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(UN)Lucky Jump 13

 

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ScottCargill

Sep 8, 2002, 7:01 AM
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(UN)Lucky Jump 13 Can't Post

Friday I made my first cut-away and first reserve ride. Along with my first off site landing, first plf. and first go find your chute now (somewhere hiding in the brush).

Lot of firsts there huh? Unsure

The Dive went fine, I'd been following a buddy down, trying to catch up with him, he did his thing, and pulled at 4,500. As I watched him coming up I pulled. Got a serious line twist (Student rig, F111 - 190cf), The twist untwisted just as bad the other way around, I got that undone, and found my (what do you call the drag chute you hand deploy?) all tangled up in the right side lines., to make it worse as I looked up to the chute itself, I saw a couple of lines coming over the top of the sail. So. "Oh Shoot", Reached down and cut away, Managed to be under full reserve canopy by 1,500.

I've decided two things here, Panic is not an option, and I MUCH prefer the 220 I was jumping before I tried that 190 Wink.


rgoper  (C 32349)

Sep 8, 2002, 7:21 AM
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Re: [ScottCargill] (UN)Lucky Jump 13 [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
Lot of firsts there huh? The Dive went fine,
Quote:

sounds to me like it went to hell.

Quote:
I'd been following a buddy down, trying to catch up with him, he did his thing, and pulled at 4,500. As I watched him coming up I pulled.


you were "following" a buddy down? did he know this?

Quote:
Got a serious line twist (Student rig, F111 - 190cf), The twist untwisted just as bad the other way around, I got that undone,

you think bad body position could have been the cause of this?

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and found my (what do you call the drag chute you hand deploy?) all tangled up in the right side lines.,

your termanology seems to be lacking, indicating to me, your familiarity with the mechanics of your equipment needs immediate improvement/attention

Quote:
to make it worse as I looked up to the chute itself, I saw a couple of lines coming over the top of the sail. So. "Oh Shoot", Reached down and cut away, Managed to be under full reserve canopy by 1,500.


again, you refer to your main as a "sail" i strongly urge you to become more familiar with your equipment before you hurt yourself. this post is not intended to embarrass or serve any other purpose than to help you think about a few things.


(This post was edited by rgoper on Sep 8, 2002, 8:42 AM)


ifallout  (D 27068)

Sep 8, 2002, 8:30 AM
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Re: [rgoper] (UN)Lucky Jump 13 [In reply to] Can't Post

Good points all Richard, but lets give him a little help here.

Quote:
I'd been following a buddy down, trying to catch up with him, he did his thing, and pulled at 4,500. As I watched him coming up I pulled.

Not only did he know, were you over him watching? Vertical distance is very hard to judge and when one person opens they are going to close that distance very fast, 100mph fast, do you realize how fast you can close a 500 foot difference at 100mph? something like 3 seconds, max.

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and found my (what do you call the drag chute you hand deploy?) all tangled up in the right side lines.,

You call that hand deploy thing a BOC and the drag chute a Pilot Chute.

Quote:
to make it worse as I looked up to the chute itself, I saw a couple of lines coming over the top of the sail. So. "Oh Shoot", Reached down and cut away, Managed to be under full reserve canopy by 1,500.

The sail would be your Canopy. and while 1500 may be high enough for many jumpers, it says to me that you must have cut away below the 2500 student decission altitude, since reserves open pretty damm fast i really doubt yours took 1000 feet to open. And was your buddie still under you when you cut away?

This is a very fun game we play, excitement is never far away once you start gearing up. But don't forget it is deadly serious, and bad happens very fast.

I see a few other things wrong here, not the least of which is why the hell are you jumping with people at 13 jumps, you can't have a license and you call him your buddy and he was clearly not coaching you on any kind of jump if he were nowhere near you as you describe. There is a reason you are supposed to have a license first, mostly so when you make rookie mistakes (we all made them) there is not an open canopy under you, or someone in freefall over you.

