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Racer speedbag

 

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ernokaikkonen  (D 12)

Feb 24, 2006, 7:34 AM
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Racer speedbag Can't Post

I don't get it.

I think it's trying to fix something that isn't broken. Regardless of the amount of test jumps done on it, the regular freebag design has been field tested much more. People aren't regularly getting hurt because of reserve line dumps, and if they are it's most likely because the safety stow was too loose or too worn out.

The main thing is the rubber bands. They perish. No matter how much people try to convince me that Mil-spec rubber bands will be just fine for 6 months in any conditions, I'm not buying it. And sooner or later someone will pack a Speed Bag with non Mil-spec bands. And pencil pack it a few times. Both real world situations, no matter how un-acceptable, would be non-issues with a regular safety stow.

The first thing I thought when I saw a Speed Bag for the first time was "Why would you want all those possibilities for a bag lock in a reserve?". I couldn't even pack it. It was a tandem rig, and the Racer manual didn't even mention the speedbag. No-one around knew how to pack it. Luckily I had a regular tandem freebag handy, so I just swapped the bags.

I find it interesting that while some people are working hard to get rid of all rubber bands(the stowless bag designs), there are others trying to introduce rubber bands in places where they aren't used at the moment.

Regardless of either of them, I'm willing to bet that in 10-15 years most new rigs will still have a safety stow on the reserve and 4 grommets and some bungees on the main...


brits17  (D 24752)

Feb 24, 2006, 8:06 AM
Post #2 of 168 (30516 views)
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Re: [ernokaikkonen] Racer speedbag [In reply to] Can't Post

I agree. After all, the standard tailpocket designed for stowing lines in a BASE rig has only a single locking stow. We don't hear of a bunch of BASE jumpers whining about "line dump" and how they're getting whacked all the time. Its basically non-existant if properly stowed.
The freebag is the same concept. Jump Shack should leave well enough alone. The rubber bands are much more hassle than help.

Quote:
Regardless of either of them, I'm willing to bet that in 10-15 years most new rigs will still have a safety stow on the reserve and 4 grommets and some bungees on the main...
May I request a more elaborate explanation? CrazyWink


(This post was edited by brits17 on Feb 24, 2006, 8:10 AM)


leapdog  (D 28504)

Feb 24, 2006, 8:27 AM
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Re: [brits17] Racer speedbag [In reply to] Can't Post

I agree also and going the other way. I'm impressed with the design for the Icon free bag going a different route. No rubber bands but yet, IMO, more neatly stowed lines in the pouch and still a safety stow. It is an old design used in military surplus mains years back I believe. I had always known of this design and had always wondered why it wasn't used in a free bag. I like it, it makes it just a bit easier to pack and I like how with no effort the line stows are neater.


brits17  (D 24752)

Feb 24, 2006, 8:33 AM
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Re: [leapdog] Racer speedbag [In reply to] Can't Post

Sounds cool, I have yet to pack an Icon. I'm wondering how it's 'neater.' Does it have stow separator tabs or something? Pics anyone?


riggerrob  (D 14840)

Feb 24, 2006, 8:35 AM
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Re: [ernokaikkonen] Racer speedbag [In reply to] Can't Post

Hee!
Hee!
Don't be shy Erno.
Tell us how you relay feel.

The main reason Jump Shack designed the Speed Bag was John Sherman's personality.
Hee!
Hee!
Scary, but now I have to put on my "defend John Sherman hat."
"More rude laughter!"

Basically, John didn't design the safety stow, so he does not like it.
I have at least three different generations of Racer freebags on my DZ. The first one is closed with four rubber bands, the second one has a safety stow and the third one is a Speed Bag.
On the life of rubber bands, ... I found that Mil-Spec rubber bands last a minimum of two years in the harsh Southern California desert (hot, dry, dusty). If anyone wants to let their reserve pack job go beyond two years, they are on their own ...

