Forums: Skydiving: General Skydiving Discussions:
Pilot training, how much to get?

 


1010  (B 28561)

Feb 1, 2006, 11:42 PM
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Pilot training, how much to get? Can't Post

 
I live close to a large general aviation airport, with a flight school.

Since I figure that I'll be spending a lot of time in jumpships the next several years,

I'd like to:

1) Be able to glance at the gauges and know what they mean in the various aircraft I'll be jumping from, fuel obviously but others have meaning as well. (182/ 206/ Caravan/ Pac-750/ Twin Bonanza/ Twin Otter)

2) Be able to land the aircraft if the pilot keels over with a heart attack or stroke, or at least have a fighting chance at making a survivable landing. I suppose if it can be convincingly determined that the pilot is very much dead (not the purpose of this thread please), the aircraft could be abandoned with him remaining aboard.

For these purposes, lets just say it happens at full altitude on jump run itself, not at 2k or something. And lets say everyone else gets off the small aircraft, and an experienced jumper stays to see if they can help for the large aircraft.

------------

To satisfy #1 -- it should be possible with study, but I imagine would be reinforced well by seeing the gauges move and react during flight. So I'm thinking some flight lessons, but not necessarily the 40 minimum hours and FAA test required for the private license.

QUESTION: Are the gauges similar enough across the various aircraft that most, if not exactly all, the knowledge will cross over? Same gauges, called/labeled similarly, in the same general locations? Or all different on everything?

To have a chance at #2, I'd obviously need to know how to land in normal circumstances, which means some flight/instructor hours.

QUESTION: If you can land a 182, can you land a Caravan survivably? No/ Some/ Good/ chance at landing the twin engine aircraft?

Or is #2 just Hollywood fare? On the news last fall a small single-engine aircraft was landed hard after a passenger took the controls, after the pilot died of a heart attack. I believe the passengers all made it.

Thanks for your thoughts.


airtwardo  (D License)

Feb 2, 2006, 12:24 AM
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Re: [1010] Pilot training, how much to get? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
To satisfy #1 -- it should be possible with study, but I imagine would be reinforced well by seeing the gauges move and react during flight. So I'm thinking some flight lessons, but not necessarily the 40 minimum hours and FAA test required for the private license

Quote:

As in jumping...nothing can take the place of actual experience. But as a warm up, one of those flight simulator programs can head you in the right direction.
The gauges are where they are in the real AC and respond to throttle and control inputs.

The virtual aircraft also performs within the actual birds parameters.


phoenixlpr  (D 3049)

Feb 2, 2006, 12:34 AM
Post #3 of 17 (1369 views)
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Re: [1010] Pilot training, how much to get? [In reply to] Can't Post

For #1 I don't think that you will be able o land those AC unless you are trained for that.

I'd rather sticked to my rig and skydiving. I foyu interested in flying take a PPL course.


mark  (D 6108)

Feb 2, 2006, 7:13 AM
Post #4 of 17 (1307 views)
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Re: [1010] Pilot training, how much to get? [In reply to] Can't Post

Most flight schools have a "Companion Flyer Course" either by that name or something similar. The courses are typically customized to each participants needs, depending on the kind of flying they anticipate and the kind of aircraft they expect to find themselves in. As a skydiver, I'd think you wouldn't care much about navigation, but you'd care a lot about what the flight and engine instruments display. In an emergency, you'd like to be able to operate the radios to ask for help.

In larger aircraft such as a Twin Otter, you may be able to sit up front and talk with the pilot about what he or she is doing and what the gauges indicate. Most jump pilots enjoy having a real non-ATC person to talk to, and some are flight instructors. A very few will allow you to try the controls in aircraft that have two pilot seats.

As you make more jumps, you'll become accustomed to normal sounds and normal flight patterns. Anything abnormal is call for putting on your helmet and doing your check of 3's. Unfortunately, the most likely abnormal event is running out of gas, so it helps to know where the fuel gauges are and how they work (not well on a Cessna).

