Forums: Skydiving: Gear and Rigging:
Thow away a 13 year old cypres? why?

 

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huey  (Student)

Jan 29, 2006, 4:45 PM
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Thow away a 13 year old cypres? why? Can't Post

My question is why do you have to throw away(or trade in for a whopping $50) an old cypress. I know that the manufacturer recomends it but why do I care what they "Recomend"?
I asked my rigger and he said he did'nt know either. That he has several that there is not a darn thing wrong with and would'nt feel any apprehension about jumping.
Is there an FAR or something that say's that they are life limited? If there is I can't find one anywhere
If I jump an 13 year old Cypres do the cypres police come get me or what?Shocked


pilotdave  (D License)

Jan 29, 2006, 4:47 PM
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Re: [huey] Thow away a 13 year old cypres? why? [In reply to] Can't Post

FAR 105.43 (c)

If installed, the automatic activation device must be maintained in accordance with manufacturer instructions for that automatic activation device.

Dave


bob.dino  (E 2185)

Jan 29, 2006, 5:02 PM
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Re: [huey] Thow away a 13 year old cypres? why? [In reply to] Can't Post

As pilotdave said, it's a FAR that your AAD must be operated in accordance with the manufacturer's instructions. You can get your pilot in all sorts of trouble for jumping with an out-of-date AAD.

Airtec have set a 12yr life span on the Cypres because, based on their testing, that's how long that can be certain they'll keep operating correctly. One or two no-fires or mis-fires would massively dent confidence in their product, as well as potentially resulting in fatalities, so Airtec have a powerful incentive to ensure the Cypres works correctly.


diablopilot  (D License)

Jan 29, 2006, 5:18 PM
Post #4 of 74 (1851 views)
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Re: [huey] Thow away a 13 year old cypres? why? [In reply to] Can't Post

Your rigger puts himself at legal risk by installing it. You are operating a life saving device outside of manufacture's instruction by using it.
You are endangering the pilot's certificate by jumping it.
You are risking those you're jumping with's saftey if you skydive with it.

You don't have to return it, infact I'm looking for one or two expired ones to have for "projects", but not for life saving.


riggermick  (D 17071)

Jan 29, 2006, 5:21 PM
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Re: [bob.dino] Thow away a 13 year old cypres? why? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
As pilotdave said, it's a FAR that your AAD must be operated in accordance with the manufacturer's instructions. You can get your pilot in all sorts of trouble for jumping with an out-of-date AAD.

Airtec have set a 12yr life span on the Cypres because, based on their testing, that's how long that can be certain they'll keep operating correctly. One or two no-fires or mis-fires would massively dent confidence in their product, as well as potentially resulting in fatalities, so Airtec have a powerful incentive to ensure the Cypres works correctly.


All true, but methinks their market share will start to tank soon because of this. Could there be an extension cycle on the horizion soon? We'll see!

Mick.


huey  (Student)

Jan 29, 2006, 5:22 PM
Post #6 of 74 (1845 views)
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Re: [pilotdave] Thow away a 13 year old cypres? why? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
FAR 105.43 (c)

If installed, the automatic activation device must be maintained in accordance with manufacturer instructions for that automatic activation device.

So that's it, if the manufactuer say's 12 years and that's it that's what you go by.
ajust wondering.
But i don't buy that after 12 years they can no longer insure it's safety.That's what Calibration checks, overhaul,ect. is for. There is far more complicated and older,almost 40 years, equipment(avionics,master caution warning ect.) in the aircraft I fly and We don't throw them away after a certain amount of time, we calibrate, inspect, overhaul. There are life limited components but I beleive to some extent that the reason for most are the profit manufacturer as well.


