Forums: Skydiving: Instructors:
In Air Communication in AFF

 


Peej  (B 2456)

Feb 23, 2006, 5:22 AM
Post #1 of 25 (3674 views)
Shortcut
In Air Communication in AFF Can't Post

After reading tonto's thread about his AFF student "doing a Branson" and pulling the cutaway handle this last weekend I'm curious...

I'm a firm believer in the "in air communication systems" as a freefly coaching aid, do you think they have any applications in the AFF environment? Are any of AFFI's using them?

And do you think a system like this would have helped the same dude? Would being able to tell him that he was reaching for the wrong handle in freefall have helped or would it have confused him further?

All opinions welcome
Thanks

edited to add:
Ok, so after refining my search technique i came across this post.

http://www.dropzone.com/...20and%20AFF;#1516801

That answers a lot but i'd still like to hear more of your thoughts.


(This post was edited by Peej on Feb 23, 2006, 5:36 AM)


AggieDave  (D License)

Feb 23, 2006, 6:22 AM
Post #2 of 25 (3621 views)
Shortcut
Re: [Peej] In Air Communication in AFF [In reply to] Can't Post

I've spent a decent amount of time on a radio talking down students under canopy with an AFFI looking over my shoulder. I assume you've done the same or you've been around an AFFI doing the same before right?

How many students have you seen actually do exactly what was told over the radio? About half?

The body's response to an adreniline dump like your first few jumps includes tunnel vision, time lapse (fast or slow), hearing goes, as well as a few other things. That's why you see videos of students staring into nothing not responding to hand signals, rolling everywhere while the AFFI's fix the situation and keep them "stable" while still tossing out a hand signal like "arch." Then when the student gets down they go "man that was over too quick, it was awesome, we were stable the entire time, my body position was great..." etc. That's also why organizations like the military or similar high stress response jobs spend so much time training. When you reach a fight/flight situation, your mind can basically blank out and you revert to your training without even thinking about it.

I'm not saying that its not a good idea, just that it would be wasted on many people, so the expense and complication it adds to the situation may not be worth it.


Peej  (B 2456)

Feb 23, 2006, 6:36 AM
Post #3 of 25 (3618 views)
Shortcut
Re: [AggieDave] In Air Communication in AFF [In reply to] Can't Post

 
Thanks for your answer Dave.

To answer your question, i've spent zero time around AFFI's and ground radios as we don't use them at my home DZ.

Instead we have a JM with a set of coloured paddles who stands out in the landing area and students are trained to go through the opening, identify a good canopy, do their controlability checks and then fly toward the dz.

They then look for the JM on the ground, he waves the paddles and as soon as the student sees him they kick their legs. The student is then brought on the paddles, ie. arms up, full drive, arms half way down, half breaks, etc.

I have done some coaching with Alchemy on an in air communication system though and it worked brilliantly. Of course at the time i had 200 jumps and was aware of what was going on around me in the sky. (I definately plan on buying one of the systems for freefly coaching further down the road.)

When i made the post i had the feeling that AFF would not be the ideal application for the system but wondered if anyone had tried it.

Cheers
PJ


AggieDave  (D License)

Feb 23, 2006, 7:01 AM
Post #4 of 25 (3605 views)
Shortcut
Re: [Peej] In Air Communication in AFF [In reply to] Can't Post

Well, I think there might be a use for them with coach students, I know I could have used it more then a few times. Those times I was able to get away with exagerated gesters and such to convey my meaning in the air.


monkycndo  (D License)

Feb 23, 2006, 7:26 AM
Post #5 of 25 (3593 views)
Shortcut
Re: [AggieDave] In Air Communication in AFF [In reply to] Can't Post

As a coach, I think they would help. For the dive flow where the student isn't looking at you (tracking), immediate feedback to the student would be great.


Miami  (D 17626)

Feb 23, 2006, 8:38 AM
Post #6 of 25 (3561 views)
Shortcut
Re: [Peej] In Air Communication in AFF [In reply to] Can't Post

It would be a great tool but it's not economically feasible for a dropzone to have. It could provide clearer instruction to a student over hand signals, but could easily be ignored just like hand signals get ignored. When a student is experiencing sensory overload I believe they tend to block out audible cues before visual cues, so I don't think it should ever completely replace hand signals.

That being said...I have jumped on a few lvl 1's where the other instructor had in air communication set up with the student. Each time the student was able to hear and respond very well to the verbal instructions. If they were not so expensive I would love to get one to use for my students.


Premier GravityGirl  (D 18897)

Feb 23, 2006, 8:48 AM
Post #7 of 25 (3556 views)
Shortcut
Re: [Peej] In Air Communication in AFF [In reply to] Can't Post

In my opinion....

....if it is standard to use the radio, we'll build up a dependancy on them. If the radio fails or is hard to hear, the student will just sit there waiting for a radio command.

