Forums: Skydiving: Gear and Rigging:
Odyssey built after end of 2003 reserve pilot chute launch in question

 


frenchyeric

Mar 31, 2006, 9:10 AM
Post #1 of 18 (1578 views)
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Odyssey built after end of 2003 reserve pilot chute launch in question Can't Post

I watched a reserve table tested on a Javelin Odyssey made after 2003. it looks obvious that the modification Sunpath made on the location of the top flap is an issue :
when you manually open the reserve on a table ( not stand up), to simulate the perfect body position at the time you will open the reserve, the reserve pilot chute does not launch so much, disturbed because the top of the pilot chute pushes very high on the top flap reserve, which is not at the same location than before end of 2003 on Odyssey, it results by having the spring loosing power to push the flaps and then the same reserve top flap once is open has a tendancy ( like a memory) to come down in place where he was, by doing so he easily catch any coils of the spring reserve pilot chute , disturbing more the launch.
At the end when you watch the reserve pilot chute launch after manually opening, the propulsion does not bring him very high, which should be catastrophic in case of reserve opening by the cutter, because then the energy the spring pilot chute will loose to spread the flaps will not be enough to insure a good launch and probably the reserve bridle will rely..
If you try to make the same test by pulling the reserve handle il a stand up position , then the reserve pilot chute comes down because the weight under gravitation effect.
Does it make sense to anyone and does anyone else notice that too.
only on Odyssey after end oif 2003


marinho  (D 26345)

Mar 31, 2006, 10:27 AM
Post #2 of 18 (1519 views)
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Re: [frenchyeric] Odyssey built after end of 2003 reserve pilot chute launch in question [In reply to] Can't Post

Hi,
Just contact the manufacturer and tell them your concerns!Wink
I never saw a problem like you mentioned on any javelin so far.
We don't need to go through all the specs, poor rigging, test standards and any thing that can contribute to make this problem happen because we'll be talking forever by the fact of a huge diversity of opinions that will pop up on this forum.
Just be careful when posting things like this because a lot of people will think that their javelins have some kind of problem and let me tell you, that's not cool!
Peace and cheers,


(This post was edited by marinho on Mar 31, 2006, 10:30 AM)


Premier GravityGirl  (D 18897)

Mar 31, 2006, 11:19 AM
Post #3 of 18 (1478 views)
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Re: [frenchyeric] Odyssey built after end of 2003 reserve pilot chute launch in question [In reply to] Can't Post

Did you also simulate 120 MPH of wind in your test?


badlock

Mar 31, 2006, 11:28 AM
Post #4 of 18 (1468 views)
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Re: [GravityGirl] Odyssey built after end of 2003 reserve pilot chute launch in question [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Did you also simulate 120 MPH of wind in your test?

I don't think that his concerns are rubbish because a weak spring loaded PC maybe never reaches the 120 mph wind due to a hesitation (caused by the "dirty air" of the jumpers back...).
Imagine: During a Cypresfire a PC maybe has 1, maybe 2 seconds to launch.
Another 2 seconds are eaten up by line strech and inflation of the reserve chute.
And what happens if you have a 3-second pc hesitation due to a weak spring? IMPACT...


hookitt  (D License)

Mar 31, 2006, 11:31 AM
Post #5 of 18 (1465 views)
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Re: [frenchyeric] Odyssey built after end of 2003 reserve pilot chute launch in question [In reply to] Can't Post

 

Bench tests should be done while wearing the rig. Simulating a cutaway, or reserve pull while the rig is laying flat on a table is not very accurate.

Close it back up, put the rig on, lay face down, and perform the test again. Let us know if there is any difference.


Premier GravityGirl  (D 18897)

Mar 31, 2006, 12:36 PM
Post #6 of 18 (1437 views)
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Re: [badlock] Odyssey built after end of 2003 reserve pilot chute launch in question [In reply to] Can't Post

I didn't say his findings were rubbish. I didn't say anything one way or another. I just want more details on what conditions were used for testing.


frenchyeric

Apr 1, 2006, 12:41 AM
Post #7 of 18 (1345 views)
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Re: [hookitt] Odyssey built after end of 2003 reserve pilot chute launch in question [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
thinking about your remark, it makes sense, I agree with you, it was not the perfect way, I am going to try again with the body inside the rig ,it is more realistic and it can make a difference due to the shape of the shoulder, thanks , I will let you know about new testing...
good and positive advice...
Bench tests should be done while wearing the rig. Simulating a cutaway, or reserve pull while the rig is laying flat on a table is not very accurate.