13 jumps is plenty to know the basic gear components, and like Richard said it would be a good idea to familarize yourself with them before you hurt yourself, and if you wait you will need to know the right names for them so you don't look stupid when filling in the injury report.

In skydiving one of the tricks to staying alive is not playing over your head, I think a self imposed step backwards just might be in order...There are so many ways for us to loose another of our skydiving family, ignorance should never be one.

I don't mean to be too hard on you man, I am glad you have decided to join us. It is often the simple things that save your life. please pay attention to the details. They matter.


(This post was edited by ifallout on Sep 8, 2002, 9:24 AM)


ScottCargill

Sep 8, 2002, 8:31 AM
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Re: [rgoper] (UN)Lucky Jump 13 [In reply to] Can't Post

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you were "following" a buddy down? did he know this?


Yeah, He was on the step, I dove out right behind him, His fall rate was more than mine, and I never did catch him.



Quote:


you think bad body position could have been the cause of this?




Quote:
your termanology seems to be lacking, indicating to me, you familiarity with the mechanics of your equipment needs immediate improvement.
again, you refer to your main as a "sail" i strongly urge you to become more familiar with your equipment before you hurt yourself.


clrarch  (A License)

Sep 8, 2002, 9:56 AM
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Re: [ScottCargill] (UN)Lucky Jump 13 [In reply to] Can't Post

From one student jumper to another---take the advice of the experienced guys who have posted a reply. If they sound a bit harsh, it's because they want you to learn from your mistakes. I started my AFF program a little over a month ago (10 levels, I've passed 7) and have been studying a lot since I got hooked on skydiving. Things that have helped me: I bought a few books (Poynter's books on skydiving and rigging) and read them several times (as well as using the USPA ISP manual). I talk to the JM's about what I've read and ask questions about things I don't understand (both dive and canopy related). I review my A license yellow card before every jump and talk about skills I should be working on. I review emergency procedures before every jump (including knowing where to track in relation to the jump run and how to check the air) and have had a JM look over my shoulder several times while I do my gear check. Say out loud everything you're checking, what it's called, and why you're checking it so that if you miss something or misunderstand something, they know and can correct you. Sound a bit much? Maybe...but as students we have A LOT to learn and being disciplined early on to develop good habits can make a big difference (at least that's my opinion Smile) Also take advantage of any classes your DZ offers for students--they're very helpful! Use this experience as an opportunity to improve your skydiving---and I would head to the beer store for all those firsts (sounds like at least two cases?)


darkvapor

Sep 8, 2002, 10:09 AM
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Re: [ScottCargill] (UN)Lucky Jump 13 [In reply to] Can't Post

I have a few concerns of my own.

Why was this your first time PLFing? Why did you even attempt to stand-up your first landing? Does a first time jumper have the necessary skills to judge speed and angle? If you stood up your landings, it was luck. If you slid in, then you should have PLFed. If you received the proper training and coaching, then perhaps your decision might have been acceptable. But one important lesson that everyone should follow is to play it safe when they are unsure of their landing. During my AFF, it was required that for the first several jumps you PLF. It is much better to get a bit dusty than end up with a femur sticking out of your butt because you misjudged your speed or altitude (as so many students do).

And as some other people have indicated, you should not have been jumping with buddies yet. Not only will you not learn as much, but you can pick up some horrible habits by jumping with inexperienced friends. Sure its fun to jump with friends you went through AFF with, but during your first 20-30 jumps, safe and steady learning should be your number one priority.

I am also a bit concerned with your canopy size. Perhaps you have had the training (and a low enough weight so that your wing loading is well below 1), but 220 seems mighty small for a novice with only 13 jumps. And then, downsizing to a 190 (where did the 200 go?) seems like a poor choice. Again, I could be wrong, and you might have an excellent canopy coach, but more likely with students, you could have made a poor choice. Would you have been able to land that smaller canopy during a strong wind gust downwind? At 13 jumps, the most likely answer is no.

