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RSLs

 

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GeekStreak  (Student)

Jun 11, 2001, 12:03 PM
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RSLs Can't Post

I've read several comments on RSLs and I'd like to open the topic here.

From a safety perspective, what is your opinion on them... likes/dislikes?

Is one-sided better than 2?

Thanks in advance Smile

1111,
GeekStreak


OmriMon  (C 32176)

Jun 11, 2001, 12:22 PM
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In reply to:
Is one-sided better than 2?
If we r already talking about it, what is the difference between a 2 sided RSL and a one side RSL?

Free Skies,
Omri Crazy


lazerq3  (C -34113)

Jun 11, 2001, 4:37 PM
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Here is one aspect that I was told on RSL's. People who fly smaller high performance canopys tend to stay away from RSL's do to the fact that they (the canopy)can induce high speed spins if certain malfunctions occure usaully putting them on there backs and making for an unstable opening if the reserve is deployment imediatly after cutting away. where as with bigger chutes the spins may not be as violent therefore making the jumper a little more stable upon release. This is just one point on RSL's I was told about. I am not and expert on this subjuct but only relaying what I was told by another jumper.

jason



PalmettoTiger

Jun 11, 2001, 5:32 PM
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In reply to:
If we r already talking about it, what is the difference between a 2 sided RSL and a one side RSL?
My understanding is that 2-sided RSLs attach on each shoulder, so that if a riser breaks, your RSL won't deploy your reserve until you cutaway the remaining riser. Not sure if there are any other issues involved.

FYI if you hear of someone referring to a Stevens Device or a Stevens Lanyard, that's just another name for RSL.



Blues, Squares,
PTiger

*insert sub-100 character sig here*


Aviatrr  (D 27349)

Jun 11, 2001, 8:52 PM
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Re: RSLs [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
I've read several comments on RSLs and I'd like to open the topic here.

From a safety perspective, what is your opinion on them... likes/dislikes?
Ahh, the ole' RSL debate. It seems to come up every other month or so.

Personally, I do not use an RSL. I feel that the RSL is more of a danger than a help for me personally. I do not feel that way regarding an RSL's use for everybody. If I cutaway, I want to have the option of deploying my reserve immediately, or taking a few seconds to get stable first. RSL's are designed to deploy the reserve immediately following a cutaway. They do that job well. Unfortunately, they do not discriminate. If there is still a main canopy out there - such as if a line or riser is snaged on something - the reserve will fire into it. If a person is VERY unstable after a cutaway(such as a high speed spinning malfunction under a highly loaded elliptical), the reserve bridle or PC could catch on something(arm, leg) and entangle, keeping it from ever extracting the reserve from the freebag.

I don't tell anybody whether or not they should be using an RSL. It is an individual choice. I believe it is a good idea for students and relatively inexperienced jumpers to use an RSL. You will find that lots of jumpers have different opinions on this subject, for very different reasons. I jump relatively lightly loaded, medium performance canopies - up to around 1.4 to 1.5 - but feel that an RSL would not benefit me in most situations. Alan(gear forum moderator) jumps an extremely high performance canopy - I believe loaded around 2.4 - and he DOES use an RSL. He has decided that an RSL is a good thing and has more benefits than drawbacks. Difference of opinion - but nobody is wrong in this case. It's an individual decision.

Try asking Alan about his take on RSL's in the Gear forum. He has a whole lot more experience than I do, and that's what that forum is for.

Mike



Zennie

Jun 11, 2001, 9:21 PM
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In reply to:
Ahh, the ole' RSL debate. It seems to come up every other month or so.
When I got off student status I talked to my instructor about it. He had one question for me:

"When the time comes, will you pull the silver handle?"

I said "Yep."

He said, "Well there you go."


------------
Blue Skies!

Zennie


freeflyguy  (D 24207)

Jun 11, 2001, 10:49 PM
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Re: RSLs [In reply to] Can't Post

My take on it is this.

If you have a cypress. You may not want an RSL. I would never completely trust the cypress, but on the other hand, it will probably work. If I have time to cutaway, I will likely have time to stabalize and deploy the reserve. I would like to wait a bit before I did so. If I don't deploy, the cypress will. However, if I make a bonehead move, without a cypress, and cutaway too low, I would rather have the RSL to deploy as soon as possible.

