Forums: Skydiving Disciplines: Swooping and Canopy Control:
Do the more experienced hold the lesser experienced back

 

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Poll: Do the more experienced hold the lesser experienced back
More than 1000 jumps: Yes 12 / 19%
More than 1000 jumps: No 19 / 30%
Less than 1000 jumps: Yes 12 / 19%
Less than 1000 jumps: No 21 / 33%
64 total votes
 
johnny1488  (D 25453)

Feb 27, 2006, 2:15 PM
Post #26 of 49 (1043 views)
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Re: [chachi] Do the more experienced hold the lesser experienced back [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Who here thinks that rear riser flight is a waste of time unless you are trying to extend your swoop distance.

How about increasing glide?


davelepka  (D 21448)

Feb 27, 2006, 2:17 PM
Post #27 of 49 (1042 views)
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Re: [frost] Do the more experienced hold the lesser experienced back [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
The answer to your question is quite simple really: To feel better about themselves.

I have seen it myself - those who have been doing it ("it" can be anything) for a while seem to take it hard that someone with 2-3 years of experience can just come in and beat them at their own game, at something they have been doing for 10-12 years or more.

I could see that if a more experinced jumper was talking smack about an 300 jump wonder who could out-fly him.

Once the 300 jump wonder walks up asks for help, he ceases being a 'punk kid', and turns into a guy who has real talent, but still respect for the more experinced guys, and their opinions.

Of course, ten seconds later, he's back to being a punk kid, as he accuses 'the man' of trying to hold him back, and being jealous of his skills.

But I do think that if you man up, and ask an experienced jumper his opinion about skydiving, that he'll give an honest, straight-up answer.


frost  (D 25011)

Feb 27, 2006, 2:29 PM
Post #28 of 49 (1032 views)
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Re: [davelepka] Do the more experienced hold the lesser experienced back [In reply to] Can't Post

I am not sure who's side you're on - the "punk kid" or the "more experinced jumper"?


CanuckInUSA  (D 26396)

Feb 27, 2006, 2:38 PM
Post #29 of 49 (1023 views)
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Re: [frost] Do the more experienced hold the lesser experienced back [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
I am not sure who's side you're on - the "punk kid" or the "more experinced jumper"?

From every post I've ever seen Dave make, it's the experienced jumper. But who knows if he's trying to mess with us here. Sly


chachi  (B 3406)

Feb 27, 2006, 2:40 PM
Post #30 of 49 (1018 views)
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Re: [CanuckInUSA] Do the more experienced hold the lesser experienced back [In reply to] Can't Post

seems to me he is on the side of the guy who is not being an idiot.


Kimblair13  (D 28140)

Feb 27, 2006, 3:15 PM
Post #31 of 49 (1004 views)
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Re: [superstu] Do the more experienced hold the lesser experienced back [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
for example if someone asks how to set up a 270 even though they've only done 90's, would you tell them?

Fine! I don't need your help, I'll figure it out on my own!Tongue


piisfish

Feb 27, 2006, 3:20 PM
Post #32 of 49 (1001 views)
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Re: [CanuckInUSA] Do the more experienced hold the lesser experienced back [In reply to] Can't Post

I voted NO. In my short experience, they hold us back, they try to have us unleash the power progressively, and this in all domains.


superstu  (D License)

Feb 27, 2006, 3:34 PM
Post #33 of 49 (990 views)
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Re: [Kimblair13] Do the more experienced hold the lesser experienced back [In reply to] Can't Post

kimmie you're helpless anyway so why do i tryTongue j/k


Premier BenHall  (B 28306)

Feb 27, 2006, 3:35 PM
Post #34 of 49 (989 views)
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Re: [CanuckInUSA] Do the more experienced hold the lesser experienced back [In reply to] Can't Post

Well I hope you guys don't mind if I chime in from the other side of canopy piloting (the slow one w/ big canopies : ) ). I'm still loaded fairly light on a spectre and just started swooping (if you can call it that). I began slow w/ double fronts--90's and some 180's up high, then downsized to 1.15 WL and started all over again. Even this WL is fast at this altitude. Concerning Steve's question (hey steve!):
I think experienced guys do in many cases hold younger guys back, and it's a good thing!! It keeps femurs intact and backs in one piece! What's the worse that could happen--jumper x gets better at flying his canopy before starting to swoop? I really don't see this as a problem at all, in fact Grant warned me yesterday about hook turns--and in a respectful way. Whenever I ask the swoopers at the dz about canopy flight, they are happy to give good advice aimed to keep me flying safe. So yes, while experienced guys may technically be "holding back" some younger guys, it is a good safe practice. Whoever gets upset that a better pilot might be holding them back is not very bright and will most likely end up learning the hard way.


