Forums: Skydiving: Safety and Training:
Would the Skyhook RSL prevent a bag lock?

 


Hawkins121  (A 48520)

Jan 12, 2006, 8:15 PM
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Would the Skyhook RSL prevent a bag lock? Can't Post

I was reading a thread in the incident forum and noticed an experienced jumper was killed because of a reserve that had a bag lock malfunction. Would the Skyhook have prevented something like this?


AggieDave  (D License)

Jan 12, 2006, 8:21 PM
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Re: [Hawkins121] Would the Skyhook RSL prevent a bag lock? [In reply to] Can't Post

That's a loaded question. Although in a non-total situation the skyhook would definately put more drag on the reserve system (more so then the reserve PC), it may not clear all sorts of reserve baglocks.

If you want to be really sure of your reserve's packjob become a rigger...strike that, become a good rigger and actually maintain your personal gear.


Squeak  (E 1313)

Jan 13, 2006, 12:35 AM
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Re: [Hawkins121] Would the Skyhook RSL prevent a bag lock? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
I was reading a thread in the incident forum and noticed an experienced jumper was killed because of a reserve that had a bag lock malfunction. Would the Skyhook have prevented something like this?

That is only speculation at this stage, the interim fatality report has not even been released yet so the poster does not know this, he only heard it from someone.


That being said, as Dave mentioned, the skyhook will speed up reserve deploymment, but depending on why the bag is locked, it may or may not release, even with the skyhook.


phoenixlpr  (D 3049)

Jan 13, 2006, 1:30 AM
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Re: [Hawkins121] Would the Skyhook RSL prevent a bag lock? [In reply to] Can't Post

Skyhook RSL is not the Holy Grail.


karlm

Jan 13, 2006, 1:57 AM
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Re: [phoenixlpr] Would the Skyhook RSL prevent a bag lock? [In reply to] Can't Post

If you have a bag lock on your reserve, not SkyHook, RSL or AAD will help you, that is a packing issue. Unless there was interference with the freebag or spring loaded pilot chute, by the risers, main pilot chute or the jumpers body.

The SkyHook will still work effectively during a main bag lock, and you will be a fair bit away from the falling bag during reserve inflation and flight. Listern to the Bill Booth interview on www.skydiveradio.com he chats about the SkyHook and the advantages / disadvantages of it.

So far the SkyHook has had an impressive few months with alot of live demos, and a whole bunch of saves.

I have three Tandem Reserve Rides, and each time the SkyHook worked like a dream, beat me to the silver each time. Only thing dont do a sudden 180 turn, as you might fly into your main.


voodew1  (D 25988)

Jan 13, 2006, 4:14 AM
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Re: [karlm] Would the Skyhook RSL prevent a bag lock? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
I have three Tandem Reserve Rides, and each time the SkyHook worked like a dream, beat me to the silver each time.

There is no way to beat an RSL(or skyhook) to the silver unless you pull out of sequence or at very minimum the exact same time


Premier skydiverek  (C 41769)

Jan 13, 2006, 6:36 AM
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Re: [karlm] Would the Skyhook RSL prevent a bag lock? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
So far the SkyHook has had an impressive few months with alot of live demos, and a whole bunch of saves.

More like two and a half years...


(This post was edited by skydiverek on Jan 13, 2006, 6:37 AM)


AFFI  (D 25538)

Jan 13, 2006, 6:52 AM
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Re: [voodew1] Would the Skyhook RSL prevent a bag lock? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
There is no way to beat an RSL(or skyhook) to the silver unless you pull out of sequence or at very minimum the exact same time

It is not a race - EP's should be preformed with graceful finesse and only rushed if you are at a low altitude.


MrBrant  (B License)

Jan 13, 2006, 7:15 AM
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Re: [karlm] Would the Skyhook RSL prevent a bag lock? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
If you have a bag lock on your reserve, not SkyHook, RSL or AAD will help you, that is a packing issue.

(Although I am relativly new to the sport) I'm not so sure about this.