I will admit that Speed Bags are over-kill on tiny Power Racers, but they make the most sense on tandem main deployment bags. Since locking stows are the highest wear item and they are replaced by the least qualified staff members, it makes sense to replace them with the most popular size of rubber band.
Yes, I know that Vector/Sigma use double-width rubber bands on their tandem d-bags and Strong uses a mixture of standard rubber bands and those accursed bungees, but none of the other tandem manufacturers have invented a main d-bag that is as simple to use as a Speed Bag.


justinb138  (B 28762)

Feb 24, 2006, 9:01 AM
Post #6 of 168 (30465 views)
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Re: [brits17] Racer speedbag [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Sounds cool, I have yet to pack an Icon. I'm wondering how it's 'neater.' Does it have stow separator tabs or something? Pics anyone?

I'd tell you to look at the Icon manual online, but if I remember correctly, there is no mention of the line stows on the bag in the manual at all. CrazyWink


RMURRAY

Feb 24, 2006, 9:12 AM
Post #7 of 168 (30457 views)
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Re: [ernokaikkonen] Racer speedbag [In reply to] Can't Post

skydiving has changed over the years. as the name suggests, it is designed to protect against bagstrip when the reserve is dumped at HIGH speed. it will work fine at low speed - just like millions of main deployments per year. I have replaced the bungee on my freebag with (MIL spec) rubber bands but have not ordered a speedbag because I don't do headdown stuff. I repack once a year - all is fine.

rm


teason  (D 18902)

Feb 24, 2006, 10:18 AM
Post #8 of 168 (30416 views)
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Re: [ernokaikkonen] Racer speedbag [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
The main thing is the rubber bands. They perish. No matter how much people try to convince me that Mil-spec rubber bands will be just fine for 6 months in any conditions, I'm not buying it. And sooner or later someone will pack a Speed Bag with non Mil-spec bands. And pencil pack it a few times. Both real world situations, no matter how un-acceptable, would be non-issues with a regular safety stow.......I find it interesting that while some people are working hard to get rid of all rubber bands(the stowless bag designs), there are others trying to introduce rubber bands in places where they aren't used at the moment.

What the heck do you think is inside a bungee to make it stretchy? elf snot?

Q:How long does a bungee stay with a freebag?
A: long after the elastic inside has broken.

I've never known a rigger to replace a bungee before it breaks. Elastics, however, are.

Sorry, but your "Elastics are bad" argument is weak at best.

There is a feeling that bungees aren't as safe as elastics because elastics break and bungees (because of the sheathing) don't break, they fail. The feeling is you are more likely to get a bag lock from a loop that fails than a loop that snaps. That feeling is one of the thing that led to the speedbag.

I'm really sorry you have problems packing it but maybe you should take the time to get educated instead of throwing up your hands and crying "Racers suck".
That happens far too often in the skydiving community.


ChrisClark  (D 8433)

Feb 24, 2006, 10:34 AM
Post #9 of 168 (30411 views)
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Re: [brits17] Racer speedbag [In reply to] Can't Post

Icon free bag stows picture, taken as there was no mention of how stows were done in manual about year and a half ago. The design is unusually similar to the PDF AtomWink which has been around a while.
It was mentioned to me by another very experienced rigger that the Racer was changed due to the greater distance between mouthlock stows, greater mass of line would mean more chance of line dump. More of a problem on a free bag as this could involve bag strip ie leaving canopy in the container!
Don't know if that is the case, not many Racers around here, poptops are mainly the TearDrop.
Attachments: iconstow.jpg (42.2 KB)


darnknit  (D 12852)

Feb 24, 2006, 10:46 AM
Post #10 of 168 (30401 views)
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Re: [teason] Racer speedbag [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
What the heck do you think is inside a bungee to make it stretchy? elf snot?

Mil Spec elf snot actually.Wink

Quote:
I've never known a rigger to replace a bungee before it breaks. Elastics, however, are.

i've never known a rigger who didn't inspect a safety stow, and replace it when needed.

Quote:
Sorry, but your "Elastics are bad" argument is weak at best.

rubber bands that are not Mil Spec chemically react with brass, causing them to break down. how is any given rigger to be sure that the rubber bands are Mil Spec on any given rig?

Quote:
maybe you should take the time to get educated instead of throwing up your hands and crying "Racers suck".


i will not say racers suck, but i will say the speedbag does not have a design advantage. it does however, have a maintenance disadvantage.

blue stuff,
p.j.