I, too, am a low time jumper, but I would stress the importance of safety and a bit of common sense. My recommendation would be to think about your skills, where you need to improve, and find a good freefall and canopy coach to help you reach those goals.

Good luck!

--

Vadim


(This post was edited by darkvapor on Sep 8, 2002, 10:21 AM)


ifallout  (D 27068)

Sep 8, 2002, 10:10 AM
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Re: [clrarch] (UN)Lucky Jump 13 [In reply to] Can't Post

Now that is what i am talking about, I am not trying to be harsh, but when you are learning it is your first, best time to develope good habits... I am an incredibly anal student and with only a few jumps there is no way you can ask too many questions or get too many gear checks.

And I love to jump with brand new jumpers, but 13 jumps, that just seems a bit low to me. If you are jumping with others then, I hope they have thousands of jumps, and the rule is they have to be an instructor at that point I am pretty sure, maybe a coach certificate holder at least?

And as far as beer by my count he owes at least 5 cases of beer. Sounds like a party in Bakersfield?Cool


sitflyr  (D 24421)

Sep 8, 2002, 10:24 AM
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Re: [clrarch] (UN)Lucky Jump 13 [In reply to] Can't Post

clarch, you're very wise to learn all that you can about safety and equipment right from the start. Keep that attitude and you'll enjoy a long skydiving career!Smile

Julie


ifallout  (D 27068)

Sep 8, 2002, 10:35 AM
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Re: [darkvapor] (UN)Lucky Jump 13 [In reply to] Can't Post

Another fun thing to do when you friends are talking you into downsizing, ask the guys with over 1000 jumps or some years in the sport how long they jumped each new canopy before they downsized, you will be amazed at how many jumps they had on each one before downsizing.

That is one of my biggest problems in skydiving. When you are in school they tell you get a canopy that is safe, jump it a couple hundred times and then downsize gradually, then you get out of school have 40-50 jumps and people are trying to sell you a 150 Sabre, and telling you how you can handle it because you have stood up your last 12 landings really well.

Patience is a virtue.


(This post was edited by ifallout on Sep 8, 2002, 1:43 PM)


clrarch  (A License)

Sep 8, 2002, 11:37 AM
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Re: [ifallout] (UN)Lucky Jump 13 [In reply to] Can't Post

5 cases? Wow....my DZ holds it to one case per jump with firsts (I threw in the second case for the rigger who packed the reserve). Definitely a party in Bakersfield Sly....but back to the subject of canopies. I'm jumping a Vector Nav 220 (I'm 5'-9", 150 lbs) and have felt very comfortable with this canopy (even got to take it on an off-site landing not too long ago with good results). If all goes as planned next weekend, I'll graduate from my AFF program and be cleared to jump solo. My thinking is to stick with that 220 for a nice, long time...but, my question is this: when does it make sense to transition to a throw out system (I'm still using the ripcord/SOS)? I've heard it's better to transition as soon as possible, but right off of AFF seems a bit soon. Any thoughts?


darkvapor

Sep 8, 2002, 11:46 AM
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Re: [clrarch] (UN)Lucky Jump 13 [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
I transitioned to a throw out at jump #14, and then to a dual handle cutaway by jump 19. Personally, I don't think that either system really depends on the jump number, but the training. There are AFF programs that start you out with dual handle systems, and transition quickly to throw out. The main point is to make sure that you are adequately trained. Make sure you know how to deploy properly, and to make sure you know all of the emergency procedures that come from using a throw out instead of a ripcord. And also, whenever you do choose to transition, just be consistent. Never go back and forth between two systems.


And don't forget to let go of the pilot chute. :)


--

Vadim


(This post was edited by darkvapor on Sep 8, 2002, 11:59 AM)


ernokaikkonen  (D 12)

Sep 8, 2002, 12:00 PM
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Re: [clrarch] (UN)Lucky Jump 13 [In reply to] Can't Post

Disclaimer: I hold no instructor ratings whatsoever.

