Forums: Skydiving: Safety and Training:
Hook turning tandems

 

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Poll: Hook turning tandems
Unexceptable, no excuse for it. 46 / 42%
No big deal, do it all the time, every jump 19 / 17%
I don't just because it's to big of a legal risk 2 / 2%
Not fair to risk the student 33 / 30%
Only with an experanced jumper as passenger 9 / 8%
109 total votes
 
stratostar  (Student)

Feb 18, 2006, 11:05 PM
Post #1 of 109 (2309 views)
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Hook turning tandems Can't Post

I would like to know how many TM's think it is ok to hook turn a tandem?

~


aironscott

Feb 19, 2006, 3:33 AM
Post #2 of 109 (2209 views)
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Re: [stratostar] Hook turning tandems [In reply to] Can't Post

Stratostar-

I don't like the options on this poll. Sometimes I hook because i want to. More often than not I double break it. Both can be done successfully by an experienced pilot.
I usually cringe when I see a relatively inexperienced tandem I hook it in. I've seen more than a few fuck that up. But some people can "hook it" early in their tandem (successfully)career cuz of their previous experience.
What I think your poll is missing is the option to land however the hell you want option. The options on the poll seem to be leading towards against hooking it in on a tandem. That may skew your results.
Having worked with tandem I's from 0 to 10,000 tandem jumps I can only gather one thing... we all have our own way and not any way works for everyone.
BSBD
AAron


stratostar  (Student)

Feb 19, 2006, 5:01 AM
Post #3 of 109 (2186 views)
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Re: [aironscott] Hook turning tandems [In reply to] Can't Post

That is what I'm saying.
I think it is risking the student who has no clue the danger as well as the possible legal action towards yourself and the dzo
it is well documented thur USPA and other groups that low turns kill and hurt people, so the day you smash someone in
you better have a big ass bank account and a good lawer to defend you and you better hope it is not the familys video camera. I'm pretty sure I can prove to a jury and judge
that hooking a tandem is NOT an industry standard is thought to be wreckless and unacceptable pratice.

~


(This post was edited by stratostar on Feb 19, 2006, 5:04 AM)


Lindsey  (D 17865)

Feb 19, 2006, 7:13 AM
Post #4 of 109 (2108 views)
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Re: [stratostar] Hook turning tandems [In reply to] Can't Post

I think if the passenger understands and accepts the risks, then it's perfectly acceptable.

linz


rasmack  (D 647)

Feb 19, 2006, 7:49 AM
Post #5 of 109 (2090 views)
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Re: [Lindsey] Hook turning tandems [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
I think if the passenger understands and accepts the risks, then it's perfectly acceptable.

I understand the risks and wouldn't want to be the passenger.

Edit: However, I can't spel


(This post was edited by rasmack on Feb 19, 2006, 7:49 AM)


Lindsey  (D 17865)

Feb 19, 2006, 7:50 AM
Post #6 of 109 (2086 views)
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Re: [rasmack] Hook turning tandems [In reply to] Can't Post

me neither Cool


Orange1  (B 2638)

Feb 19, 2006, 7:52 AM
Post #7 of 109 (2085 views)
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Re: [Lindsey] Hook turning tandems [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
I think if the passenger understands and accepts the risks, then it's perfectly acceptable.

linz

I'm guessing for most tandems it is a first jump, and wonder how many of them can actually properly understand the risks?


Andy9o8  (D License)

Feb 19, 2006, 8:14 AM
Post #8 of 109 (2066 views)
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Re: [Orange1] Hook turning tandems [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
I think if the passenger understands and accepts the risks, then it's perfectly acceptable.

linz

I'm guessing for most tandems it is a first jump, and wonder how many of them can actually properly understand the risks?

That's my feeling, too. A tandem student, especially on a 1st jump, will have a general understanding that a person can die or be injured due to the inherent risks of skydiving, and that the inherent risks of a tandem include that the TI may inadvertently make an error in judgment. But I also think the average tandem student expects the TI to at least try to maximize the chances of a safe jump and landing.
(Note: I'm not a TI.)


riggerrob  (D 14840)

Feb 19, 2006, 8:52 AM
Post #9 of 109 (2041 views)
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Re: [stratostar] Hook turning tandems [In reply to] Can't Post

It depends upon the TI's skill level.