Samurai136  (D 26609)

Jan 29, 2006, 5:41 PM
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Re: [huey] Thow away a 13 year old cypres? why? [In reply to] Can't Post

Read Helmut Cloth's thoughts on the 12 year lifetime of the Cypres.


bob.dino  (E 2185)

Jan 29, 2006, 5:50 PM
Post #8 of 74 (1824 views)
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Re: [Samurai136] Thow away a 13 year old cypres? why? [In reply to] Can't Post

Direct link to article.


huey  (Student)

Jan 29, 2006, 5:51 PM
Post #9 of 74 (1820 views)
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Re: [diablopilot] Thow away a 13 year old cypres? why? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Your rigger puts himself at legal risk by installing it. You are operating a life saving device outside of manufacture's instruction by using it.
You are endangering the pilot's certificate by jumping it.
You are risking those you're jumping with's saftey if you skydive with it.

You sound like a scool teacher!
The fact of the matter is that the PT-6 on the airplane you jump out of is probably anywher between 2000 and 5000 hours past TBO!(Manufacturers recomended time between overhaul)
The manufacturer says overhaul it at 3600 Hrs, but as a jump plane it operates under FAR part 91 so if the owner/operator does'nt wan't to he does'nt have to.
He has a Mechanic or manufacturer inspect it(Hot section,gear box,gas producer) and makes any repairs if needed and off it goes for another 1200Hrs. And if that's not a life saving devise I don't know what is.Wink


pilotdave  (D License)

Jan 29, 2006, 5:57 PM
Post #10 of 74 (1815 views)
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Re: [huey] Thow away a 13 year old cypres? why? [In reply to] Can't Post

If there was an FAR that said part 91 operators have to comply with manufacturer recommended TBOs, you wouldn't be complaining. The FAA says we have to listen to the AAD manufacturers. The AAD manufacturer believes a 12 year life limit is necessary. What's the problem?

Dave


huey  (Student)

Jan 29, 2006, 6:06 PM
Post #11 of 74 (1807 views)
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Re: [pilotdave] Thow away a 13 year old cypres? why? [In reply to] Can't Post

No problem. But I'm saying, I don't buy the BS that after 12 years it's no longer safe. It can be inspected(just like that Engine) by someone qualified and be perfectly safe. But that sure as hell would put a dent in Airtech's profit. margin would'nt it?


GTAVercetti  (A 44960)

Jan 29, 2006, 6:18 PM
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Re: [huey] Thow away a 13 year old cypres? why? [In reply to] Can't Post

Yeah, they are really reaming this very limited customer base with a 12 year turn around. Unimpressed

If you even want to go down this type of path, focus on maintenence and battery replacement. At least that has SOME semblance of logic.


tr027  (D License)

Jan 29, 2006, 6:26 PM
Post #13 of 74 (1789 views)
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Re: [huey] Thow away a 13 year old cypres? why? [In reply to] Can't Post

 
I guess that's one of the reasons I use an aad that doesn't have a lifetime.. Wink


diablopilot  (D License)

Jan 29, 2006, 6:53 PM
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Re: [tr027] Thow away a 13 year old cypres? why? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
I guess that's one of the reasons I use an aad that doesn't have a lifetime yet. Wink


huey  (Student)

Jan 29, 2006, 7:07 PM
Post #15 of 74 (1762 views)
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Re: [tr027] Thow away a 13 year old cypres? why? [In reply to] Can't Post

What aad is that?
I know that a Vigil is 20 years,that's why I already decided to buy one. But I don't know of any others.


(This post was edited by huey on Jan 29, 2006, 7:08 PM)


diablopilot  (D License)

Jan 29, 2006, 7:51 PM
Post #16 of 74 (1734 views)
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Re: [pilotdave] Thow away a 13 year old cypres? why? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
If there was an FAR that said part 91 operators have to comply with manufacturer recommended TBOs, you wouldn't be complaining. The FAA says we have to listen to the AAD manufacturers. The AAD manufacturer believes a 12 year life limit is necessary. What's the problem?

Dave

You said it before I could.


mjosparky  (D 5476)

Jan 29, 2006, 8:06 PM
Post #17 of 74 (1722 views)
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Re: [huey] Thow away a 13 year old cypres? why? [In reply to] Can't Post

You say you are a pilot. If that same PT-6 was operated under Part 135 would it be the same? Do you get your flight phys. on time, do you get your bi-anual in time and do you have your reserve repacked on tiem?

You sound like a scool teacher!