>my thinking is to stick with that 220 for a nice, long time...

Fine, that's entirely up to you. There is nothing wrong with jumping a large docile canopy.

>when does it make sense to transition to a throw out system (I'm still using
> the ripcord/SOS)? I've heard it's better to transition as soon as possible,

That's correct. The sooner you start practising your emergency procedures the way you're probably going to execute them for the rest of your skydiving career, the better.

> but right off of AFF seems a bit soon.

You are aware that on most(AFAIK) DZs people jump dual operation systems from jump #1, aren't you? This is because re-learning is generally more difficult than learning. The sooner you learn the DOS emergency procedures the better.

When you do transition from SOS, whenever you do that, remember to practice your new emergency procedures a lot. People have a tendency to revert to the first procedure they learned when the proverbial shit hits the fan...

Erno


ifallout  (D 27068)

Sep 8, 2002, 12:45 PM
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Re: [clrarch] (UN)Lucky Jump 13 [In reply to] Can't Post

I looked in my log book and i have hand deploy signed off on jump 12... At SDD first jump students now use BOC relaese systems.

I don't know what is right on this, only what I did.


ifallout  (D 27068)

Sep 8, 2002, 12:45 PM
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Re: [clrarch] (UN)Lucky Jump 13 [In reply to] Can't Post

oh and we do one case per first,,, you used the F word five times in your first sentence of your post... heheh


Premier billvon  (D 16479)
Moderator
Sep 8, 2002, 9:47 PM
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Re: [ifallout] (UN)Lucky Jump 13 [In reply to] Can't Post

By the official Rick Horn beer rules, one case per jump is maximum, even if you do three firsts on the same jump.


ifallout  (D 27068)

Sep 8, 2002, 10:36 PM
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Re: [billvon] (UN)Lucky Jump 13 [In reply to] Can't Post

lightweights,


RichM  (D 100226)

Sep 9, 2002, 9:05 AM
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Re: [ScottCargill] (UN)Lucky Jump 13 [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Got a serious line twist (Student rig, F111 - 190cf), The twist untwisted just as bad the other way around, I got that undone, and found my (what do you call the drag chute you hand deploy?) all tangled up in the right side lines., to make it worse as I looked up to the chute itself, I saw a couple of lines coming over the top of the sail. So. "Oh Shoot", Reached down and cut away, Managed to be under full reserve canopy by 1,500.
In reply to:

On top of what has already been said there is one big mistake that you made. Line twists are a nuisance factor, if you look up and see twists ignore them for the moment and check your canopy. There is no point using valuable time getting out of twists if your canopy has malfunctioned anyway and you will have to cuty it away. From your text above it appears that you may have spent a lot of time sorting out the twists only to find you had to cut away the main as it had a line over malfunction.

Another point to note is that if the rig you were jumping has a student ADD, then there is a serious danger that it may have fired if you had been just 1 second longer. That would have deployed your reserve canopy into your malfunctioned main, with the possibility that neither would have worked properly.

Glad you are here to tell us about it. Please use the opportunity to learn from this.


ScottCargill

Sep 9, 2002, 11:26 AM
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Re: [darkvapor] (UN)Lucky Jump 13 [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
Why was this your first time PLFing? Why did you even attempt to stand-up your first landing? Does a first time jumper have the necessary skills to judge speed and angle? If you stood up your landings, it was luck.


Uh, No. It wasn't luck, it was a combination of being a rated fixed wing pilot, and having the understanding of lift, airflow, wind speed and angle, flaring, etc etc. Out of my first 12 jumps, 10 have been perfect on my feet soft landings. Including my first jump. To be completely fair though heh heh, The other two one was a bit harder on my feet landing, and one was a butt slide.

The main contributing factor to all those stand up landings was a huge main. the smallest main I'd jumped to that point was loaded at like .5 - .58 depending on which rig I used, I was using 288's for the most part.