Close it back up, put the rig on, lay face down, and perform the test again. Let us know if there is any difference.


piisfish

Apr 1, 2006, 7:46 AM
Post #8 of 18 (1288 views)
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Re: [GravityGirl] Odyssey built after end of 2003 reserve pilot chute launch in question [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Did you also simulate 120 MPH of wind in your test?
do you always have terminal velocity when opening your reserve ??

I only had 1 reserve ride and I know it wasn't terminal.


Premier slotperfect  (D 13014)

Apr 1, 2006, 8:09 AM
Post #9 of 18 (1283 views)
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Re: [frenchyeric] Odyssey built after end of 2003 reserve pilot chute launch in question [In reply to] Can't Post

My suggestion is that you contact Aggie Haggas or Derek Thomas at Sun Path to discuss your issue. If there is a real problem your pointing it out could help a lot of other skydivers. If there is a clear explanation for your issue, you may find it in the course of the conversation. Regardless of the outcome, please post your results here.

Sun Path
(813) 782-9242
http://www.sunpath.com/forms/frm_contact.htm


Orange1  (B 2638)

Apr 1, 2006, 8:28 AM
Post #10 of 18 (1276 views)
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Re: [piisfish] Odyssey built after end of 2003 reserve pilot chute launch in question [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
[I only had 1 reserve ride and I know it wasn't terminal.

were you belly to earth?


Premier GravityGirl  (D 18897)

Apr 1, 2006, 3:00 PM
Post #11 of 18 (1241 views)
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Re: [Orange1] Odyssey built after end of 2003 reserve pilot chute launch in question [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
[I only had 1 reserve ride and I know it wasn't terminal.

were you belly to earth?

Orange: Thank you. My thoughts exactly.

Piisfish: Okay. I'll rephrase. "Was there ANY airflow involved in the testing?"

I have gotten some very defensive answers to my question. It was a simple question. One that I asked because I want to know the parameters of the test. Not because I wanted to discredit or credit the test. Just because I wanted more information.


frenchyeric

Apr 3, 2006, 8:52 AM
Post #12 of 18 (1129 views)
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Re: [frenchyeric] Odyssey built after end of 2003 reserve pilot chute launch in question [In reply to] Can't Post

so far after testing a different method than the video tape made by some deutsch people( bench table but body inside the rig) by manually deployment, it shows nothing wrong on the reserve pilot chute's launch. rigs were made after august 2003... some packjobs were 3 months old and some other 12 months old.


marinho  (D 26345)

Apr 3, 2006, 9:25 AM
Post #13 of 18 (1118 views)
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Re: [frenchyeric] Odyssey built after end of 2003 reserve pilot chute launch in question [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
so far after testing a different method than the video tape made by some deutsch people( bench table but body inside the rig) by manually deployment, it shows nothing wrong on the reserve pilot chute's launch. rigs were made after august 2003... some packjobs were 3 months old and some other 12 months old.

Good job and thanks for bringing up your concerns!
Cheers,


dragon2  (D 101989)

Apr 6, 2006, 10:57 AM
Post #14 of 18 (1001 views)
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Re: [frenchyeric] Odyssey built after end of 2003 reserve pilot chute launch in question [In reply to] Can't Post

We just had a technical bulletin come out:
http://www.parachute.nl/tb200602.html (in Dutch).

Basically it says to change the new design reserve top flap to the old:
http://www.parachute.nl/...Flap_replacement.pdf


(This post was edited by dragon2 on Apr 6, 2006, 12:03 PM)


marinho  (D 26345)

Apr 6, 2006, 12:02 PM
Post #15 of 18 (976 views)
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Re: [dragon2] Odyssey built after end of 2003 reserve pilot chute launch in question [In reply to] Can't Post

Hi,
Thanks for posting the service bulletin. It's very instructional!
The only problem is that this service bulletin "does not apply" for any sun path container! I contacted Sun Path and they confirmed that there are no problems related to this issue.
Actually, Sun Path also said that they sent a DVD with instructions, that it will be available on their web site soon, to the people that performed that bench test.
Only Sun Path has the authority to issue any service bulletin for their products.
Unfortunately, people and associations overseas can "issue" service bulletins without the manufacturer's permission. I agree and disagree with that, but hey that's not my problem!Angelic
Just to end this issue:
"There are no service bulletins issued by Sun Path related to poor reserve pilot chute launch".
Cheers,


USPA  (D 81812)

Apr 6, 2006, 4:25 PM
Post #16 of 18 (922 views)
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Re: [marinho] Odyssey built after end of 2003 reserve pilot chute launch in question [In reply to] Can't Post

This is a technical bulletin, which in the Dutch system means you don't have to comply. I personally wouldn't comply simply because the manufactorer doesn't endorce it.