It's every pilot's fantasy to save the lives of his fellow commercial jet passengers by taking the control after the crew has been incapacitated -- like Kurt Russell using his Bonanza training to land a jumbo jet -- but your opportunity will be limited. It's surprisingly easy to make a survivable landing in a 182, more difficult as the airplanes get larger and landing speeds get higher. If the pilot is wearing a parachute and altitude permits, it might be better to launch a 2-way then pull the pilot's ripcord -- another hero fantasy.Wink

Do enough training to feel comfortable, save the rest of your money for skydiving.

Mark


Andre1  (Student)

Feb 2, 2006, 8:48 AM
Post #5 of 17 (1272 views)
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Re: [1010] Pilot training, how much to get? [In reply to] Can't Post

I am a student pilot working on my Private Pilotís License. Most flight schools offer discovery flights. For like $50 you they will take you up on a flight to see if this is for you. It will cost about $5000 for your Private Pilotís License but you can pay as you go. A flight lesson is cheaper than an AFF lesson.

Pilots have Emergency Procedures (EPs) just like skydivers. The EPs a pilot must do are more complex than in skydiving. I have been taught each aircraft is different and my flight instructor tells me I should not fly an aircraft unless I know that aircraftís Pilotís Operating Handbook (POH) or Aircraft Flight Manual (AFM) which should be in the plane. This document will tell you how to deal with an emergency and other important information. Like in skydiving your perceived emergency could be a minor malfunction or pilot error (you forgot to switch fuel tanks and other correctable issues).

I advise taking a discovery flight. You might find flying an airplane just as fun as skydiving. I do. If you have your private pilotís license you can carry passengers but not for hire. After you get your license perhaps the pilot of your jump plane can let you take the controls for a little while under his supervision if the right seat has not been removed. I am not sure if this is allowed if there are paying skydivers on board. You can also ask to read that planeís POH or AFM. If there was an emergency you will be a lot more effective.

At one dropzone I jump at the pilots let me preflight the plane with them, go over their EPs with me, point out reference points while in flight that are important to a pilot. They also discuss issues particular to that plane. Pilots like to talk about flying like skydivers like to talk about jumping


MooChooser  (D 105639)

Feb 2, 2006, 1:49 PM
Post #6 of 17 (1203 views)
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Re: [1010] Pilot training, how much to get? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
I live close to a large general aviation airport, with a flight school.

Since I figure that I'll be spending a lot of time in jumpships the next several years,

I'd like to:

1) Be able to glance at the gauges and know what they mean in the various aircraft I'll be jumping from, fuel obviously but others have meaning as well. (182/ 206/ Caravan/ Pac-750/ Twin Bonanza/ Twin Otter)

2) Be able to land the aircraft if the pilot keels over with a heart attack or stroke, or at least have a fighting chance at making a survivable landing. I suppose if it can be convincingly determined that the pilot is very much dead (not the purpose of this thread please), the aircraft could be abandoned with him remaining aboard.

For these purposes, lets just say it happens at full altitude on jump run itself, not at 2k or something. And lets say everyone else gets off the small aircraft, and an experienced jumper stays to see if they can help for the large aircraft.

------------

To satisfy #1 -- it should be possible with study, but I imagine would be reinforced well by seeing the gauges move and react during flight. So I'm thinking some flight lessons, but not necessarily the 40 minimum hours and FAA test required for the private license.

QUESTION: Are the gauges similar enough across the various aircraft that most, if not exactly all, the knowledge will cross over? Same gauges, called/labeled similarly, in the same general locations? Or all different on everything?

To have a chance at #2, I'd obviously need to know how to land in normal circumstances, which means some flight/instructor hours.

QUESTION: If you can land a 182, can you land a Caravan survivably? No/ Some/ Good/ chance at landing the twin engine aircraft?

Or is #2 just Hollywood fare? On the news last fall a small single-engine aircraft was landed hard after a passenger took the controls, after the pilot died of a heart attack. I believe the passengers all made it.

Thanks for your thoughts.

1) All aircraft are different so you'll need to familiarize yourself with each one individually.