(This post was edited by darnknit on Feb 24, 2006, 10:55 AM)


sid  (D 20135)

Feb 24, 2006, 10:57 AM
Post #11 of 168 (30391 views)
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Re: [darnknit] Racer speedbag [In reply to] Can't Post

  

Quote:
Sorry, but your "Elastics are bad" argument is weak at best.

rubber bands(even Mil Spec) chemically react with brass, causing them to break down.


Damn you Eason, I wasn't going to get into this 'cause Erno and I have already had our discussion and resolved it like the gentlemen we ain't - BUT the Speedbag has soft grommets and the ONLY Brass is on the grommets that the closing loops pass through and the rubber bands never touch them. I have a speedbag main and reserve bag on my personal rig by choice and I believe if the speedbag reduces the risk of linedump on a reserve system by any percentage, it's worth having. I respect any rigger's right to dislike the speedbag, it's being different that makes life interesting..........

hey - me being reasonable Shocked


sid  (D 20135)

Feb 24, 2006, 11:00 AM
Post #12 of 168 (30386 views)
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Re: [sid] Racer speedbag [In reply to] Can't Post

and for those that may not know what the speedbag is, here is an article on it http://www.jumpshack.com/...nt.asp?ContentId=746


teason  (D 18902)

Feb 24, 2006, 11:03 AM
Post #13 of 168 (30384 views)
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Re: [darnknit] Racer speedbag [In reply to] Can't Post

It's the oxidation of the metal that reacts with the rubber. The elastic in the bungee is no different. Elastics have been used on diapers for years. With our repack cycle being the same length as our season, many rounds are packed once a year. the elastic on reserve diapers show no noticeable degredation at that time.

With a bungee, it isn't possible to see the condition of the rubber. That's why they are only replaced when they are broken. That means the freebag was in use with a broken bungee. (They don't break in our hands during inspection.)

I don't see a maintenance disadvantage over the conventional freebag. If anything, it should be easier to ensure the integrety on the locking stoe.

Also for those who don't already know, there are no grommets on the Speedbag, brass or otherwise for the rubber bands to come in contact with. The elastics pass through material not metal grommets.


RMURRAY

Feb 24, 2006, 1:56 PM
Post #14 of 168 (30334 views)
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Re: [teason] Racer speedbag [In reply to] Can't Post

"elastics" = rubber bands. Easy to spot a fellow Canadian.

rm


darnknit  (D 12852)

Feb 24, 2006, 3:29 PM
Post #15 of 168 (30297 views)
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Re: [teason] Racer speedbag [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
It's the oxidation of the metal that reacts with the rubber. The elastic in the bungee is no different.

the elastic in the bungee is coated with a different textile so that the rubber does not come in contact with the oxydizing metal.

Quote:
That means the freebag was in use with a broken bungee. (They don't break in our hands during inspection.)

i am not sure if you are saying that rubber bands(even Mil Spec) will break upon inspection instead of use, whereas a safety stow will pass inspection, yet still break during use, but if that is your opinion i would have to disagree.

Quote:
Also for those who don't already know, there are no grommets on the Speedbag,

even if you remove the brass grommets, i see no design advantages and only maintenance disadvantages when it comes to the speedbag.

blue stuff,
p.j.


(This post was edited by darnknit on Feb 24, 2006, 5:28 PM)


RMURRAY

Feb 24, 2006, 5:41 PM
Post #16 of 168 (30250 views)
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Re: [ernokaikkonen] Racer speedbag [In reply to] Can't Post

this from the Jump Shack website. They got the website right the first time - that is why they don't need to update it. rm

Rubber Stow Bands Break For A Reason

by John Sherman

December 26, 2000



It has become apparent to me that despite the problems in the past with out-of-sequence openings among other things, that people haven't learned that rubber bands break for a reason. The U.S. Government spent a lot of money developing a specification for parachute stow bands. In my 35 years in the sport I have never found an acceptable substitute.

You might find a product which will work most of the time and which might seem to solve your breakage problem. But don't count on it working every time in every situation. If you think about it, you might ask why someone hasn't previously come up with a more durable product. It's such a simple matter, a stronger rubber band, and there are a lot of smart people who have come before us….

