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Winter jumping -- Ski gloves okayed -- Possible dangers?

 

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mdrejhon  (C 3268)

Feb 10, 2006, 7:08 PM
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Winter jumping -- Ski gloves okayed -- Possible dangers? Can't Post

Hi,

A group of us from the area (Ottawa) are going to do winter jumping again tomorrow Saturday at a small town DZ that is confirmed open tomorrow. It'll be freezing at about -10 degrees, but mainly sunny at very slow 5 kph winds.

Some of the much more experienced jumpers use ski gloves. They (more than one, including one of the owners) have already permitted me to go ahead and use my ski gloves if I wish. However, I have observed that ski gloves are slippery on hackey handles and my cutaway pillow. I've resisted and used my Newmann gloves, but it was a warmer winter jump day earlier. But not this time...

On dirt dive tests in my bedroom testing all my gloves for their safety, it's quite obvious my Newmann sticky-tack gloves win. However, this will be the coldest I've jumped, so I am thinking I want something warmer.

I was still able to dirt-dive my ski gloves though, knowing what my hackey handle feels like now. I know that in a dirt dive pratice pull, I can feel and pull my hackey with my ski gloves, just simply needs a stronger grip on the hackey. If there's any reason I can't pull with my ski gloves, I can just throw them away (I tested emergency glove throwaway in my dirt dive) to pull using my bare hand. Time elapsed is about 2 seconds. But let's be safe, round that up to 1000 feet. EP's are a little more difficult with them on, so let's give me more than 5 extra seconds just to be safe. In case I have difficulty pulling or doing EP's with the gloves on.

So I figure pulling higher at 4000 feet with ski gloves should be okay, considering I can easily "cutaway" my gloves anyway by pulling them off and throwing them away to continue with EP's or pull if I have difficulty. (in the very unlikely event I am unable to with my gloves on). The extra altitude gives me more than enough time, and my ski gloves are easy to pull off. They are cheap (Boxing Day $10 Special) so I don't care about throwing them away if I unexpectedly have problems with gloves. Better that than frostbitten hands wearing thin sticky-tacky gloves, since we may be doing some (heaven forbid), FREEFALLS in these temperatures!

Bad thinking?
Reasonable thinking?

I'm seeking additional opinions beyond what I've heard from others already.


(This post was edited by mdrejhon on Feb 10, 2006, 7:15 PM)


sundevil777  (D License)

Feb 10, 2006, 7:52 PM
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Re: [mdrejhon] Winter jumping -- Ski gloves okayed -- Possible dangers? [In reply to] Can't Post

The dangers of ski gloves are definite. It has contributed to deaths.

Much better to get some of the tight, thin latex or whatever material surgical sorta gloves and use those under your newmans. They make an amazing difference in the warmth. You can get them at any drugstore.

There are other options, such as gloves made for water sports that use a thin layer of neoprene or similar material.

Having the soft padding between the outer layer and your hand is not at all good.


(This post was edited by sundevil777 on Feb 10, 2006, 8:14 PM)


Shark  (D 24499)

Feb 10, 2006, 8:12 PM
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Re: [sundevil777] Winter jumping -- Ski gloves okayed -- Possible dangers? [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
The dangers of ski gloves are definite. It has contributed to deaths.

Exactly. Don't compromise safety for comfort.

Do a search for gloves and cold weather jumping.
Lots of good suggestions there.


BillyVance  (D 18895)

Feb 10, 2006, 9:31 PM
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Re: [sundevil777] Winter jumping -- Ski gloves okayed -- Possible dangers? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
The dangers of ski gloves are definite. It has contributed to deaths.

Much better to get some of the tight, thin latex or whatever material surgical sorta gloves and use those under your newmans. They make an amazing difference in the warmth. You can get them at any drugstore.

There are other options, such as gloves made for water sports that use a thin layer of neoprene or similar material.

Having the soft padding between the outer layer and your hand is not at all good.

I have used the surgical gloves a few times, especially on the Alabama state record 40 way when it was 30 degrees on the ground. Wear the surgical gloves on under your regular skydiving gloves. You're better off safety-wise. Big ski gloves can be hard to use with toggles and everything else.