freakydiver  (D 26421)

Feb 27, 2006, 3:35 PM
Post #35 of 49 (988 views)
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Re: [CanuckInUSA] Do the more experienced hold the lesser experienced back [In reply to] Can't Post

More experienced jumpers I know are MORE than willing to talk with and work with less experienced jumpers as long as the less experienced jumpers come into the situation with no attitude and expectations of how they want to progress...


marks  (D 22296)

Feb 27, 2006, 5:44 PM
Post #36 of 49 (956 views)
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Re: [Kimblair13] Do the more experienced hold the lesser experienced back [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Quote:
for example if someone asks how to set up a 270 even though they've only done 90's, would you tell them?

Fine! I don't need your help, I'll figure it out on my own!Tongue

LaughLaugh


marks  (D 22296)

Feb 27, 2006, 5:47 PM
Post #37 of 49 (954 views)
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Re: [freakydiver] Do the more experienced hold the lesser experienced back [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
More experienced jumpers I know are MORE than willing to talk with and work with less experienced jumpers as long as the less experienced jumpers come into the situation with no attitude and expectations of how they want to progress...

I have had a few come to me and say " I want to be able to do ----- by the end of this class."

Im sitting there thinking, "you got 30 jumps and you want me to teach you -------?"

then you just say, "well, we need to work on these other things before we get to that, here are the reasons why" and sometime they are open to that, and sometimes you loose them right there.


CanuckInUSA  (D 26396)

Feb 27, 2006, 6:25 PM
Post #38 of 49 (940 views)
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Re: [BenHall] Do the more experienced hold the lesser experienced back [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Even this WL is fast at this altitude. Concerning Steve's question (hey steve!)

Hey Ben I'd be happy to talk about swooping to guys like you any day. I've actually been rather impressed with the junior jumpers at Mile-Hi. Very few egos and lot's of people not doing any dumb shit (except when they rear riser stall their canopies during CPC meets). I think some of this has to do with the altitude you're at. Things just happen so much faster up there and for some (good) reason the junior jumpers rarely if ever get in over their heads as they know the margin for error is slim (I hope I didn't just jinx the joint). So with the exception of that Spizzarko dude Wink ... there are no punks at Mile-Hi.

You know I'm just shitting with you ... right Grant. Smile


(This post was edited by CanuckInUSA on Feb 27, 2006, 6:57 PM)


robap26  (D 24848)

Feb 27, 2006, 10:06 PM
Post #39 of 49 (911 views)
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Re: [CanuckInUSA] Do the more experienced hold the lesser experienced back [In reply to] Can't Post

What I have noticed over the years is that they are going to do it anyway. If I refuse to give them advise that is just going to make them go out and do it sooner and without knowledge. It's hard to say " swoopin's bad M'kay" when my conservative approach is a 180 and that's all they see.
The last few years I have been talking to younger jumpers about swooping, not encouraging them but answer their questions honestly. The old timers and DZO/DZM think this is terrible but I disagree. I would rather give them knowledge and guidance and help them learn safely then watch them learn the hard way. The WILL do it anyway, I may as well try and help them stay safe.

I do think some people try to hold back the young up and comers for the wrong reasons, and jealousy is part of it. You can see it in their attitude; "You don't deserve to be in our club". It can be hard to see a low timer achieve in 200 jumps what took you 500. It stings a little when I jump with one of my former AFF students and they are better on their head then I am. But the proud feeling is a lot stronger then the small sting. I have sort of a protege that has about 700 jumps now. I have worked with him on his coach rating and taught him how to shoot video and of course swooping. By next season he will be my equal in filming, and by the season after that he will be my equal in swooping. This is a little hard on the ego but I'm not going to let that get in the way of being happy for him. And Hey, when he beats me to the PST he can teach me.
I am always going to have to deal with this sort of stuff. I am not a risk taker or a natural athlete or a hot-shot. I do things slow and careful. The hot-shots and the naturals take bigger risk and learn faster and generally achieve more in less time. There are a lot of guys who are not as "OK" with being beat as I am and they tend to discourage the youngins.
To you youngins... If you get that bad vibe from someone just go somewhere else for your advice, please don't do it on your own.
A jack-ass will say "you shouldn't do that...PERIOD"
The correct answer is " this is how that works and these are the steps to get you to that point".


frost  (D 25011)

Feb 28, 2006, 6:38 AM
Post #40 of 49 (870 views)
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Re: [robap26] Do the more experienced hold the lesser experienced back [In reply to] Can't Post