I remember the “Red” rubber band that was popular for a while in the 70's. They ended up melting and sticking to the grommets. I remember the Buna "N" "O" rings. They “spit” lines. I remember the Type 17 riser problem that was traced to a non-Mil. Spec Stow band. If you haven’t had a bag lock due to one of these “unbreakable” stow bands – you probably will. I have witnessed three bag lock/cutaways that are directly attributable to “bands that would not break.”

Consider this; Parachute "system" designers develop components based upon the characteristics of the stow band. This is a fact. I know, as that is what I do for a living, and have been doing it for over 30 years. I strongly advise all parachutists to use only Mil Spec. Rubber Stow Bands. To use anything else can and will compromise your system.

The really good aspect of all of this is that Mil. Spec. Rubber Bands cost considerably less than all of the new-fangled substitutes.


sundevil777  (D License)

Feb 24, 2006, 5:58 PM
Post #17 of 168 (30242 views)
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Re: [RMURRAY] Racer speedbag [In reply to] Can't Post

They don't always break. Bag locks still happen with mil spec bands. But they do often break when you don't want them to.

Mr. Sherman trusts them so little for locking stows that the speedbag uses a multitude of them.

In reply to:
If you haven’t had a bag lock due to one of these “unbreakable” stow bands – you probably will.

If you haven't had bag dump of your main due to mil spec bands breaking when you didn't want them to - you probably will.

In reply to:
The really good aspect of all of this is that Mil. Spec. Rubber Bands cost considerably less than all of the new-fangled substitutes.

I make my own tube stows for my main, very cheap.


koppel  (F License)

Feb 24, 2006, 9:53 PM
Post #18 of 168 (30196 views)
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Racer speedbag BAG LOCK [In reply to] Can't Post

IMO the Speedbag has a high potential for Baglock

When the bands are pulled through the top flap if the knot comes through it has a high chance of creating a locking effect. I have repacked at least three of these where two people pulling on the rig (one on the container, one on the bridle) were not enough to release the canopy from the Speedbag!!

When I brought this to the attention of Jump Shack they just replied that they had not been able to duplicate this effect during their testing.

One speedbag that was brought to me for a repack after a cut-away from a step through had only only on one side. The other side was LOCKED shut from the bands. He was lucky that the canopy extracted itself through a bag mouth that was only half open.

previous thread here

I agree with leapdog about the Icon. I got to do one recently and think that they really do have a great solution.


BillLockwood  (D License)

Feb 24, 2006, 10:30 PM
Post #19 of 168 (30190 views)
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Re: [ernokaikkonen] Racer speedbag [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
I don't get it.
I agree, you don’t.Tongue
Quote:
I think it's trying to fix something that isn't broken.
I think that all of the people that have been hurt or killed with the present bags would disagree.
Quote:
Regardless of the amount of test jumps done on it, the regular freebag design has been field tested much more.
Based on that we should never design or test anything new because it has not been tested as much as what is already in use.
Quote:
People aren't regularly getting hurt because of reserve line dumps, and if they are it's most likely because the safety stow was too loose or too worn out.
“Regularly” I would agree with, but if it reduces the irregular times that people are getting hurt then it is a good thing.
Quote:
The main thing is the rubber bands. They perish. No matter how much people try to convince me that Mil-spec rubber bands will be just fine for 6 months in any conditions, I'm not buying it.
You don’t have to. I’m sure that you have much more wisdom than PD and all of the major manufactures out there.
Quote:
And sooner or later someone will pack a Speed Bag with non Mil-spec bands. And pencil pack it a few times. Both real world situations, no matter how un-acceptable, would be non-issues with a regular safety stow.
So then the worst case scenario that you can come up with is that the rubber bands will break on deployment and your reserve will work? And this is a bad thing?
Quote:
The first thing I thought when I saw a Speed Bag for the first time was "Why would you want all those possibilities for a bag lock in a reserve?".
It is a funny thing about prejudice, it never shows much reason. Do you say the same thing about all of the hundreds of thousands of pilot emergency rigs out there?
Quote:
I couldn't even pack it. It was a tandem rig, and the Racer manual didn't even mention the speedbag. No-one around knew how to pack it. Luckily I had a regular tandem freebag handy, so I just swapped the bags.
Just because you could not pack it does not make it a bad thing. And since you took the time to go online here to slam it did you take the same time to go online to get the packing instructions?
Quote:
I find it interesting that while some people are working hard to get rid of all rubber bands(the stowless bag designs), there are others trying to introduce rubber bands in places where they aren't used at the moment.
Now this is really confusing as virtually all pilot emergency rigs and the latest most advanced military high speed deployment system uses rubber bands instead of stow bands or flutes and for good reason.
Quote:
Regardless of either of them, I'm willing to bet that in 10-15 years most new rigs will still have a safety stow on the reserve and 4 grommets and some bungees on the main...
Well, since the latest designs that are coming out are already eliminating grommets I guess that theory is blown and it didn’t even take 10-15 years!Tongue