Those surgical gloves are really something else! They kept my hands toasty warm under the regular gloves! You do want to be wearing leather gloves though, they block the icy wind better. Every jump after I landed and got back in the packing area, my hands were wet with sweat when I got the gloves off. Smile


riggerrob  (D 14840)

Feb 10, 2006, 9:59 PM
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Re: [mdrejhon] Winter jumping -- Ski gloves okayed -- Possible dangers? [In reply to] Can't Post

I have made hundreds of jumps while wearing Columbia ski gloves, including a few PFF dives and hundreds of tandems.
They also work fine when idspatching static-line students and only became a bit awkward when dropping IAD students.
The key is finding ski gloves with most of their insulation on the the back and thin synthetic leather on the palms.
It is equally important to follow the original poster's example by dirt-diving repeatedly with unfamiliar gloves.


mdrejhon  (C 3268)

Feb 10, 2006, 10:34 PM
Post #6 of 30 (2284 views)
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Re: [BillyVance] Winter jumping -- Ski gloves okayed -- Possible dangers? [In reply to] Can't Post

The surgical gloves are a good idea, I'll see if I can make a quick stop at the drugstore.

Yes, I was already aware of the dangers of the ski gloves. That's why I dirt dived them, and also why I did not jump with gloves last time. But were others aware of the dangers of the ski gloves when they had problems or were killed jumping with them? And why do a significant number of Canadian winter jumpers seem to persist on jumping with ski gloves, even instructors? They wouldn't let a student jump with ski gloves, but let novices like me do it. And why am I given permission by two separate instructor-rated people to jump with them? I guess that's Canada, eh. I'm more worried about my cutaway handle than the hackey, though, but I have also resolved to "cutaway" (remove and throwaway) my gloves if I ever have 1 second of glove-related difficulty in the process of getting a good canopy over my head, and to adjust my pull altitude accordingly. Perhaps there are unforeseen effects, such as airy gloves ballooning, slippery gloves dropping a toggle, no pulls if hackey shifts and becomes impossible to feel with gloves, or glove sweating making it hard to pull off gloves in an emergency as could happen, (although my skiing experience has shown this to not be a problem.), or any other unforeseen issue. Though I am personally trying my best to be aware of such issues...

Nontheless, I now see there's a known compromise solution -- latex/surgical gloves from the drugstore, under my existing Newmann gloves. (But if my hands freeze despite latax layer, I may have reconsider the ski glove option for the next jump of the day -- we'll see -- depending on how cold it is at altitude. At least I will skydive aware of the glove risk, if I do.)

Thanks for the tips!


(This post was edited by mdrejhon on Feb 10, 2006, 10:43 PM)


grue  (D License)

Feb 10, 2006, 11:21 PM
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Re: [mdrejhon] Winter jumping -- Ski gloves okayed -- Possible dangers? [In reply to] Can't Post

I don't know if this will be any help to you, but here goes:

My ski/snowboard gloves have removable liners. I reckon you could likely buy them separately, or just find some very thin fleece gloves at your local mega-uber-mart. I wear these inside my american football gloves that I jump in if it's cold out. I wore them most recently on my 21,800' jump at Eloy, and they were more than warm enough. I've also used 'em on some of the colder days out here, and I've never had my hands cool enough to even notice discomfort. The best part is that you have almost the exact same feel as you normally would with your normal gloves.


peckerhead

Feb 10, 2006, 11:40 PM
Post #8 of 30 (2258 views)
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Re: [mdrejhon] Winter jumping -- Ski gloves okayed -- Possible dangers? [In reply to] Can't Post

I have made hundreds of jumps in winter in very cold extreme conditions. Para-Ski meets in the Northwest and rocky mountains, little cottonwood canyon in Utah, etc.

The best combination I have found is thin poly-pro or similar synthetic liners inside snug-fitting cowhide leather gloves.