The problem in The Netherlands is that we only have about 10-15 riggers, and 2 influential riggers have pushed this bulletin. (Hi guys, I know you are reading this, no offence, correct me if I'm wrong, but this is what I am told, by different sources). Although I have been asking around, I have yet to have seen a demonstration of this "problem". Of what I've been told (put this is a very big hear-say) the demonstration involves a.o. a modification to keep the rig close, but since I haven't seen a demonstration yet, i cannot confirm this.

This bulletin was "announced" in the bar-gossip circuit, so there has been some talk already, but the official bulletin is only just release (I have yet to receive it).

The bulletin issued basically says, about communication with manufactorer, that the manufactorer doesn't recognize our 6 months repack cycle and therefore doesn't want to look into the "problem". (or at least, this is what is implied, the way I read it).

Personally I think the opening post is very strange in the light of this bulletin, it's a little too much coincidence, also since the TS has only posted in this topic. I pressume the IP will be a dutch one.

I suggest this topic should be closed, untill in The Netherlands things are cleared up or Sunpath has an official reaction. Too much politics involved here and maybe more suited on the dutch skydivers forum (http://www.paraforum.nl)


marinho  (D 26345)

Apr 7, 2006, 5:28 AM
Post #17 of 18 (871 views)
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Re: [USPA] Odyssey built after end of 2003 reserve pilot chute launch in question [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Personally I think the opening post is very strange in the light of this bulletin, it's a little too much coincidence, also since the TS has only posted in this topic. I pressume the IP will be a dutch one.

I suggest this topic should be closed, untill in The Netherlands things are cleared up or Sunpath has an official reaction. Too much politics involved here and maybe more suited on the dutch skydivers forum (http://www.paraforum.nl)

Agreed!!! Let me just explain my reaction for this post! As a FAA Parachute Rigger, since the beggining of my rigging career, I was instructed to follow this procedure:
- Have a question - Contact the manufacturer!
- Don't have a manual - Contact the manufacturer!
- Concerns? - Contact the manufacturer!
- SBs - Contact the manufacturer!
And finally, you are not in charge to make mods or anything that's not approved by the manufacturer.
I think this is the most simple dutie a rigger has!
Cheers,


USPA  (D 81812)

Apr 7, 2006, 6:42 AM
Post #18 of 18 (854 views)
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Re: [marinho] Odyssey built after end of 2003 reserve pilot chute launch in question [In reply to] Can't Post

Since the topic isn't closed (yet). I will try to put the Dutch (and Dutch only! technical (Not mandatory!)) bulletin translation here:

--------------------------
Technical bulletin 2006-02

Date: 6 april 2006

Replaces: N.A.

Concerning: Javelin Odyssey's, fitted with a topflap, which is, including stiffener plate, sawed into the binding of the reserve container. This concerns a change in the productionproces of the Javelin Odyssey's, which have been put on the market since the end of 2003. (Note from translator: doesn't specifiy when excatly)

Problem: The extra resitance which is caused by the though sewed-in topflap, can cause the reserve pilot chute not to "jump up" enough after activation. The quick recoil of this flap could lead to the possibility, that the pilot chute would hook on to it. This could cause a delay, or malfunction of the reserve opening.

Solution: Replacement by the above described topflap by the original design, which also can be retrofit acoording to this design.

To be excuted by: Rigger / manufactorer.

Note: There has been intesive communications with the manufactorer the last weeks. His (it's ?) advice for trouble free pilot chute launches, is the follow the in the USA applicable 120 day repack cycle, in combination with a correctly sized reserve and reserve loop.

For Systems which aren't modified acoording to this bulletion and addendumm the technical comitee advises to follow these recomandations

--------------------

The strange thing also; The addendum speaks of a FAA master rigger or foreign equivalant, but the bulletin is only applicable to members of the dutch skydiving association, in which only the dutch riggers are recognized. Unlike the US system, riggers have no legal authority what so ever. (Although, all skydivers in the Netherlands are member of the KNVvL and therefore this can ben enforced, when it would be a safety bulletin instead of a technical bulletin.)


(This post was edited by USPA on Apr 7, 2006, 6:44 AM)



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