Great honest answer, man.


chachi  (B 3406)

Feb 28, 2006, 8:37 AM
Post #41 of 49 (846 views)
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Re: [frost] Do the more experienced hold the lesser experienced back [In reply to] Can't Post

robap26 is quite a guy from that short paragraph. maybe anyone thinking themselves as a coach should take some things out of that.


rhys  (D 95)

Feb 28, 2006, 11:21 AM
Post #42 of 49 (807 views)
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Re: [robap26] Do the more experienced hold the lesser experienced back [In reply to] Can't Post

good words,
It is funny how groms learn much faster. I have noticed that in skateboarding too. when i started there was no such thing as a 360flip, when it was invented it was only for the elite. now every 11 year old kid can do them and i still cant get my head/gonads around them. i'm new to skydiving but that same sort of thing is happening here.

I have noticed old school saussie suit,moustash and fraphatters mock freeflying because they cannot do it. they say its all about turning points, now cats are turning points on their heads and the old schoolers are left behind.

I see many people downsizing IMO too early, is that just too early beacause i didn't do it then?

in some countries you cannot jump elliptical untill 500 jumps! is that safety or is that holding back?

it is a hard thing to regulate.

bwwwaaah, i'm confused now


CrazyL  (D 17699)

Feb 28, 2006, 10:41 PM
Post #43 of 49 (755 views)
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Re: [CanuckInUSA] Do the more experienced hold the lesser experienced back [In reply to] Can't Post

Getting into swooping. When a young jumper approaches me with questions on high performance landings aka hookturns, my usual reply is 'hookturns are the highest cause of death among skydivers, why do you want to do that?'. I myself am a hookturn whore. I like to top off a bitch'n skydive with a big fat hookturn too. Does'nt mean I like to tell others the how to's. I will coach many parts of skydiving, am very reluctant to teach the most deadly part of this sport to anyone. So yes, I do hold jumpers back from 'the most deadly part of the sport'. Have been told at several dz's 'you are the example for the young jumpers'(not in a good way). By doing hookturns i'm not a good example to the young ones, I also have no instructional ratings, which makes me a fun jumper. Have done many coach jumps as the coach. On coach jumps I tend to fly my canopy approach similar to what i'd like the coachee to fly. A portion of a coach jump includes canopy control each jump. Skydiving is still my hobby, even though i work in it daily. I will do hookturns only to entertain myself, to entertain others is a side effect. Have competed in swoop events in the past. Competitions became more hazardous for me. Partly due to swooping to impress others. I could care less if anyone sees or is entertained by one of my crazy aerial stunts. Part of the reason why i land the way I do is for those few fleeting moments of bliss that i feel from performing such acts. Don't do as I do. You could be killed!


LearningTOfly

Mar 1, 2006, 8:50 AM
Post #44 of 49 (722 views)
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Re: Do the more experienced hold the lesser experienced back [In reply to] Can't Post

I have this funny feeling that I might somehow be linked to this thread, so if I may give a 'low timer' point of view on it.

To address the original question of this thread: In my experience, this varies with the individual- but generally speaking, most experienced jumpers seem willing to dispense information to the inexperienced, especially when asked specifically. This information, though, is usually accompanied with a word of caution if the mentor feels it necessary. I think that the concept of 'holding someone back' is in the minds of a few- an individual, if motivated enough, will not be held back by one or even a group, as there is always the other half who are willing to help/ give advice or information. As a note, this is not 'swooping specific', but rather can be applied to most aspects of jumping. Just because someone asks a canopy control question, dosen't mean they're so gung ho on swooping in reality...

The discussion here has seen some very insightful posts on 'advice'... I'll add my view for what it's worth, please take it as a continuation of the above paragraph:
In my opinion, the whole truth on a matter has less potential to introduce a hazardous situation down the road than limited, or worse yet, denial of information does. But, a healthy warning accompanying that information is a very good idea. After that, it's the recipient's responsibility of what to do with what he has learned (which if I might add, is hard to monitor over an internent forum); and I agree with the idea that if the 'student' makes a bad, or dangerous decision based on this advice or information, then witholding advice next time would be a reasonable thing to do.