If you had a reserve bag-lock, with a skyhook, would you not be towing your entire malfunciton'd main (assuming a cutaway from a partial) down with you.
(This is a guess on my part, based upon the info that I have interpreted on the skyhook. Somebody feel free to correct this, if this would not be the case)

I would think that would add up to a tremendous ammount of drag, and *might* be enough to break a baglock free.



on a side note: would it not be extremely hard to pack a baglock with a freebag free-stows (is that what it's called? - the 2 locking stows, and the rest in a pocket, correct?)
I guess where there's a will, there's a way there's a way, there's somebody stupid enough to do it. Tongue


billbooth  (D 3546)

Jan 13, 2006, 7:16 AM
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Re: [Hawkins121] Would the Skyhook RSL prevent a bag lock? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
I was reading a thread in the incident forum and noticed an experienced jumper was killed because of a reserve that had a bag lock malfunction. Would the Skyhook have prevented something like this?
In the case of a breakaway from a partial malfunction, the Skyhook system initially supplies a force of about 120 lbs. on the reserve bridle. If the canopy does not come out of the bag instantly, that force will quickly build up to about 400 lbs., and then the RED Skyhook lanyard (not the freebag bridle) breaks. So, if a snatch of 400 lbs. will clear the reserve bag lock, then the Skyhook will instantly solve the problem. ( For reference, a reserve pilot chute pulls about 120 lbs. at terminal, and much less immediately after a breakaway) If a rigger left a packing tool in the reserve packjob, then the Skyhook will not help.

The Skyhook can also prevent a bag lock by getting the freebag out of the container, and to line stretch, so quickly and positively that the bag cannot possibly tumble through the lines, or get wrapped up in the bridle, thus eliminating one "major" cause of bag locks. This could be an especially important feature if you have a pilot chute hesitation, and the freebag bridle wraps around the pilot chute, choking it off, and preventing it from doing its job in a timely manner.

These are not "pie in the sky" scenarios. I've seen each of them happen before. Ask yourself a simple question: Would you rather have just one device (your reserve pilot chute) deploying your reserve, or have 2 devices (your reserve pilot chute AND your departing main canopy) competing for the honor.

Over the years, I've watched literally hundreds of breakaway videos, with and without a Skyhook. From what I've seen, the Skyhook doesn't just deploy a reserve faster...it deploys it "better". After all, "Better" was the main purpose of the design. Faster is only a "side effect". Take a look at the "Skyhook Video", and you'll see what I mean.


(This post was edited by billbooth on Jan 13, 2006, 7:29 AM)


goose491  (A 7123)

Jan 13, 2006, 8:46 AM
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Re: [billbooth] Would the Skyhook RSL prevent a bag lock? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In the case of a breakaway from a partial malfunction, the Skyhook system initially supplies a force of about 120 lbs. on the reserve bridle. If the canopy does not come out of the bag instantly, that force will quickly build up to about 400 lbs., and then the RED Skyhook lanyard (not the freebag bridle) breaks.

Hi Bill,

I'm curious as to why this (above) is. I mean, I understand that where the skyhook is in use, the jumper has decided to cutaway the main. But why then, would there be a failsafe which allows it to break free of the reserve freebag bridle when excessive force (400lbs +) is met? IMO, excessive force in this configuration could only be caused by a reserve failing to deploy. And that's one scenario where I might just be happy that the main I decided to cutaway a few seconds ago... is still attached and streaming behind me.

Perhaps I'm missing something, I just don't understand the concept of this failsafe break-chord.

Thanks,

Nick


Premier skydiverek  (C 41769)

Jan 13, 2006, 8:58 AM
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Re: [goose491] Would the Skyhook RSL prevent a bag lock? [In reply to] Can't Post

From Bill Booth: "We have never seen a bag strip in literally hundreds of Skyhook videos. In the beginning, I too was worried about bag strip, so I did a lot of drop tower tests, and designed the Skyhook bridle to break before it puts enough force on the bag to cause strip. The military has now done a lot of Skyhook tests with much larger and heavier canopies, and much higher loads than we see sport tandem jumping, and also have seen no bag strips."

Bill - what was the scenario with the C-130 tailgate deployment, you often use to ilustrate the above?


(This post was edited by skydiverek on Jan 13, 2006, 9:05 AM)


billbooth  (D 3546)

Jan 13, 2006, 10:53 AM
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Re: [goose491] Would the Skyhook RSL prevent a bag lock? [In reply to] Can't Post

Let me answer both questions. At first I worried that the Skyhook would put "too much" force on the reserve bridle, causing a bag strip in certain extreme situations, like an accidental main deployment on the tailgate of a C-130, that broke the right main riser, and caused the Collins' lanyard to breakaway the left riser, resulting in a both fully open, and "fast" main canopy dragging out the reserve bag via the Skyhook. To make sure this would not happen, I did drop tests from PD's tower to determine how much force was necessary to cause a bag strip, then designed the red Skyhook lanyard to break before that force could be applied. That's why it breaks at 400 lbs.


goose491  (A 7123)

Jan 13, 2006, 11:55 AM
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Re: [billbooth] Would the Skyhook RSL prevent a bag lock? [In reply to] Can't Post

Thanks but now I feel particularily Naive.