A few years back we fired a - hook turning - TI because he decided that none of the rules applied to him. The rest of us bring old farts tried to tell him that we expected TIs to lead by setting a good example, but he did not care.

In the end, it comes down to a TI's skill level.
If he can do "surge landings" gracefully, then he should do them all day.
If she can do hook turns gracefully, then she should do them all day.


stratostar  (Student)

Feb 19, 2006, 11:29 AM
Post #10 of 109 (1977 views)
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Re: [riggerrob] Hook turning tandems [In reply to] Can't Post

While I can respect other point's of view who don't agree with mine, I'm trying to look at the bigger picture.
From a legal stand point (I'm no lawyer) I would think the precedence has been set, due to to fact groups like USPA have been preaching for at least the last 10yrs that hooking as student or newbie is not smart or a good thing to do.
So hauling first time meat they should not be taught/shown any different to what is in print. (BSR's)
Should a good lawyer do his home work and find the many years of "us saying don't do that" it would be easy to show that you knew better then to be doing it, and did anyway.
It may not work the same in other countries (legal systems) as here in the states, but I would think the lawyers would have a field day here in the states, yes the waver might still hold up, but how many TI's would be willing to spend in legal fee's 10K, 20K, 30K ect. to beat it. I don't have that kind of cash nor do I know to many TI's who do.
Ask any of the DZO's who have had to defend their waver in court and see how much it cost to win.
I just think your opening up everyone to get sued over something stupid, when a normal landing will do, if you can't land normal you shouldn't be a TI.
As for "surge landings" if I understand what you mean by that,
I don't find it to as endangering as a hook turn.
All instructors should lead by setting a good example!
Doing hook turns with tandems is not setting a good example IMHO.

~


des  (F 372)

Feb 19, 2006, 2:40 PM
Post #11 of 109 (1917 views)
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Re: [stratostar] Hook turning tandems [In reply to] Can't Post

all u say is not without merit. but sometimes a surge or straight in landing is not the best option.i have worked in a place where most days the turbulence was so severe, that hook turning was compulsory. because the wind direction varied so much, it was almost impossible to set up into wind, so we had to split the variance, and land with as much speed as possible.


airtwardo  (D License)

Feb 19, 2006, 3:06 PM
Post #12 of 109 (1899 views)
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Re: [des] Hook turning tandems [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
all u say is not without merit. but sometimes a surge or straight in landing is not the best option.i have worked in a place where most days the turbulence was so severe, that hook turning was compulsory. because the wind direction varied so much, it was almost impossible to set up into wind, so we had to split the variance, and land with as much speed as possible.

Quote:

In instances like that wouldn't it be an 'accepted' procedure and less likely to be problem as far as a lawsuit is concerned?

It's been a while since I was slinging meat, but when I did we had a set of specified patterns and procedures to follow on all tandems.

Like an airline pilot landing their plane, we were told to stay within certain parameters when both in freefall and under canopy.


(This post was edited by airtwardo on Feb 19, 2006, 3:06 PM)


nicknitro71  (D 26704)

Feb 19, 2006, 5:29 PM
Post #13 of 109 (1842 views)
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Re: [stratostar] Hook turning tandems [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
Doing hook turns with tandems is not setting a good example IMHO.


It totally depends on the TI's experience.

If they can hook it safely more points to them, and yes there are TIs out there who can do it safely.

If they can not do it safely every time then IMHO, they should not do it ever as one day they will hook it in.

I do not have the experience to hook tandems but I do not judge TIs who do it safely on regular bases just because they have more skills than me.

The surging technique by the way has its dangers too. Stalling a Tandem @ 100' I bet it ain't fun!

Now the metaphysical part. Setting a good or bad examples in the face of who? FAA? Manufacture? USPA? DZO? S&TA? Other jumpers? Students? Other TIs? Lawyers?

This should not be about "setting any examples" good or bad; it should and only be about safety, not politics.

If it can be done in a as safe or safer manner than in a "normal" straight in landing, then what's the big fuzz?