Now let’s take an objective look at the pros and cons of the speed bag.

Pros:

In addition to by design preventing line strip and bag dump the speed bag also has innovative balanced line stows. This has proven to provide a more consistent even deployment of the lines with less bag wobble or movement. Since the bag is made for both main and reserve there have been thousands of deployments, so to say that it is unproven is untrue. It was designed to address the high speed deployments since skydivers routinely do something other than belly to earth that the present designs were made for. Also the reason that rubber bands were chosen is specifically because they will break where shock cord won’t.

Cons:

Those damn rubber bands! Any competent rigger will and should replace the rubber bands on every repack. And with any new design there is the learning curve and the speed bag is no exception. It does take about five minutes longer to pack because of the individual line stows.

In conclusion, I have four rigs and I wish the three that are not racers had the speed bag. I did use the main speed bag for a while but stopped because of the repack time. As Rob said for tandems, it makes the most sense and is probably the safest bag out there.

I also took one of the free factory riggers classes as I have done for several different systems and learned how to pack it, so for me it is no more or less difficult to pack than any other rig.

Innovation is a good thing, maybe the speed bag will catch, maybe it won’t, but I’m glad that there are people thinking outside of the box so that I don’t have to drive a Model T Ford to work.


mjosparky  (D 5476)

Feb 25, 2006, 2:09 AM
Post #20 of 168 (30172 views)
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Re: [RMURRAY] Racer speedbag [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
I strongly advise all parachutists to use only Mil Spec. Rubber Stow Bands.

For those that are curious as to what a MIL-Spec stow band in, I scanned in 5 pages out of a total of 12 that make up MIL-R-1832D. (stow bands) There are some screw ups from the text bridge from scanner to word doc. But I think you get the idea.

Sparky


(This post was edited by mjosparky on Feb 25, 2006, 2:11 AM)
Attachments: Bands.doc (39.5 KB)


mjosparky  (D 5476)

Feb 25, 2006, 2:14 AM
Post #21 of 168 (30169 views)
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Re: [mjosparky] Racer speedbag [In reply to] Can't Post

But then again there is no such thing as a MIL-Spec. stow band. They were canceled by Natick.Crazy

Sparky
Attachments: Rubber Bands.pdf (4.12 KB)


ernokaikkonen  (D 12)

Feb 25, 2006, 3:10 AM
Post #22 of 168 (30160 views)
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Re: [brits17] Racer speedbag [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
May I request a more elaborate explanation?

Why yes, yes you may!

I believe that both the freebag with the safety stow and the main bag with grommets and rubber bands have a very impressive track record. They work quite well enough for their respective applications; there are no glaring problems with main or reserve deployments that are screaming "Fix me!". Because of this, I believe that the current most popular designs will continue to be the most popular designs well into the future.

If it's not broken, the market doesn't want it fixed, even if riggers and engineers would be delighted to be fixing it until it's broken. I should know, I'm working on the third version of my main bag. The previous two worked just fine, so some fixing seemed to be necessary.Tongue


ernokaikkonen  (D 12)

Feb 25, 2006, 3:20 AM
Post #23 of 168 (30158 views)
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Re: [teason] Racer speedbag [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
What the heck do you think is inside a bungee to make it stretchy? elf snot?

Some kind of rubbery substance, I find. It's not the same stuff than mil-spec rubber bands though.

In reply to:
Q:How long does a bungee stay with a freebag?
A: long after the elastic inside has broken.