I would rather train them for the real world situtation. Most jumpers don't jump with them on fun jumps. So coming off student status will be awkward. The new skydiver will be used to verbal communication in freefall. They'll be hit with so many new variables at once.

Maybe I'm just old school. We have an "In Air" system. My husband uses it for coach jumps. I like them for that.


Premier LouDiamond  (D 25931)
Moderator
Feb 23, 2006, 10:47 AM
Post #8 of 25 (3521 views)
Shortcut
Re: [Peej] In Air Communication in AFF [In reply to] Can't Post

Peej, I have used the Rare dynamics air to air system as well as one of my own that I designed for wingsuiting. I use the air to air for first flights and coach jumps and can honestly say that the learning curve goes up significantly. More information can be relayed to the student than can be given with hand signals and most people respond very well to verbal/audible instructions as there is no confussion over what the instructions are (language barriers aside). Like any skydiving gear, it is a tool that has its applications and not ALL people will benefit from its use, but most will IMO.

I think AFF students would benefit greatly from its use and perhaps speed up their progress.


pincheck  (C 105040)

Feb 23, 2006, 11:46 AM
Post #9 of 25 (3510 views)
Shortcut
Re: [Peej] In Air Communication in AFF [In reply to] Can't Post

i think mike carpenter who is a member of Euphoria free fly run a school at Lillo in spain and the website say they use it ?Smile

http://www.skydivelillo.com/english/freefly.html


BIGUN  (D 23385)

Feb 23, 2006, 4:18 PM
Post #10 of 25 (3469 views)
Shortcut
Re: [LouDiamond] In Air Communication in AFF [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
I think AFF students would benefit greatly from its use and perhaps speed up their progress.

I couldn't agree more. It would give the student the benefit of visual and audio inputs. How many AFF students have looked at the hand signal and locked up trying to remember which one that meant (even thought they drilled it 100% on the ground training). IMO; having the ability to present an "Arch Harder" hand signal with the verbal "Arch harder" would mean immediate results. In addition, I've seen students with broken lines, line-overs and even remember the video of Shana whose Instructor was hollering at her to "Pump the brakes" trying to get her to release the toggle.

Instructors could tell someone in their ear, "You've got a bad canopy, cut it away," rather than "hope" they figure it out. As high as they pull, a calm smooth voice could talk them through their emergency procedures before it becomes a long situation of hope.


Shark  (D 24499)

Feb 23, 2006, 10:51 PM
Post #11 of 25 (3434 views)
Shortcut
Re: [Peej] In Air Communication in AFF [In reply to] Can't Post

I'm all for more tunnel time PLUS the Rare Dynamics set up. During the skydive students have too much shit to worry about and having someone yelling and pointing just adds to the chaos. I can't tell you how many times I've given the Practice Pulls signal, then taking their hand and "guiding" it to the handle, but they resist. During the several times we've dirt dived (FJC) I mention that we may give a signal, then take their right and guide it to the handle. "Don't fight it!" I tell them. They laugh and say they'd go along with it. I have a lot of video to show otherwise.

On one occaision a level 2 student lost altitude awareness at the bottom end, after an altimeter signal, then a pull signal by both instructors. I was on reserve side and clearly put it infront of him, in between his altimeter and face. He moved is arm as if to "see" around my pull signal. On the ground he copped an attitude telling us we were distracting him. I said, "With what!!!? Pull signals??!!" He even fought the assist. Game over. Whether being told, signaled, whatever he still fought the assist.

We're talking body position to speed up the students learning. This is greater accomplished in a wind tunnel setting. The in-air comms would benefit here, more than in an actual AFF skydive.


Peej  (B 2456)

Feb 27, 2006, 8:02 AM
Post #12 of 25 (3322 views)
Shortcut
Re: [Peej] In Air Communication in AFF [In reply to] Can't Post

 
Thanks for your replies guys. Smile

Once i have paid off my various new cameras, one of these systems is definately on the cards, albeit a ways down the line.

I aspire to an AFF rating somewhere down the line too, maybe once i have a rating and enough experience coaching with the system i may be able to integrate it.

Take care
PJ


Premier SkymonkeyONE  (D 12501)

Mar 2, 2006, 10:58 AM
Post #13 of 25 (3247 views)
Shortcut
Re: [Peej] In Air Communication in AFF [In reply to] Can't Post

I would love to use in-air coms for AFF. I doubt it's going to become "standard" anytime soon due to the expense of purchasing and maintaining the equipement, but I think it's a fantastic idea.

Chuck
AFF-I (among other things)


Peej  (B 2456)

Mar 2, 2006, 10:23 PM
Post #14 of 25 (3222 views)
Shortcut
Re: [SkymonkeyONE] In Air Communication in AFF [In reply to] Can't Post

 
Thanks for your input Chuck Smile


popsjumper  (D 999999999)

Mar 3, 2006, 4:47 AM
Post #15 of 25 (3208 views)
Shortcut
Re: [Peej] In Air Communication in AFF [In reply to] Can't Post

All right, call me a computer dimwit... where to get one?