I made 5 jumps yesterday and as I had transitioned to a hand deploy a couple of weeks ago, I've been jumping a quasar 220 zero P main. 3 out of the 5 were plf'd, one was perfect on my feet, the last was a two step run out.

I'm still working on getting that timing down for how much and when to flare this rig with and without wind.

For the record, I'm 6' and 145lbs. I don't believe the 220 is too small for me, and I'm ALL for the saying BIGGER is better. I'm in NO hurry to downsize, the 220 is just the biggest hand deploy rig they have for students.

Myself and the DZ owner discussed which rigs were availible, as I would like to learn more about the different types of mains, containers etc. having NO clue what one container has over another, which mains do what etc. So he handed me his old rig which was the 190. Still well below the 1:1 wing load for me. (.86)

As for jumping with my buddy. I do realize that vertical seperation is deciving at altitude, both myself and my friend perform high risk tasks in our jobs. So saftey IS always in our minds. His fall rate is much more than mine, so we're having a problem with the vertical issue, but HORIZONTAL... We're more than happy if we can just keep ourselves within sight of each other.

That jump friday we had a minimum of 500' horizontal clearance between the two of us at all times (keeping in mind that yeah distance period is hard to judge at altitude), I was above him, but kept a large distance away the entire time. We're in no hurry to do anything more than that for a long while.

All that dive was for me was to give him a referance point to work from, my only goal was to keep him in sight and maintain clearance.

Over all We're not overly aggressive with what we're doing.


ScottCargill

Sep 9, 2002, 11:32 AM
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Re: [RichM] (UN)Lucky Jump 13 [In reply to] Can't Post

Thanks.

As I looked up and saw the line twist the main hadn't deployed more than say 1/4 -1/2 its size?? Figure something like 10 twists or so, I really didn't see the line over until I'd untwisted around to the retwisted situation and got that untwisted where the main opened up to full deployment.

Then I saw the drag chute was tangled in the risers, and as I looked up from there saw the line over.

And yeah as a novice I've no doubt I spent a lot of time from the point of untwisting to finally spotting the line over. though I can't figure that will improve without a lot more experiance??

Thanks again.


ScottCargill

Sep 9, 2002, 11:45 AM
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Re: [ifallout] (UN)Lucky Jump 13 [In reply to] Can't Post

I had plenty of horizontal seperation. I made the rookie mistake of watching him pull at 4,500 and as he came up I tried to time my release to meet him. Course that didn't work, All day yesterday we pulled at 4,500. and all 5 jumps he ended up above me a bit, Turns out that the rig I've been jumping snivel's a lot. He told me he could hear me coming every time, and the last jump of the day he was close enough and had an eyeball on me the entire time, I'd snivel'd right past him (relitively speaking).



So yeah, we're far enough away to maintain safety as far as seperation is concerned, though something you said makes me ask a stupid question now, IS there a requirement for you to have a ticket before you can jump with someone? Other than a rated coach or something like that? I mean For the sake of argument, we're not trying anything so stupid as to do a poised exit hanging on to each other or anything like that, but to have him jump off the step, and me dive after him a second later??



Gotta run, Need to be two and a half hours down the road... work never ends, gotta go nuke a pipe somewhere.


rgoper  (C 32349)

Sep 9, 2002, 12:46 PM
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Re: [ScottCargill] (UN)Lucky Jump 13 [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
Turns out that the rig I've been jumping snivel's a lot. He told me he could hear me coming every time, and the last jump of the day he was close enough and had an eyeball on me the entire time, I'd snivel'd right past him (relitively speaking).

fellas:

listen to an old man...stop what your doing. if you don't your at a high "risk factor" for serious injury, or death. from what you've said, in my opinion, one of you guys is going to fall through the others main. the sport is dangerous enough without this added risk. THINK


darkvapor

Sep 9, 2002, 1:43 PM
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Re: [ScottCargill] (UN)Lucky Jump 13 [In reply to] Can't Post

For one, I do not see how you can justify your actions by saying you are a fixed wing pilot or have a dangerous job. Being an aerospace engineer, I have an extensive knowledge of airfoils and fluid dynamics as well, but that does not qualify me to jump a sub-100 sq ft Stiletto either. It doesn't matter if you are a Blue Angels pilot with 20 years experience, it is not simple transferring fixed wing piloting skills to a parachuting.