2) Airspeed is critical when landing an aircraft. Know all relevant airspeeds for the aircraft. (stall, best glide etc..look them up.) If you've run out of fuel and you're unfamiliar with the type it can be very difficult to judge the appropriate landing pattern. If youre not even a pilot, make sure that youre spoilt for choice as far as landing areas go. If you need to land amongst obstacles you'll probably kill yourself.
The odds of you ever needing to take the controls are minute. The odds of running out of fuel on the same flight even smaller, unless you yourself let it happen.

As far as the differences between aircraft and landing them goes, If youre a competent pilot you should have no trouble getting it down in one piece even if you don't manage it with style.
However, Ive flown with people who have hundreds of hours and still cant land for shit.

To be honest, if you want to learn to fly then great....go and get a ppl. If youre only interested in case of emergencys, dont waste your money because Youre going to have to spend a hell of a lot of it if you want to have a hope of saving the day.

How many jump planes have gone down because the pilot has lost consciousness anyway?


(This post was edited by MooChooser on Feb 2, 2006, 3:11 PM)


Eule  (Student)

Feb 9, 2006, 11:57 PM
Post #7 of 17 (1104 views)
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Re: [1010] Pilot training, how much to get? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
1) Be able to glance at the gauges and know what they mean in the various aircraft I'll be jumping
from, fuel obviously but others have meaning as well. (182/ 206/ Caravan/ Pac-750/ Twin Bonanza/
Twin Otter)

In the past, I worked for a company that made flight simulators. My job was the simulation of the
instruments. When I started I didn't know too much about airplanes; my boss (a private pilot) handed
me a "flying for dummies"-type book and told me to read it. I read all of it but concentrated on the
parts about all the instruments - after a couple of days I had a pretty good handle on it, I thought.
I wasn't ready to step into the cockpit of a 777, but I felt reasonably good about identifying and
reading the instruments in a business jet. You can also read the FAR/AIM - it's more of a reference
than a "how to" work, but it has some good info. I think you can download it from the FAA, or get
it at the bookstore. Since a new one comes out every year (like the SIM), sometimes you can get
one that's a year or two old at the used book store for a substantial discount. If you're really going
for your license you need a current one, but if you're just fooling around a recent one is probably OK.

In reply to:
2) Be able to land the aircraft if the pilot keels over with a heart attack or stroke, or at least
have a fighting chance at making a survivable landing.

Sometimes I joke with people that the reason I started jumping is that I can't take my Leatherman tool
on commercial flights anymore. Since I know, deep in my heart, that one day the airplane will break and
I could fix it _if I had my Leatherman_, I need to have some other alternative.

Besides, why not learn how to make the jump ship _climb_? If you can get it above one or two
thousand feet AGL, you can use the aircraft you already know how to fly.

In reply to:
To satisfy #1 -- it should be possible with study, but I imagine would be reinforced well by
seeing the gauges move and react during flight.

This is true, and as has been mentioned, the flight simulator programs you can get for your PC are
actually pretty good these days. If you're really into it, buy the yoke+pedals controller instead of
flying with your mouse. Having a big monitor isn't essential, but it helps. If you can, use a 17" or
bigger monitor. The nice thing about the simulator is that you can go flying when it's blowing
50 mph outside or when you're too broke to go to the airport.

In reply to:
QUESTION: Are the gauges similar enough across the various aircraft that most, if not exactly
all, the knowledge will cross over?

The layout of the navigation instruments is semi-standard. The layout of everything else (fuel, manifold
pressure, tachometer, keg thermometer) is not very standard at all. As has been mentioned, figuring
out how the radio works is important - basically, you've got several radios you can listen to, but only
a couple you can talk into, and you have to make sure your headset is switched over to the right one.

In reply to:
QUESTION: If you can land a 182, can you land a Caravan survivably? No/ Some/ Good/
chance at landing the twin engine aircraft?

An acquaintance who is a private pilot has told me of airplane-magazine stories about private pilots
being invited to fly a business jet for a day, and the pilots usually do OK. He also saw a story where
an instrument-rated private pilot got to try to land a 747 on a simulator, and succeeded.

Other than that, talk to your local pilot(s). Trade a quantity of beer for some time with you and him
sitting in the aircraft in the ground, going over all the dials and knobs and buttons.