My thoughts.



RemiAndKaren  (C 2328)

Jun 12, 2001, 2:42 AM
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I dont agree on your Cypres/rsl comment FFG...

A RSL is designed to open your reserve when you cut away.

A Cypres is designed to open your reserve if your are in freefall at 750 feet.

These actions are not the same, and if you can pull your cutaway handle, I really dont think that you should even have in the back of your mind the cypress as a backup.

Both these systems are back ups to normal procedures. They are added equipment, and as such, add some safety and some complexity (and with complexity comes added chaces of things not working).

Peronally, I have a Cypres but no RSL, but do not see these piece of gear as related. ANd agree with most of the posts up there, it should be your call and decission.







GeekStreak  (Student)

Jun 12, 2001, 7:22 AM
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Thanks for all the great feedback Smile. The reason I asked is this... I've been thinking about what kind of gear to buy when I'm ready and I feel that an RSL would be more of a hindrance in a dual deployment or jumper entanglement mal. The high-speed spin sounds like another valid reason to take the "do it yourself" approach to reserve deployment, even though I do not plan to fly an HP elliptical canopy.

There's another thread addressing AAD usage. I'll probably use one. Nuff said about that Wink.

I have absolutely no doubt in my mind that I will pull the silver handle when needed. As an SL student jumping from 3,500' there is not a lot of time to think about what to do with an RSL in a mal. The student rigs where I jump are not equipped with them, and I have mentally and physically rehearsed what to do for different types of mals over and over. I even picture myself falling calmly between pulling red and silver. After all, I'm jumping for fun, not to plant myself in farmer McNasty's bean field Smile.

So, for now, No RSL. No fear.

Thanks everybody!

1111,
GeekStreak


jfields  (C 33595)

Jun 12, 2001, 8:14 AM
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Re: RSLs [In reply to] Can't Post

GeekStreak,

You probably have more jumps than I do, but I'll throw in my $.02 also....

I have an RSL on my rig. It came with it, which I considered a plus. Since I'm not that experienced of a jumper, I think the pros outweigh the cons. If I'm going into situations where this changes (CReW, big-ways, etc.), I can also disconnect it before that jump. Since my rig came with the RSL, I can use it or not. If I had to spend additional cash (jump tickets) to have it installed, I would at this point, but probably not once I'm more experienced.

I don't really factor the RSL into my training for high-speed mals. I'll pull the red then silver myself, whether the RSL has already worked or not.

Justin
"If it can't kill you, it isn't worth doing."


GeekStreak  (Student)

Jun 12, 2001, 8:23 AM
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LOL!!! If I have more jumps, you have ONE or NONE! Smile
In reply to:
I can also disconnect it before that jump.
I didn't know you could do that... Something to consider.

Dude, you live in Rockville? I live in Columbia. Do you jump at Delmarva or Orange?

1111,
GeekStreak

<FONT SIZE=-1><EM>Edited by GeekStreak on 6/12/01 08:27 AM.</EM></FONT>


jfields  (C 33595)

Jun 12, 2001, 8:43 AM
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GeekStreak,

I live in Rockville and jump at Delmarva. I'm actually taking off work this Thursday and Friday to go to the June Fest Boogie. Wahoo!

Now I need to go home and start rolling the coins I'm going to cash in at the bank. I bet I have at least enough change for a jump ticket or two in my piggy bank. Smile

What about you? What DZ do you go to? Are you jumping this weekend?

In reply to:
LOL!!! If I have more jumps, you have ONE or NONE!
Well, maybe not, but I'm sure no "skygod".



Justin
"If it can't kill you, it isn't worth doing."


riggerrob  (D 14840)

Jun 12, 2001, 8:49 AM
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I would rather have an inflated reserve with a bad case of line twists, than impact at line stretch!
Most rigs have single-sided RSLs.
Racers, ATOMS and a few other rigs have double-sided RSLs. Racer RSLs are controversial. On Racers, one piece of tape is attached to the left riser, passes under the reserve ripcord, then attaches to the right riser. After you release the main canopy, the RSL pulls directly on the reserve ripcord. In my opinion, too many students have had Racer-style RSLs hang up on the back of their helmets.
I prefer the - Parachutes de France - ATOM's RSL (brand name LOR) which is two separate pieces. Each ATOM RSL is attached to one riser and one pin, so both risers - and both pins - have to clear before the reserve will open.