For the best grip the suede side out and the smooth side in. Even had a cutaway with no problem using this combo. This still gives you good dexterity and toggle/ handle manipulation while still protecting your hands from the elements. I always want something on my hands with an open door at altitude when it's really cold.

I have also used this combo shooting video in the winter, the liners give you the dexterity needed to push buttons or switches before the jump. You just put the outer leather "shells" on before you exit.

You are not in the air that long so I would stay away from bulky ski-type gloves. The clothing you will be wearing is also going to be bulky and "puffy" so handles need to be easy to feel and grab.


Andy9o8  (D License)

Feb 11, 2006, 4:42 AM
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Re: [mdrejhon] Winter jumping -- Ski gloves okayed -- Possible dangers? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
I have also resolved to "cutaway" (remove and throwaway) my gloves if I ever have 1 second of glove-related difficulty in the process of getting a good canopy over my head...

This one thing jumped out at me. Yes, pulling higher is good; but still - I'd be concerned that building an extra step like pulling off your gloves into your EPs, while all amped-up by the situation, could be squirrely with a hi-speed partial mal like a baglock...just a thought...


L.O.  (D 16935)

Feb 11, 2006, 6:36 AM
Post #10 of 30 (2210 views)
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Re: [mdrejhon] Winter jumping -- Ski gloves okayed -- Possible dangers? [In reply to] Can't Post

     Spend the money and go get some northface winter gloves or a simalr glove. they are 40 bucks and supper warm. They are thin and provide good feel. I have a lot of winter jumps (perhaps 1000). I never jump without gloves winter or summer. motorcycle gloves in the summer provide unlimited feel and the correct glove in the winter can do almost the same.


Premier NWFlyer  (D License)

Feb 11, 2006, 6:59 AM
Post #11 of 30 (2201 views)
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Re: [mdrejhon] Winter jumping -- Ski gloves okayed -- Possible dangers? [In reply to] Can't Post

I have a pair of these and like them for the really cold days. They're discounted right now to a more reasonable price.


riggerrob  (D 14840)

Feb 11, 2006, 8:51 AM
Post #12 of 30 (2177 views)
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Re: [peckerhead] Winter jumping -- Ski gloves okayed -- Possible dangers? [In reply to] Can't Post

... snug-fitting cowhide leather gloves.

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

I disagree.
If you outer (leather) gloves are already a snug fit, then extra liners can make them too tight.

Tight-fitting (and this is subjective) gloves inhibit blood-flow to fingers and are worse than no gloves.
This may not be an issue with all you young pups with good circulation, but becomes a big issue with POPS who smoke heavily or have already frozen their hands a few times. We just don't have as many capillaries as you young pups.

That is why I prefer gloves loose enough to allow blood flow. Then it becomes a trade-off with tactile sensitivity.


peckerhead

Feb 11, 2006, 8:59 AM
Post #13 of 30 (2173 views)
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Re: [riggerrob] Winter jumping -- Ski gloves okayed -- Possible dangers? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
If you outer (leather) gloves are already a snug fit, then extra liners can make them too tight.

>>>>Snug WITH the liners, not without.


DeNReN  (B 5642)

Feb 11, 2006, 5:17 PM
Post #14 of 30 (2122 views)
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Re: [mdrejhon] Winter jumping -- Ski gloves okayed -- Possible dangers? [In reply to] Can't Post

My brother gave me a pair of Fox cold weather motorcross gloves for Xmass....Jumped with them last weekend (-8 deg C @ 10k)....good thin gloves ....good feel. Made a point of keeping my fingers moving on the ride to alt. to keep the blood flowing and warm....only started to notice the cold on final.(and I pulled high 5K)

May I also suggest wearing a pair of ski gloves over your thin gloves on the ride to alt. (making sure to keep the blood flowing) and removing them when geting ready for jump run..stash them in your suit or in the plane.


mdrejhon  (C 3268)

Feb 11, 2006, 6:05 PM
Post #15 of 30 (2112 views)
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Re: [mdrejhon] Winter jumping -- Ski gloves okayed -- Possible dangers? [In reply to] Can't Post

I did two more jumps today.