Eule


ViperPilot  (A License)

Feb 10, 2006, 10:37 PM
Post #8 of 17 (1050 views)
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Re: [1010] Pilot training, how much to get? [In reply to] Can't Post

Without having at least a private pilot or close to it, you'll honestly have very little to no chance of safely landing something like an Otter, CASA, etc. Maybe you'd have a chance in a 182, but the odds are still stacked against you. Probably the best thing you could do is learn about airspeed, altitude and the instruments that go along w/ those. Don't worry about engine temp, oil temp, blah blah...none of that's going to matter at all to someone who barely knows what they're doing. If you somewhat understand the trade b/w altitude/airspeed, you'll have a better chance.

Also, probably the best thing you could do is just try to fly level, keep the aircraft at the same altitude and call someone on the radio and hope to God they can talk you through how to land something like an Otter (i.e. stall speeds, approach speeds, where the flaps are, etc). If you understand how to work the radio, talking to someone who knows something is better than not talking to anyone at all.

Third...like someone else said, just get the hell out of the plane and don't even think about trying to save it (at your stage anyways...it'd be different if you were confident in your ability and understood everything).


F16Driver  (D License)

Feb 10, 2006, 11:34 PM
Post #9 of 17 (1043 views)
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Re: [ViperPilot] Pilot training, how much to get? [In reply to] Can't Post

If you like flying, get a PPL. Once you get that you will realize that flying a Cessna is a lot easier than a large multi-engine aircraft.

Your best chance for survival would be to get out of the plane. Taking the pilot with you, of course.


DanglesOZQld  (F 623)

Feb 11, 2006, 9:11 PM
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Re: [F16Driver] Pilot training, how much to get? [In reply to] Can't Post

Totally agree - start slowly towards gaining your PPL and you might find you just keep on going and get it rather than just obtaining a basic understanding of the minimums. I started flying before skydiving and ended up with around 180 hours flying a 6 seater Piper Lance. Each aircraft is a different beast.

I went solo in under seven hours on a Cessna 172 but there are no actual hours to tell if you could land an aeroplane with multiple engines and different engine types apart from knowing the basics. Mentioned before, best glide speed, stall speed etc etc.

Basically have fun learning new stuff as you go and keep going if happy....it is a whole new world out there when you are flying the vehicle and not just jumping out of it!

BSBD! -Mark.


jdatc

Feb 11, 2006, 10:21 PM
Post #11 of 17 (987 views)
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Re: [ViperPilot] Pilot training, how much to get? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Without having at least a private pilot or close to it, you'll honestly have very little to no chance of safely landing something like an Otter, CASA, etc.

Pretty much true. for reference purpose, I have a commercial pilots licesene and some time in a Beech Starship, light twins and 737 sim time from interning at US air...

I'd almost say in an instance where the pilot keels over (jump plane style) you would alomost be better dumping him out with his emergency rig (if he has one) and going out on your own then attempting to land the plane.

Basic flying knowledge (10 -15hrs) and you could probably land a small single engine acft... maybe a caravan...

Multi engine ecperience (private pilot multi engine land) and you could probably not destroy the otter or casa if push came to shove.... But it's a lot of money to spend if you aren't really in to flying...

I almost got into aerobatic flying this summer, but then I found skydiving.....

Wink
Gotta have priorities.....


trab1925

Feb 13, 2006, 3:07 PM
Post #12 of 17 (924 views)
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Re: [1010] Pilot training, how much to get? [In reply to] Can't Post

http://www.soyouwanna.com/site/syws/pilot/pilot.html

Go there, there they have everything you'll ever want to know about it.

Also the chart for if you want to become a comercial pilot... haha Takes WAYY to many hours though. If you want a to be a comercial pilot that's for a main job such as comercial flying for air port transportation companies.... duh Expensive and VERY time consuming. So unlesss you want to fly multi engine jets at the air port and charge passengers it doesn't really matter. The only rule for private licence is pretty much just no charging the passengers any more than rental and gas prices. And you have to meet the requirement on planes. (single engine blah blah) Yeah just read it.