Not when I'm packing. It is quite easy to inspect a safety stow and see if there are any broken strands inside. If there are, it's a sign that the rest are about to go, and it's time for a new safety stow. You can't pack a reserve with a broken safety stow and expect the bag to stay closed until it needs to open.

In reply to:
The feeling is you are more likely to get a bag lock from a loop that fails than a loop that snaps. That feeling is one of the thing that led to the speedbag.

I don't follow. Are you saying that a safety stow with broken inside strands could cause a bag lock? How?

In reply to:
I'm really sorry you have problems packing it but maybe you should take the time to get educated instead of throwing up your hands and crying "Racers suck".

Oh, I threw up my hands and said "Racers suck" long before I saw a Speedbag. I'll still try and pack one if I'm given enough money, but not one with a speedbag until I've received some hands-on instruction on how to pack them.


ernokaikkonen  (D 12)

Feb 25, 2006, 3:40 AM
Post #24 of 168 (30156 views)
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Re: [BillLockwood] Racer speedbag [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
I think that all of the people that have been hurt or killed with the present bags would disagree.

By the bags, or by the mis-use of the bags? We have seen that the current designs work well when properly packed, and we've also seen that they can fail spectacularly when improperly packed.

Do you think the Speedbag is more difficult to pack incorrectly?

In reply to:
Based on that we should never design or test anything new because it has not been tested as much as what is already in use.

No, based on that we should never design or test anything new to replace current designs that work well. Of course, "well enough" is rather subjective, and that's what drives the designers to design new stuff.

In reply to:
“Regularly” I would agree with, but if it reduces the irregular times that people are getting hurt then it is a good thing.

But if it introduces a whole new set of problems, is it worth it? I don't think the Speedbag has been in use for long enough for us to make that judgment yet.

In reply to:
So then the worst case scenario that you can come up with is that the rubber bands will break on deployment and your reserve will work? And this is a bad thing?

Well, if it results in the bag strip("line dump") the Speedbag was designed to avoid, it's a bit pointless, isn't it?

In reply to:
It is a funny thing about prejudice, it never shows much reason. Do you say the same thing about all of the hundreds of thousands of pilot emergency rigs out there?

I haven't packed that many pilot rigs. Are there designs that use all the rubber bands as locking stows? The ones I've seen only had one or two locking stows and the rest of the lines were stowed like on a main.

In reply to:
Just because you could not pack it does not make it a bad thing. And since you took the time to go online here to slam it did you take the same time to go online to get the packing instructions?

The packjob with the Speedbag I did months ago. I didn't have Internet access handy at the time.

In reply to:
In reply to:
I find it interesting that while some people are working hard to get rid of all rubber bands(the stowless bag designs), there are others trying to introduce rubber bands in places where they aren't used at the moment.
Now this is really confusing as virtually all pilot emergency rigs and the latest most advanced military high speed deployment system uses rubber bands instead of stow bands or flutes and for good reason.
In reply to:

When saying "in places where they aren't used at the moment" I meant sport reserves.

In reply to:
Well, since the latest designs that are coming out are already eliminating grommets I guess that theory is blown and it didn’t even take 10-15 years!

Which ones? Are there many new reserve bag designs that eliminate the grommets or the safety stow(apart from the Speedbag, of course)? Are there many new main bag designs that eliminate the grommets or the rubberbands(apart from the current "stowless bag" designs that are not available to the general public yet)? Do note that I said "most new systems".


ernokaikkonen  (D 12)

Feb 25, 2006, 3:53 AM
Post #25 of 168 (30154 views)
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Re: [riggerrob] Racer speedbag [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
On the life of rubber bands, ... I found that Mil-Spec rubber bands last a minimum of two years in the harsh Southern California desert (hot, dry, dusty).

Ok, that's reassuring. Is that 2 years shelf life or two years in a reserve packjob? I'm pretty sure no rubber band would last two years on a main...

In reply to:
Since locking stows are the highest wear item and they are replaced by the least qualified staff members, it makes sense to replace them with the most popular size of rubber band.

Because packers would use the smaller rubber bands anyway? I can't fully agree with that; While idiot-proofing systems is generally a good idea, I think a packer who can't remember to use a tandem rubber band on a tandem bag needs some additional education.


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