You sound like a new jumper whining about something just to whine.

Sparky


huey  (Student)

Jan 29, 2006, 8:28 PM
Post #18 of 74 (1708 views)
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Re: [mjosparky] Thow away a 13 year old cypres? why? [In reply to] Can't Post

Why No I don't as a matter of fact. but if I were a 135 operator I'd swollow a shotgun and hope my creditors did'nt go after my family.
Because there are 1 in a 1000 135 operators in the country that turn a profit! WHY?
Becauses of the FAA and Dumbass reg's, like you have to overhaul that $150,000 engine every 10 years or 3600 hrs. wich ever comes first.
I've been operating my own Piston and Turbine powered aircraft for over 10 years (in spite of the FAA's "help") and I know for a fact that just because someone says you should do something does'nt mean you need to and I'm not naive enough to believe that school teacher , college boy BS .
If jump aircraft were regulated under part135 you'd be paying $75 for a jump ticket.
This is Skydiving. A pastime, not a 121 airline.
I don't do what I'm told just because I want to be a good little boy. I' only do it because I Have to or I THINK I SHOULD. I can think for myself.(Spank you very much!)
ICool


(This post was edited by huey on Jan 29, 2006, 8:33 PM)


mjosparky  (D 5476)

Jan 29, 2006, 8:42 PM
Post #19 of 74 (1691 views)
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Re: [huey] Thow away a 13 year old cypres? why? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Why No I don't as a matter of fact. but if I were a 135 operator I'd swollow swallow a shotgun and hope my creditors did'nt didn't go after my family.
Because Because there are 1 in a 1000 135 operators in the country that turn a profit! WHY?
Becauses of the FAA and Dumbass reg's, like you have to overhaul that $150,000 engine every 10 years or 3600 hrs. wich ever comes first.
I've been operating my own Piston and Turbine powered aircraft for over 10 years (in spite of the FAA's "help") and I know for a fact that just because someone says you should do something does'nt doesn't mean you need to and I'm not naive enough to believe that school teacher , college boy BS .
If jump aircraft were regulated under part135 you'd be paying $75 for a jump ticket.
This is Skydiving. A pastime, not a 121 airline.
I don't do what I'm told just because I want to be a good little boy. I' only do it because I Have to or I THINK I SHOULD. I can think for myself.(Spank Sparky you very much!)
ICool

You have got to be a the first I have seen, a "4 jump wonder".

In reply to:
I can think for myself

"You keep thinking Butch, thats what you are good at."


airtwardo  (D License)

Jan 29, 2006, 8:51 PM
Post #20 of 74 (1683 views)
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Re: [huey] Thow away a 13 year old cypres? why? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
This is Skydiving. A pastime, not a 121 airline.

Quote:

And it's also not bowling, wherein if a piece of equipment malfunctions one or more people won't possibly be killed.

If the manufacturer deems that a piece of life saving gear 'may' not be reliable to their standards
after a certain amount of wear, I tend to believe them.

MY life and the lives of the people I jump with is just worth more than a cavalier attitude regarding
my 'knowing' more than they do about something they designed and tested.

By the way....
~My ADD doesn't have an 'end use' date either....Yet!Wink


pilotdave  (D License)

Jan 29, 2006, 8:57 PM
Post #21 of 74 (1678 views)
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Re: [huey] Thow away a 13 year old cypres? why? [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
I don't do what I'm told just because I want to be a good little boy.

Nobody's saying you should. But the designer of the cypres said about the 12-year lifespan (in the link above), "Today we are happy with that decision because the deviations of the units that we see during the last couple of months confirm that we have done right."

So their testing indicates that the units begin to have deviations starting around the end of their life limits. We don't throw the cypres out after 12 years to be good little boys. We do it because thats what the engineering analysis shows we should do.

Operating a turbine engine 3000+ hours beyond TBO may be legal, but it's not necessarily smart. An operator shouldn't need to be forced to comply with the manufacturer.... the fact that engine components degrade over time is a pretty good reason though.