1010  (B 28561)

Feb 14, 2006, 12:25 AM
Post #13 of 17 (883 views)
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Re: Pilot training, how much to get? [In reply to] Can't Post

>>Your best chance for survival would be to get out of the plane. Taking the pilot with you, of course.


Thanks for the input everyone ... what I'll do for now is to become familiar with the bailout rig and how to deploy it for the pilot, on the way out of the aircraft. I'll solicit the DZO and the pilot for their thoughts about it. I'm pretty sure their instructions for me will be to follow the instructions of one of the experienced guys most likely still on the aircraft, or to get the heck off the aircraft while I still can.

For piloting licenses & certs, maybe next year, recently decided that this year is for skydiving. I do have a few-year old copy of MS Flight Simulator, it'll be interesting to see how it compares with the aircraft I fly in.

Blue Skies


velvetjo  (D License)

Feb 14, 2006, 11:27 AM
Post #14 of 17 (864 views)
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Re: [1010] Pilot training, how much to get? [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
what I'll do for now is to become familiar with the bailout rig and how to deploy it for the pilot, on the way out of the aircraft

Are you sure you want to do this? In an emergency, you're better off getting out and letting the pilot do his or her thing. That may range from riding the plane down to a forced landing (what I'd do flying a 182 once everyone else was out) to an emergency exit. Either way, unless you're a very skilled (heads-up AFF instructor?) individual who's rehearsed some kind of exit drill already with the pilot, you're just going to be in the way. Let the pilot get out and pull silver in clean air.

Lance


HydroGuy

Feb 14, 2006, 12:28 PM
Post #15 of 17 (850 views)
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Re: [1010] Pilot training, how much to get? [In reply to] Can't Post

You don't need to land it, just keep the plane from spinning while I get my butt out the DOOR.Unimpressed


1010  (B 28561)

Feb 14, 2006, 1:12 PM
Post #16 of 17 (846 views)
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Re: [velvetjo] Pilot training, how much to get? [In reply to] Can't Post

I'm considering an unconscious pilot. I know that I won't just leave him/her in the plane and jump if I'm the last one aboard, and can do something about the situation.

- Is the aircraft stable in flight? If not then can I get it stable? That sounds doable in single-engine aircraft after flight instruction. That would give us time. Maybe the pilot will regain consciousness.

- If not stable (then from what I've read in these forums) I'll be lucky to find the door myself, likely as not to be pinned against the inside of the fusalage.

- If/once in stable flight then probably hangout a bit to see if he/she regains consciousness.

- Get on the radio and issue a mayday, that should get a ton of eyes on us and EMS help on the ground as well.

- Do we need more altitude to jump? Is the aircraft pointed away from the city?

- At some point decide to abandon the aircraft, taking the hard-to-move unconscious pilot with me. Would prefer to remain in level flight with my hands off the controls.

- Move (bear-hug/pull etc) the pilot to the door, take a hard grip on his deployment handle, then leave the plane, when we separate he gets pulled and I fall below track off and pull, remembering that my altimiter is zero'd at the dz, not here out in the sticks.


trab1925

Feb 14, 2006, 1:34 PM
Post #17 of 17 (839 views)
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Re: [1010] Pilot training, how much to get? [In reply to] Can't Post

HAHAHA, YAY!!! This is something I can call you guys noobs on!! Oh kay first of all, you could probably let go of all controlls on a turbo prop and it would stay stable for a few seconds unles there's turbulance or something. Also, no it is not that hard to bring a plane down to the ground. SPEACIALY with training. When you take private lessons after your first 15 hours of flying you do solos and you're just on the radio. It's not THAT hard to fly a small air plane at all. I've flown my dads friends air planes in the air some and they are not hard at all. If you had even 5 hours of training I'm sure you could do a landing not very good at all but I'm just saying I'm sure you could with instrument and landing instructions. Plus would you rather leave the air plane with a person knocked out and let it fall? That's just mean, also you could be saving that DZ 200,000 dollars...

It's not a bad idea in any way. Renting a cessna at abotu any airport is about 100 dollars an hour not including gas. Plus the total lessons and renting the plane to get your licence is only about 5000. It's worth it, then you can fly when ever you want too.

It's a great idea just look into it and do some google searches.



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