My view that complete information is better that part or nothing comes from my own experience being asked for advice on things such as flying aerobatics- if somebody (most times a student fresh of a license) asks 'how?'- I tell them, in detail, how a maneuver is performed. Like was said by robap, the description is not encouragement, rather an honest (objective) response to the question. Knowing that they are flying an (insert training aircraft here), I follow up right away with what stresses occur on the airframe, dangers involved, and how it could potentially be the start, and shortly thereafter- end, of a really bad day if things go wrong. Every time I have made an explination in this manner, the vibe I get is 'thanks, that's just what I needed to hear, and now I know and understand' (...why I should wait for the proper aircraft/ instruction etc). I feel this explination method is better than leaving it at "get flight instruction (coaching)..." etc, because (a)if they cannot find an instructor (and they are rare for acro), then they may reason for a while and come to a conclusion of 'how hard can it be', try something naive, and the next thing you know I'm reading an accident report; and (b)because half the time it appears that the interest is of the 'pick your brain' variety.

On a personal level... I'm the sort that like to learn every aspect of an activity I'm interested in- if I overhear a 'pick his or hers brain' conversation, I'm usually there in a heartbeat just to soak up what might be said. To tie that back to the post I made the other day... I have hard links on my risers anyway, so I'm thouroughly euchered when it comes to extending a 'swoop' via use of rears (thereafter, I have little 'swoop' to extend).

In the end, this is an internet forum... little about a person can be understood about a person via a number in the corner, although very much is usually assumed.

edit:speling


(This post was edited by LearningTOfly on Mar 1, 2006, 8:52 AM)


bluewaterstream  (A License)

Mar 1, 2006, 11:47 AM
Post #45 of 49 (688 views)
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Re: [CanuckInUSA] Do the more experienced hold the lesser experienced back [In reply to] Can't Post

Some people are worthy of help from the more experienced and others are not. It's up to the experienced dudes to decide this. If you think a newbie is safe and ready for new info, share your knowledge if you want to. If you think a newbie is jackass and is just going to hurt themselves, ignore the fool. You can't save idiots that have no respect for advanced canopy piloting.

I'm in no position to give any canopy flight advise to anyone, but if I was I would be very selective about who I shared that type of information with. Would it be ethical to teach a violent out of control nut-case advanced martial art moves that could be used to kill and/or serious injure someone? Hell no. Just like it wouldn't be ethical to give advanced piloting skills to someone that isn't ready for swooping. It's all about perspective, it's the teacher that decides who's ready and who's not. Some people should never be taught certain skills and it's up to the teachers/experienced to use their best judgment to decide who can handle that type of information.

I once had a student that wanted to be a competitive fighter. This guy was a not very athletic and definitely not a fighter. Me and several other trainers were working with him and time and time again he would get his ass beat in competitions. He got injured often and it became obvious that fighting just wasn't his thing. We were concerned with his safety and encouraged him to get involved in different areas of competition (i.e. Forms/Katas). This wasn't about holding him back, this was about looking out for a brothers best interest. The same should apply to swooping. Just like some skydivers get the "bowling talk" to prevent them from killing themselves, some wanna be swoopers should be deterred from swooping. Who decides - you experienced swoopers do.

When and if I decide to get into swooping, if a bunch of experienced cats from my dz tell me I suck and that I'm gonna end up killing myself if I keep trying to swoop - I'm gonna listen. However, if they decide to share their knowledge with me and think that I have what it takes to become a safe swooper - I'll consider that a privilege and seek as much formal training as possible.

So basically, I think you guys should try to hold certain people back.


ntacfreefly

Mar 1, 2006, 12:07 PM
Post #46 of 49 (674 views)
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Re: [bluewaterstream] Do the more experienced hold the lesser experienced back [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
Would it be ethical to teach a violent out of control nut-case advanced martial art moves that could be used to kill and/or serious injure someone? Hell no.

Agreed. It's not about 'hiding' anything. It's about having a structured path, tailored for the student to follow for the greatest chance of success.

Blues,
Ian


bob.dino  (E 2185)

Mar 1, 2006, 2:39 PM
Post #47 of 49 (639 views)
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Re: [ntacfreefly] Do the more experienced hold the lesser experienced back [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
It's about having a structured path, tailored for the student to follow for the greatest chance of success.

Preferably a structured path containing plenty of objective feedback. A great example of this is Bill von Novak's Downsizing Checklist. "You want to downsize? Come back when you can do all these."

Would it be worth trying to put together a similar checklist for aspiring swoopers?


marks  (D 22296)

Mar 1, 2006, 2:42 PM
Post #48 of 49 (634 views)
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Re: [bob.dino] Do the more experienced hold the lesser experienced back [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
Would it be worth trying to put together a similar checklist for aspiring swoopers?

YES!


robap26  (D 24848)

Mar 1, 2006, 4:55 PM
Post #49 of 49 (612 views)
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Re: [marks] Do the more experienced hold the lesser experienced back [In reply to] Can't Post

YES, agreed.


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