. Cutway cables sewn to each riser. Really like this system because your not obligated to open the cutaway canopy to deploy the main you plan on landing. And after you cutaway your back in freefall with a normal rig. BUT, I couldn't figure out an easy way to get the container to leave with the canopy. The flaps would cover handles. Does your container leave with the canopy? If so, how is it rigged.

I expect I could figure it out now, 20 years later, but just wonder how yours is rigged.Wink

I think with getting rid of an entire chest mount, I'd be worried about getting "smacked in da mouf" when it departed...

How about using extra long risers and two set of rings? Have the risers be part of the pack tray and the cutaway handle for the tertiary pull both sets? You'd have to have a little bit of slack between the top/bottom attachments to keep the geometry right, though. For that matter, you wouldn't really need much of anything to hold the bottom of the tertiary in place, if the main load was at the second set of large rings?


Premier faulknerwn  (D 17441)
Moderator
Apr 7, 2006, 1:12 PM
Post #15 of 18 (1241 views)
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Re: [mnealtx] Question about Far's and intentional cutaway's? [In reply to] Can't Post

I've got 3 rigs where Jumpshack sewed on a place to stow an extra set of D-rings for intentional cutaways. Have a real nice cutaway system which hangs off of the chest strap. I normally just leave facing the tail and deploy the pilot chute and bag that I left holding onto.

I can cutaway either/both of the mains that I have then freely without interference. Works quite well.

W


mnealtx  (B 30496)

Apr 7, 2006, 1:18 PM
Post #16 of 18 (1235 views)
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Re: [faulknerwn] Question about Far's and intentional cutaway's? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
I've got 3 rigs where Jumpshack sewed on a place to stow an extra set of D-rings for intentional cutaways. Have a real nice cutaway system which hangs off of the chest strap. I normally just leave facing the tail and deploy the pilot chute and bag that I left holding onto.

I can cutaway either/both of the mains that I have then freely without interference. Works quite well.

W

Howdy Wendy!

I think he was wanting a self-contained tertiary that could be cutaway in it's entirety, container and all. The only way i could see to get rid of the whole thing cleanly would be a double 3 ring setup, where the bottom of the container get released before the tertiary risers do, and the tertiary container built on the bottom of an extra long set of risers.

I'd still be worried about that "smack in da mouf" as it goes bye-bye, though...


eUrNiCc  (D 28406)

Apr 10, 2006, 8:34 AM
Post #17 of 18 (1139 views)
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Re: [mnealtx] Question about Far's and intentional cutaway's? [In reply to] Can't Post

Strong has a intentional cutaway rig called a "Tridem" with three canopies on the back. The first main is on the bottom and deployed with a traditional BOC. The cutaway handles for this canopy are outboard, just like a strong tandem. The outboard silver handle deploys the second main (middle) by spring loaded PC. The third canopy is a traditional reserve.

If you could get your hands on two of these rigs you could do some bizarre jumps... Just think, a traditional Mr. Bill -> chop jumper 1's main -> deploy jumper 2's main -> chop it -> deploy jumper 1's secondary main -> then have jumper 2 bail and open their secondary. Crazy


LawnDart21  (D License)

Apr 10, 2006, 9:22 AM
Post #18 of 18 (1128 views)
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Re: [eUrNiCc] Question about Far's and intentional cutaway's? [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
If you could get your hands on two of these rigs you could do some bizarre jumps...

The exact reason why the Tridem is only used for tandem candidates in need of a cutaway to qualify for the TICC. Wink



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