I got a 10-pack of surgical gloves and wore a pair under my Newmann tacky leather gloves (vinyl gloves, since they were out of 10-pack latex gloves). That helped quite a bit, especially on the first jump at -10C for a 4K jump. Although I still got my hands very cold on the second jump when the temperature fell a bit further to -15C and I used a 10 second delay from a 5K jump.

Is there a difference in warmth between latex gloves and vinyl gloves as an inside layer for my Newmann gloves?

Thanks for the link to the other gloves, I saw someone wearing a pair of those, so I might get those as well.


(This post was edited by mdrejhon on Feb 11, 2006, 6:06 PM)


MrBrant  (B License)

Feb 11, 2006, 8:35 PM
Post #16 of 30 (2096 views)
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Re: [mdrejhon] Winter jumping -- Ski gloves okayed -- Possible dangers? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
I did two more jumps today.

I got a 10-pack of surgical gloves and wore a pair under my Newmann tacky leather gloves (vinyl gloves, since they were out of 10-pack latex gloves). That helped quite a bit, especially on the first jump at -10C for a 4K jump. Although I still got my hands very cold on the second jump when the temperature fell a bit further to -15C and I used a 10 second delay from a 5K jump.

Is there a difference in warmth between latex gloves and vinyl gloves as an inside layer for my Newmann gloves?

Thanks for the link to the other gloves, I saw someone wearing a pair of those, so I might get those as well.

you may want to try a cheap pair of driving gloves. You can get them in 'winter insulated' but they are still thin, and have a good feel to them.
This is what I use in the winter, and it works very well for me - even down below -20. (and they were cheap, about 10 bux)

Anyway, I would suggest trying on a bunch of gloves before buying. (might not be something to buy blind off of the interweb if you're going to spend the big bucks on them).
What I did was bring a hackey with me (similar to my handle) and found the thickest gloves I could that still allowed for full range of movement, and that I could still feel the ridges (stiching) of the 'sack through.
Oh, and slippery = bad. fake leather and/or suede worked well for me.

of course, just my opinion, take what you will from it Smile


licketysplit  (A 54321)

Feb 11, 2006, 8:41 PM
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Re: [mdrejhon] Winter jumping -- Ski gloves okayed -- Possible dangers? [In reply to] Can't Post

These are the gloves! They are just like gortex but are labeled "Polartec Power Shield". Jumped in Eugene Or, Thanksgiving weekend, very cold and didn't feel cold at all. Plus you don't sweat in them. No problem feeling the hackey or grabbing toggles. Check em out at REI.Smile

http://www.rei.com/...&vcat=REI_SEARCH

Also have gortex tennis shoes by Montrail so my feet are never cold either!

http://www.sonomaoutfitters.com/...age%3D16%26pos%3D128

I love gortex! Cool

Now if you are still too cold, the absolute warmest is Hot Chillys! http://www.hotchillys.com/...ges/hotProducts.htmlWink

I can't wear them they are too clingy for me.Crazy i prefer good old thermals.
Sly


phoenixlpr  (D 3049)

Feb 12, 2006, 12:28 AM
Post #18 of 30 (2072 views)
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Re: [mdrejhon] Winter jumping -- Ski gloves okayed -- Possible dangers? [In reply to] Can't Post

If you have grip with your gloves OK. If you dont you should not use those. I've jumped in sub-zero conditions in January. I got a pair of gore-tex gloves, but I had a pair of thin leather gloves on them just one size bigger I use regularly. I had the same grip az any day and I had no cold.


Premier TomAiello  (D 22400)
Moderator
Feb 12, 2006, 11:06 AM
Post #19 of 30 (2038 views)
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Re: [mdrejhon] Winter jumping -- Ski gloves okayed -- Possible dangers? [In reply to] Can't Post

Have you looked at Glacier Gloves?

I've never worn gloves for jumping (even in subzero temps, I find my hands don't have time to get cold--but my jumps are probably a lot shorter from exit to landing than yours), but if I was going to, I'd start with the Glacier Gloves, which I've worn for ice climbing quite a bit. They give you quite a bit of dexterity (I can tie and untie knots one handed in them), but are still very warm.