Just my 0.02


YISkyDive  (D License)

Feb 19, 2006, 6:10 PM
Post #14 of 109 (1822 views)
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Re: [Lindsey] Hook turning tandems [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
I think if the passenger understands and accepts the risks, then it's perfectly acceptable.

linz
--


So many times this summer, while working at a DZ I had friends and family that wanted to jump. I forrbided them to jump with any tandem master, no matter how good they where, if they hooked on landing,

Mind you, I do "swoop" approches myself, so I know it can or cannot be done safely- but there is NO WAY any student understands the risks of what hooking can mean... I think thats why relative and other tandem rig desginers have put up the 3 year min. in the sport- so participants understand the risks... risks that in 2 hours non of us could ever learn.

hookin a tandem is plain unacceptable. I've seen a very decent tandem master hook all season- but even as good a canopy pilot he was I saw him almost run one into the ground. Its unnessaery. If you want to hook god invented perfectly good rigs- called sport rigs to do it on. Fly video- or pay for your slot.

If a tandem master feels that they have to hook a tandem parachute too land it- they need help flying a parachute.

An approach that I have seen that worked actually pretty well was the Stall surge- or I gues called breaked approch- the instructor would go into half breaks on a windless day and then allow the caopy into full flight and flare out. No reason to be doing 180s with students, its pointless, stupid and reckless.

Like I said, I turn canopies, and know that the tandem masters know how too a lot better than I do- but I wouldnt let me friends get on the front of any tandem master that would hook... even if that person has 400 tandems in a season, all of which or most where landed with a hook.

I didnt vote in this thread, because I am not a TM, but as a packer all season long at a DZ that did a fair amount of tandems, I know that hooking a tandem cannot be broken down into "if the student understands the risks than its ok."- if it was that simple im sure RW and other tandem masters wouldnt require us for three years in the sport before we could get our tandem rating.

Its unacceptable to hook a tandem- you risk more than your own life, and thats that. Just like its unacceptable to hook in a packed pattern, there too, you risk more than your own life. You can't gamble what isnt yours, bottom line, dont gamble someone else's life.


(This post was edited by YISkyDive on Feb 19, 2006, 6:12 PM)


stratostar  (Student)

Feb 19, 2006, 6:12 PM
Post #15 of 109 (1820 views)
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Re: [nicknitro71] Hook turning tandems [In reply to] Can't Post

If they can not do it safely every time (quote)

There have been more then one jumper who thought they could do it every time and did, and were very experienced
and now their dead or learning to wipe their ass again.
Sorry I don't see the point in risking the last few feet with a wuffo on the front for a thrill or to look cool to those watching. If others disagree that is ok, I won't be the one paying the price should it go wrong.

~


stratostar  (Student)

Feb 19, 2006, 6:33 PM
Post #16 of 109 (1809 views)
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Re: [YISkyDive] Hook turning tandems [In reply to] Can't Post

Very well put I'm glad some one see's the point I was trying to make. Please go ahead and vote, your view counts as well.

Its unacceptable to hook a tandem- you risk more than your own life, and thats that. Just like its unacceptable to hook in a packed pattern, there too, you risk more than your own life. You can't gamble what isnt yours, bottom line, dont gamble someone else's life.
(quote)

Just picture your mom and dad standing in the viewing area
for your first jump. (tandem) Now were in a court room and you mom is telling the jury about how every thing was just fine
till the last few feet when "the guy in control for no reason did a crazy sharp turn real low to the ground, I don't understand why"
And now their offspring is dead or broken all over or in a wheelchair the rest of there life.

Hey if you got no regard for your student and the money to defend your self in court, go ahead and keep doing it.
There are more people around who feel the same as me, even if they don't post here.

~


aironscott

Feb 19, 2006, 6:34 PM
Post #17 of 109 (1809 views)
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Re: [stratostar] Hook turning tandems [In reply to] Can't Post

Stratostar-
It seems to me (and please correct me if I am misreading you) that you are calling for a "Canned" tandem protocol. Where all we do is exit stable, do a 360 left, a 360 right, pull at 5000', left turn pattern and straight in landing. Or whatever the protocol may be. But as you well know that is not feasable.
As Des said above, sometimes a hook turn is compulsary given the conditions of the day. As others have said on this thread is that there is a degree of TI experience and ability that needs to be factored in.
Along that line of thought I could not agree more that newer, less experienced tandem instructors should first learn stable exits and simple proceedures for tandem jumps, but once a person becomes proficient in the fundamentals of tandem jumping they should indeed begin to explore more advanced manuvers. Some days i gotta hook as it can be the most safe way to land at the time. But when I was new at this it wasn't. Most of the time I'm a double breaker, but some days the hook is the way to go.
Either way its ultimately my decision based on my knowledge and skills and my determination of what is best for the conditions at the time.