Quote:
I've been operating my own Piston and Turbine powered aircraft for over 10 years

Do you own a jumpable helicopter? 15 year old cypres or not, you could be one popular guy at any DZ! Tongue

Dave


(This post was edited by pilotdave on Jan 29, 2006, 9:00 PM)


huey  (Student)

Jan 29, 2006, 9:32 PM
Post #22 of 74 (1659 views)
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Re: [pilotdave] Thow away a 13 year old cypres? why? [In reply to] Can't Post

I'm not trying to start a Philisophical debate ( sorry about the spelling) I just don't like being told what to do.
All my life I've been told what to do by people who either don't know any better or who are lying to me for personal gain.
You can critisize me for only having 4 jumps(I will Have more someday) but don't lecture me about risking life and limb with used, new, reconditioned,overhauled, inspected, or timed out equipment because I've done it all folks.
I could write(not very well spelled) but write a damned interesting book on the engine failures,Fires, structural failures I've hadin my 13 years of flying. What I've learned from experience is don't take anyone's word for anything.
I could spend $55,000 each and get 2 new overhauled PW1830-94 for my DC-3 and make the FAA happier than shit. But, I know full well that they will fail a main bearing or supercharger bearing within 200hrs.
So I stay with the 1350hr (150hr past TBO) engines I got because I KNOW THEY ARE SAFER!!!!!!!!!
There's not an engine shop in the country that can relliaby overhaul my engines so I stay with what I got(and why I switched to turbines).
That's not the point, but you see where I'm coming from
I know full well(Even with 4 jumps), and although you don't, that an inspected serviceable AAD is safe even beyond 12 years.Based on my experience.
And in reality it don't make rats ass bit o difference If there are life limited aad's or not, But like I said I did'nt get where I am today doing what I'm told. And yes that's the irrational rebel talking but I don't care I CAN THINK FOR MYSELF!!
MadSmileSo that's Why I asked "Why throw away a perfectly good AAD?"
And The turbine helicopters I operate are in restricted category so the FAA won't let me haul jumpers in them!
But you know me!Wink
I'm sure as shit going to do it any way just for shit's and gigglesQSmile
And to piss them off!


(This post was edited by huey on Jan 29, 2006, 9:36 PM)


crazydiver  (D 28022)

Jan 29, 2006, 9:33 PM
Post #23 of 74 (1656 views)
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Re: [huey] Thow away a 13 year old cypres? why? [In reply to] Can't Post

A question I have is have you ever thought of how long you have been skydiving and possibly plan to? I would bet that the majority of poeple who begin skydiving and buy a cypres brand new with their first rig, end up quitting the sport and selling their gear before the 12 years is up. 1000 bucks every 12 years isn't a horrible amount of money. Hell...its 120 bucks per year. ( I realize i'm not counting in four year costs)

Anyway. Good choice on buying the Vigil...longer lifespan and can do more than the cypres 2. Plus the folks who make vigil aren't very sketchy about their misfires...cypres is!

But either way, service life is still a relatively necesary thing. Do I think that Cypreses generally will last more than 12 years and function correctly...I do for the most part. But...there has to be some sort of cutoff simply for the fact that these overhauls and calibrations would equal the cost of a new AAD over time and it would be worth it to just get a fresh new product anyway.


huey  (Student)

Jan 29, 2006, 9:42 PM
Post #24 of 74 (1648 views)
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Re: [crazydiver] Thow away a 13 year old cypres? why? [In reply to] Can't Post

Your right over 12 or 20 years it's not that much money and I probably would buy a new one within that time period anyway.Cool
Just the principal of the matter. don't like the profit driven manufacturer making my decisions for me.
Thanks!


SwampThing  (D License)

Jan 29, 2006, 9:42 PM
Post #25 of 74 (1647 views)
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Re: [huey] Thow away a 13 year old cypres? why? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
The turbine helicopters I operate are in restricted category so the FAA won't let me haul jumpers in them!
But you know me!
I'm sure as shit going to do it any way just for shit's and gigglesQ
And to piss them off!

Quote:

No, I don't know you.

But from WHAT I know ABOUT you.

I wouldn't fly or jump with you.Unsure


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