GeekStreak  (Student)

Jun 12, 2001, 8:58 AM
Post #14 of 61 (3280 views)
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I'm doing my SL progression at Skydive Orange. No, I won't be jumping this weekend Frown and <whimper>it's starting to look like I'll be grounded until mid July.</whimper> I've been looking for jumpers in my area to share beer money, I mean hook-up with on jump weekends. Until I get my "A" (looking very distant right now) I'm tied to my DZ though.

If ya ever get the urge to jump at Skydive Orange gimme a holler. I check my dz.com email pretty regularly.

1111,
GeekStreak


Aviatrr  (D 27349)

Jun 12, 2001, 7:53 PM
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In reply to:
If you have a cypress. You may not want an RSL. I would never completely trust the cypress, but on the other hand, it will probably work. If I have time to cutaway, I will likely have time to stabalize and deploy the reserve. I would like to wait a bit before I did so. If I don't deploy, the cypress will.
What does a Cypres have to do with RSL's? Nothing. They are two totally separate pieces of equipment made to do vastly different things. Yes, they both deploy the reserve - but that's where the similarities end.

An RSL will deploy your reserve as soon as your riser(s) separate from the 3 ring - whether you like it or not. If you're at 6,000ft and cutaway, do you want the RSL to deploy your reserve IMMEDIATELY even though you may be spinning wildly, increasing the chance of a reserve mal? Too bad - you don't have a choice. If the RSL is connected, it WILL deploy your reserve. Period. Don't try to tell me that you will disconnect your RSL if you are in such a situation - you will probably not even think about it. What if you have a canopy collision/wrap at 1500ft? If you cutaway with an RSL, you greatly increase the chance of a reserve entanglement. Do you think you are going to think about releasing the RSL while you are accelerating toward the ground from 1500ft with two entangled jumpers under deflated, streaming canopies?

The Cypres will deploy your reserve if certain parameters are met. For the Expert Cypres, it will deploy your reserve if you are traveling down in excess of 78mph between 130'AGL and 750'AGL. Actually, the manual states it may deploy your reserve as high as 1050'AGL in certain unusual circumstances that may trick the Cypres pressure sensor. If you are in freefall at 750'AGL, and the Cypres is working correctly, it will sever the closing loop on your reserve. If you are between 130'AGL and 750'AGL and accelerate through 78mph, it will sever the closing loop. Does it care WHY you are going that fast? Nope. Does it care if there is already a main out and currently inflating? Nope. Does it care if you just cutaway, or if you have a bag locked main and have not cut it away yet? Nope.

In reply to:
However, if I make a bonehead move, without a cypress, and cutaway too low, I would rather have the RSL to deploy as soon as possible.
If you cutaway too low WITH a Cypres, but no RSL, the Cypres WILL NOT save your butt. If you cutaway at 500', and don't pull your reserve, but only have accelerated to 75mph by the time you get to 130'.....too bad. Cypres will disarm. What good would it do you then?

Please, don't bring AAD's into the RSL equation. They are two COMPLETELY different items. If you have one, it should not affect your decision for the other.

Here's my opinion on RSL's. I know it differs from others, but that's why it's an opinion, and not a fact. If you are confident that you can pull your reserve handle in a timely manner after a cutaway, you don't need an RSL. If you are unsure of your ability to pull the reserve handle after a cutaway - get out of skydiving. It may seem like a cruel thing to say, but this is a very unforgiving sport.

Mike



Aviatrr  (D 27349)

Jun 12, 2001, 7:56 PM
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In reply to:
As an SL student jumping from 3,500' there is not a lot of time to think about what to do with an RSL in a mal. The student rigs where I jump are not equipped with them, and I have mentally and physically rehearsed what to do for different types of mals over and over.
If you jump in the U.S., you should probably verify that with your instructors. If I remember correctly, one of the USPA BSR's states that all student jumps must be on rigs with an AAD and an RSL.

Mike



freeflyguy  (D 24207)

Jun 13, 2001, 6:58 AM
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Just to clarify.