Aaron


stratostar  (Student)

Feb 19, 2006, 6:40 PM
Post #18 of 109 (1803 views)
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Re: [aironscott] Hook turning tandems [In reply to] Can't Post

No, you understand what I'm saying, we just have to agree to disagree.Wink Every one has their own views.

~


aironscott

Feb 19, 2006, 7:07 PM
Post #19 of 109 (1789 views)
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Re: [stratostar] Hook turning tandems [In reply to] Can't Post

That's cool. Its all good. We could probably sit down over some beers and discuss your ideas and my ideas and have a hoot! Can't do it properly over the internet though, I can't type that fast.


Blues and hooks(if you should),Wink
Aaron


divnswoop  (D 18276)

Feb 19, 2006, 7:17 PM
Post #20 of 109 (1785 views)
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Re: [stratostar] Hook turning tandems [In reply to] Can't Post

So while we are talking about unnecessary risks and the student not knowing..... What about the tandem masters that consistently flare halfway and pound their passengers into the ground? I've seen 4 accidents from this in the past 3 years. How is the student to know he is going with a tandem master that doesn't flare the parachute?

...back on topic...

Personally, I see no problem with me (or another experienced TM) doing a 90 onto final. (a slow smooth turn) I have a little over 2200 tandems.....But I DO see a problem where another TI will see me do that and try and copy it when they have little experience with a tandem canopy.


(This post was edited by divnswoop on Feb 19, 2006, 7:19 PM)


shermanator  (B License)

Feb 19, 2006, 7:47 PM
Post #21 of 109 (1774 views)
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Re: [Orange1] Hook turning tandems [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:

I'm guessing for most tandems it is a first jump, and wonder how many of them can actually properly understand the risks?

I guess it was the stack of papers requiring my signiture and initials, signing my life away, and then getting a video record of me signing my life away,.. I pretty much new that there was a very high risk in the sport. but the person should defidently be aware of the TM's intentions.


aironscott

Feb 19, 2006, 7:48 PM
Post #22 of 109 (1774 views)
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Re: [divnswoop] Hook turning tandems [In reply to] Can't Post

I agree-
Not flying a parachute to the end of its potential flight is a problem that I see with people over and over again. I think that I spend more time coaching against that than any single other thing in skydiving. Its human nature to reach out to stop your fall when you are falling. When landing a canopy that action just makes you fall harder. And just because you have come in contact with the ground while flying a parachute, doesn't mean that the parachute (and your body) are done flying. Its definently an issue that doesn't get its fair due.
Denny Crane


Premier billvon  (D 16479)
Moderator
Feb 19, 2006, 8:14 PM
Post #23 of 109 (1759 views)
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Re: [stratostar] Hook turning tandems [In reply to] Can't Post

How about what I refer to as a "jennifer landing" - a half flare at X feet (40-50) followed by a release of brakes and a pendulum to pick up speed before landing? I used to do this on the Strong F111 tandem canopies to get a slightly better flare, but I realized I didn't need to do it on the Set-400 and the like (i.e. more modern elliptical ZP's.) I still see a lot of TM's doing it. In terms of risk it is less than that of a hook turn, but still more risky than landing straight in.


airtwardo  (D License)

Feb 19, 2006, 8:42 PM
Post #24 of 109 (1743 views)
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Re: [aironscott] Hook turning tandems [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Denny Crane


Quote:

SlySlySly


aironscott

Feb 19, 2006, 8:49 PM
Post #25 of 109 (1737 views)
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Re: [billvon] Hook turning tandems [In reply to] Can't Post

Its only more risky if you don't know what you are doing. (And i am not implying that you don't cuz I don't know you) But the more speed I have to trasnition to lift on landing the safer I can exicute a proper landing. Its a simple equasion that I'm sure you are familiar with. (no harshness intended)
However, when extra speed is gained via a hook or a double break approach, I had better know what I am going to do with it or the potential risk for a bad landing increases. On the other side of the coin is if I don't have the speed, and I need it, its probably too late to get it.
Given the modern tandems that we have been able to use the last few years it only makes sense to learn how to utilize their abilities. Just leave the EZ'z, SETs and the f-111s in the museum.

Aaron

anyone else notice that I am way to into this thread?


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