The only place I know of (www.raredynamic.com) doesn't answer - evidently the server is down or something.

.


Peej  (B 2456)

Mar 3, 2006, 5:27 AM
Post #16 of 25 (3203 views)
Shortcut
Re: [popsjumper] In Air Communication in AFF [In reply to] Can't Post

 
That's the only place i know of to get one too. Sorry dude


popsjumper  (D 999999999)

Mar 6, 2006, 6:21 AM
Post #17 of 25 (3162 views)
Shortcut
Re: [Peej] In Air Communication in AFF [In reply to] Can't Post

$1147? I think I'll wait a while.....
Mad


Peej  (B 2456)

Mar 6, 2006, 7:23 AM
Post #18 of 25 (3154 views)
Shortcut
Re: [popsjumper] In Air Communication in AFF [In reply to] Can't Post

 
I agree that they seem exorbitantly priced. I've already chatted to another freefly coach on my DZ and we'll probably look at sharing the cost of a system in the end.


Premier LouDiamond  (D 25931)
Moderator
Mar 7, 2006, 9:50 PM
Post #19 of 25 (3102 views)
Shortcut
Re: [popsjumper] In Air Communication in AFF [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
All right, call me a computer dimwit... where to get one?

Well I haven't officialy entered into it, but I am planning on making the system I built available to the public in the near future. I am estimating that it will be 50 to 60% less than what is being offered right now and have greater flexability.


Peej  (B 2456)

Mar 7, 2006, 10:50 PM
Post #20 of 25 (3101 views)
Shortcut
Re: [LouDiamond] In Air Communication in AFF [In reply to] Can't Post

 
Well please do keep us posted Mr Campos Smile


Andy9o8  (D License)

Mar 8, 2006, 6:19 AM
Post #21 of 25 (3080 views)
Shortcut
Re: [LouDiamond] In Air Communication in AFF [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Well I haven't officialy entered into it, but I am planning on making the system I built available to the public in the near future. I am estimating that it will be 50 to 60% less than what is being offered right now and have greater flexability.

1. For God's sake (and yours...ok, mostly yours..) get it patented ASAP.
2. Hire me to be your agent. Angelic


(This post was edited by Andy9o8 on Mar 8, 2006, 6:19 AM)


TheDonMan  (D 25289)

Mar 10, 2006, 12:39 PM
Post #22 of 25 (3039 views)
Shortcut
Re: [Andy9o8] In Air Communication in AFF [In reply to] Can't Post

has anyone Looked into motor cycle communicaitons. they have some units that can be attached to your belt and have a noise reduction mic. I'm planning on purchasing them to see if they actually work and the cost is only about $150.
will let you all know when i get them sometime next week.Wink


popsjumper  (D 999999999)

Mar 12, 2006, 4:04 AM
Post #23 of 25 (3007 views)
Shortcut
Re: [TheDonMan] In Air Communication in AFF [In reply to] Can't Post

You guys are the pros...but I know a simple transmitter can be made easily and cheaply and a receiver even more so...I guess the high-tech and the cost is in designing the noise-reduction circuits but Jesus, how many units would you need to sell to recoup development costs on something so simple????

Not many.

And with full-faced helmets I don't think noise-reduction would be needed anyway.

But I really like the 2-way comm idea...but then somebody would be telling you sex jokes in freefall and you'd be laughing too hard to pull. Tongue

.


NoShitThereIWas  (D 25347)

Mar 15, 2006, 7:23 PM
Post #24 of 25 (2949 views)
Shortcut
Re: [Peej] In Air Communication in AFF [In reply to] Can't Post

I have not read the responses to this thread but my opinion is that I would love to have in air communication with my students. I saw the coolest sunglasses ever yesterday at the mall. They were Oakleys and they had headphones attached to them, very comfortable. Anyway, it is an MP3 player and holds anywhere from 60 to hundreds of songs depending on the model you buy.

I was thinking how cool would that be for skydiving, except that the shades flipped up. If there was a way to have headphones connected to goggles and a mic hookup in a fullface, that would rock. Half of my students have difficulty hearing the radio and most instructors don't sound very clear when talking to students while flying their parachute. I would like to see something hit the market soon which is small, ergonomic, more technological and feasable for some of us to communicate with our students in the air and under canopy.


(This post was edited by NoShitThereIWas on Mar 15, 2006, 7:24 PM)


Gandhi  (C License)

Mar 20, 2006, 7:36 AM
Post #25 of 25 (2889 views)
Shortcut
Re: [popsjumper] In Air Communication in AFF [In reply to] Can't Post

ive used it as a student with mikey carpenter of euphoria a while back, and its the tits...

regarding noise cancelling not being necessary with a full face... i disagree, it may be quieter than an open face, but the sound within from wind and vibrations rattles around the inside of a full face like you couldnt believe.



Forums : Skydiving : Instructors

 


Search for (options)