I probably shouldn't have even mentioned a cypres in this discussion. I agree, it has nothing to do with an rsl. Totally a different deal, and last chance back up at that.

What I mean on a RSL is this. 99 times out of 100, an rsl is a good thing. it will open your reserve immediately, and you will be fine. But personally, I would prefer to wait that extra second or two before I pulled my second handle. There is a slight chance that it would cause a problem with your main. Very slight. But like I said, if I have time to cutaway, I will have time deploy the reserve.

It seems that I have read that the incidence of a RSL causing a main/reserve entanglement is almost never or not at all. So in all, it is a good thing. There is many an incident of someone cutting away, and not deploying a reserve.



Grogs  (D 24265)

Jun 13, 2001, 7:44 AM
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Personally, I don't jump with one anymore. I had my first cutaway while I was demoing a canopy I was looking to buy. Since the RSL ring on the risers was on the opposite side as my RSL, it wasn't hooked up. After I did my emergency procedures correctly without one, I felt much more confident in my ability to perform emergency procedures without relying on the RSL and had it removed at my next reserve repack. I also like jumping without an RSL because I feel it simplifies the malfunction tree a bit since it takes out the question of whether or not to disconnect the RSL in certain malfunctions, which I can't gurantee I'd be thinking clearly enough to ever do since the old 'pull red, pull silver' is so deeply ingrained in my muscle memory.

Still, having said that it's a personal choice. There are a lot of incident reports that might not have happened with an RSL equipped, so if you choose to jump with one more power to you.



des  (F 372)

Jun 14, 2001, 3:21 AM
Post #19 of 61 (3165 views)
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i can name 3 fatalities directly related to rsl's.
wouldn't use one myself,but for personal gear,it's a reasonable option.tandems-- no way, they're killers.i do not personally know one experienced tm that uses an rsl.
replying to post here,that has heard of no main reserve entanglements.(haven't figured out yet ,how to post the quote i'm replying to ). sorry folks.
(all the tm's i'm thinking of, have over 2000 tandems)
would be interested to hear from an experienced tm ,that uses an rsl, and why.
regards
des



GeekStreak  (Student)

Jun 14, 2001, 5:23 AM
Post #20 of 61 (3159 views)
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In reply to:
If you jump in the U.S., you should probably verify that with your instructors.
There was definately NOT an RSL on the gear I jump as a student. AAD, YES!

1111,
GeekStreak


riggerrob  (D 14840)

Jun 14, 2001, 9:10 AM
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I can name dozens or experienced Tandem Instructors have wear RSLs and leaved them connected.
But what do I know?
I only have 1996 tandem jumps.



Aviatrr  (D 27349)

Jun 14, 2001, 7:26 PM
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In reply to:
There was definately NOT an RSL on the gear I jump as a student. AAD, YES!
Just out of curiosity, where did you learn? How long ago? It's pretty rare to find DZ's that don't use RSL's on student rigs. USPA BSR's require it for Group Member DZ's. Not that I agree with that requirement, but it's there.

Mike



des  (F 372)

Jun 15, 2001, 2:26 AM
Post #23 of 61 (3108 views)
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Re: RSLs [In reply to] Can't Post

riggerrob,
i knew there were experienced tm,s who use a rsl.what i was asking is "why". can you give me a scenario,where a rsl is useful on a tandem.
des



what42  (Student)

Jun 15, 2001, 7:31 AM
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In reply to:
There was definately NOT an RSL on the gear I jump as a student. AAD, YES!
The student gear my my dz has both on their rigs. I don't think I'll get an RSL whenever I buy my own rig. The best me and my DZO could it was the RSL snagging on something that caused my 2 canopies out situation. That situation kind of turned me off on RSL's. I can see how they're useful but I don't think I want one.

Wesley
--
I want to fly!


Aviatrr  (D 27349)

Jun 15, 2001, 4:03 PM
Post #25 of 61 (3075 views)
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In reply to:
I can name dozens or experienced Tandem Instructors have wear RSLs and leaved them connected.
But what do I know?
I only have 1996 tandem jumps.
I admit, I didn't go through a Tandem progression when I started jumping....but isn't that a bit excessive? Wink

Mike



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