But coming to a more important point, and more of what you were asking in another post: Your not going to find an explicit regulation that is going to prohibit you from jumping with buddies (as far as I am aware of). However, have you done your coach jumps yet? Have you been attempting reaching the goals of your A license? You pick up horrible habits jumping solo and with buddies who can not observe you and give you postive feedback. If you haven't done your coach jumps, then you might be in a backslide when you think you are falling through a column of air. Or your turns might have a radius of 20 feet. At 13 jumps, you are not able to self diagnose these problems, and they could turn into a nightmare when you start working on your license requirements.


(This post was edited by darkvapor on Sep 9, 2002, 5:54 PM)


clrarch  (A License)

Sep 9, 2002, 3:13 PM
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Re: [ScottCargill] (UN)Lucky Jump 13 [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
I had plenty of horizontal seperation. I made the rookie mistake of watching him pull at 4,500 and as he came up I tried to time my release to meet him. Course that didn't work

Hmmm, this "rookie" mistake concerns me a bit (bear in mind I'm a rookie, as well)....shouldn't you be watching your altimeter to make sure you wave-off and pull at the proper altitude--rather than trying to time it off of someone else? What if your buddy lost altitude awareness and pulled low? Would you have recognized that or continued to follow him? Losing altitude awareness can happen, especially when you're a student getting preoccupied with maneuvers---happened to me on my sixth jump (which got me a good talkin' to by every JM I'd jumped with---and those I hadn't) Given the situation you described in your first post, had you been low, it could have been disastrous...


riddler  (D 10234)

Sep 9, 2002, 5:06 PM
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Re: [ScottCargill] (UN)Lucky Jump 13 [In reply to] Can't Post

Hey guys - let's not get gruff with people that are still learning (I'm still learning) and have the courage to admit their mistakes. No one was hurt, so it becomes an educational experience. Will anyone hear swear that they've never done anything stupid out of ignorance that could have got themselves killed? I didn't think so. On my 13th jump, I did my first hop-n-pop on my first pack job Crazy

Scott - there are some good points here like not jumping with anyone that doesn't have a LOT of experience until you have more solos and not downsizing too quickly. All good advice.

But let me give you just one thing to think about to try to improve on future jumps. Many of the problems you had were caused by the bad deployment, which is 90% of the time due to bad body position on opening. As you are reaching for the pilot chute, look at the horizon and make sure you are pointed the same way. As you open and all through deployment, keep flying your body, so that you maintain your heading. Only when the parachute is fully deployed should you think about not flying your body anymore. It's easy to think "whew, the pilot chute is out, now I can stop flying and let the parachute do it's work", but that won't give you good deployments, since your body might start to spin or wobble, causing a bad deployment.

Go out solo for the next several jumps and remind yourself why you worked hard to get through AFF - it's fun to just fall and watch the world from 2 miles high. Go back up to 220 - I went DOWN to 220 after 30 jumps, and I weigh 160 - remember you have thousands of jumps ahead of you - no need to rush anything. Practice your body position on deployment - it will make a big difference in everything - confidence, safety, stress - when you have consistantly good openings.


RichM  (D 100226)

Sep 9, 2002, 6:05 PM
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Re: [riddler] (UN)Lucky Jump 13 [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Hey guys - let's not get gruff with people that are still learning

Agreed, and we're all still learning - its one of the great things about this sport. There is a lot of info in this thread so take your time and soak it all in. I would add that it's very important to remain altitude aware when fighting a canopy that wants to play foul, but it is critically important that we do. Quite a few people have fought a malfunctioned canopy into the ground with no attempt to cutaway and deploy the reserve.

Have fun, be safe,


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