Devious  (B 27921)

Feb 16, 2006, 8:23 AM
Post #20 of 30 (1910 views)
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Re: [mdrejhon] Winter jumping -- Ski gloves okayed -- Possible dangers? [In reply to] Can't Post

What I use when its cold are for snowboarding. They are called Pipe gloves. They are similar to newmans, but a re made of neoprene. This provides form fitting and warmth without loss of grip. They feel so good I forget I have them on.


shunkka  (C 35678)

Feb 23, 2006, 2:14 AM
Post #21 of 30 (1823 views)
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Re: [mdrejhon] Winter jumping -- Ski gloves okayed -- Possible dangers? [In reply to] Can't Post

i jumped at -10 degree with normal jumping gloves...
belive me u want to feel the hackey or a handle more than u want warm hands when u deploy
use normal gloves for jumping and enjoy ur jump
-10 degree is not NOTRH POLE Wink


base689

Feb 23, 2006, 8:31 AM
Post #22 of 30 (1795 views)
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Re: [sundevil777] Winter jumping -- Ski gloves okayed -- Possible dangers? [In reply to] Can't Post

> The dangers of ski gloves are definite. It has contributed to deaths.
What about using some Windstopper (sort of Goretex fabric not "wet/rain-stopper" (as Goretex) but only "wind-stopper") gloves?
I bought few years ago a pair of Windstopper gloves used for paragliding and they are SUPERB!!!!!
They are slightly "packed" with "not-too-thick-cloth" (I don't have a better term in English) but still give you a decent sensitivity, and their characteristics of NOT letting wind pass through make them outstanding for winter jumps.
In case of extremely cold weather, the owner of such Windstopper gloves could wear (very) thin silk/capilene/microfiber undergloves, and off you go.
Just my 0.02


DJL  (D License)

Feb 23, 2006, 9:37 AM
Post #23 of 30 (1787 views)
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Re: [mdrejhon] Winter jumping -- Ski gloves okayed -- Possible dangers? [In reply to] Can't Post

Go to a boating/sailing store. All sailing gloves are made with the concept in mind that you have to be able to use your fingers to tie knots and do other such nimble things.


Dolph  (D License)

Feb 23, 2006, 10:08 PM
Post #24 of 30 (1756 views)
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Re: [mdrejhon] Winter jumping -- Ski gloves okayed -- Possible dangers? [In reply to] Can't Post

Normal layered thin gloves are enough here. Sure, you sometimes get a little cold but nothing that disables you from feeling or pulling your handles. Packing in an unheated hangar afterwards will do that just fine Smile

Coldest I've jumped has been -37C at 13k. I used insulated gloves - not ski gloves but just the more "normal" ones with some insulation.

Winter skydiving rocks. I love the beauty of it. See attached pics :).


(This post was edited by Dolph on Feb 23, 2006, 10:12 PM)
Attachments: nice.jpg (30.3 KB)
  nice2.jpg (27.6 KB)


mdrejhon  (C 3268)

Feb 24, 2006, 2:08 AM
Post #25 of 30 (1739 views)
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Re: [mdrejhon] Winter jumping -- Ski gloves okayed -- Possible dangers? [In reply to] Can't Post

Hi,

(Brrr, that is very cold looking. I don't think I can stand -37 degrees at 13K, until I buy new gloves, although the weather is going to start warming up in March anyway...)

I have gotten all the necessary information I need from this thread, and the new information I have now is that there are various different kinds of gloves. Safer gloves (those of which are used for skiing too) that are grippy and suitable for skydiving, and those that are not. Like some of the neoprene ones that are very grippy and tight. It's possible those at the dropzone were wearing one of those "safer" ski gloves that are deemed suitable for skydiving too. If there is anybody I have offended about my post - including those I may have implied were wearing unsafe skiing gloves - I apologize. It's all in the best intentions, of course.

Thanks to everyone for the helpful information about the various kinds of warmer gloves that are safe for skydiving.


(This post was edited by mdrejhon on Feb 24, 2006, 2:10 AM)


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