... What is bag strip? Blush


billbooth  (D 3546)

Jan 13, 2006, 12:41 PM
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Re: [goose491] Would the Skyhook RSL prevent a bag lock? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Thanks but now I feel particularily Naive.

... What is bag strip? Blush
I'm sure you've seen the "trick" where someone pulls the table cloth out from under a fully set table so quickly that all of the plates, silverware or glasses remain undisturbed and in place. This can theoretically happen if too much force is applied too quickly on a reserve free bag. The bag and pilot chute depart, leaving the still packed reserve in the pack tray. Line dump is a similar phenomena.


goose491  (A 7123)

Jan 13, 2006, 12:49 PM
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Re: [billbooth] Would the Skyhook RSL prevent a bag lock? [In reply to] Can't Post

Okay gotcha Wink, thanks.


Ron

Jan 13, 2006, 1:36 PM
Post #17 of 21 (2443 views)
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Re: [billbooth] Would the Skyhook RSL prevent a bag lock? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
I'm sure you've seen the "trick" where someone pulls the table cloth out from under a fully set table so quickly that all of the plates, silverware or glasses remain undisturbed and in place. This can theoretically happen if too much force is applied too quickly on a reserve free bag. The bag and pilot chute depart, leaving the still packed reserve in the pack tray. Line dump is a similar phenomena.

Except with one there is applause, and the skydiving one.....Well...

For my next trick....SPLAT!!!!Shocked


Reginald  (D 28162)

Jan 13, 2006, 4:06 PM
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Re: [Ron] Would the Skyhook RSL prevent a bag lock? [In reply to] Can't Post

LOL! You're a bad man Ron.

Blues,
Ron (the well dressed one!)


Hawkins121  (A 48520)

Jan 14, 2006, 7:38 PM
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Re: [Reginald] Would the Skyhook RSL prevent a bag lock? [In reply to] Can't Post

Thanks, Bill... I already ordered a skyhook but I wasnt sure all of the malfunctions it could help solve. Your posts really shed some light.


skydiverjerry  (D 9092)

Jan 15, 2006, 11:07 AM
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Re: [Hawkins121] Would the Skyhook RSL prevent a bag lock? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
I was reading a thread in the incident forum and noticed an experienced jumper was killed because of a reserve that had a bag lock malfunction. Would the Skyhook have prevented something like this?


bag lock. on both main and reserve

the pilot chute / spring loaded is out and fully/partialy inflated indusing some drag.

the deployment bag / free bag is out and lines are extracted partialy and possibly as far as the final center locking stows.

the parachute itself has not been extracted from the bag.

the risers may or may not have been moved from the stowed position.

with main bag lock
since the risers are still attached to the harness by the single point, (3 ring) system the parachutist will feel slight deceleration.

pulling the single point release (cutaway pad ) releases the risers and hense the crap above your head.

now as i understand it the skyhook works as would an RSL.

that is the risers fly away as you desend pulling the skyhook / RSL webing and extracting the pin.

remember you still need to pull right then left.

with reserve bag lock the skyhook/ rsl has already done its job and pays no part in the deplyment once the springloaded pilot chute is out
i cant see how in a bag lock situation an rsl or skyhook would be a factor in the main deployment and resulting bag lock.

it is important to arch hard after a bag lock as the reserve also likes a stable platform to deploy from

anything i have said wrong please coment guys.


.


(This post was edited by skydiverjerry on Jan 15, 2006, 11:12 AM)


MrBrant  (B License)

Jan 15, 2006, 1:47 PM
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Re: [skydiverjerry] Would the Skyhook RSL prevent a bag lock? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
the skyhook/ rsl has already done its job and pays no part in the deplyment once the springloaded pilot chute is out

anything i have said wrong please coment guys.

I don't think that statment is correct.....

(link from the RWS website): How the Skyhook handles malfunctions

edited to fix link


(This post was edited by MrBrant on Jan 15, 2006, 1:50 PM)



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