Forums: Skydiving: Safety and Training:
Would a bag lock stand you up ??

 

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sky-pimp  (C 104872)

Jan 7, 2006, 11:38 AM
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Would a bag lock stand you up ?? Can't Post

Just an off shoot from PC in tow thread , who has experiance of a bag lock , and did it stand you up in your harness??ShockedShocked





tr027  (D License)

Jan 7, 2006, 12:17 PM
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Re: [sky-pimp] Would a bag lock stand you up ?? [In reply to] Can't Post

  of course not.


labrys  (D 29848)

Jan 7, 2006, 12:43 PM
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Re: [sky-pimp] Would a bag lock stand you up ?? [In reply to] Can't Post

I don't know the answer from personal experience but I've heard and read that a bag-lock will probably create enough drag to stand you up.


mark  (D 6108)

Jan 7, 2006, 12:58 PM
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Re: [tr027] Would a bag lock stand you up ?? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
of course not

Fixed it for you.

For body position under a towed pilot chute, watch a tandem video. The tandem pair stays face to earth because the drogue is attached at the jumpers' CG (more or less).

For a bag lock, the attachment is at the shoulders. You tow a bag lock via the risers, after all. Your body rotates so the CG is under the attachment point, into a standing position (more or less). With a bag lock, you could stay belly to earth only if you could fall as slowly as your pilot chute.

There are some aerodynamic issues (CP: Center of Pressure, for example), but they don't affect the gist of what's happening.

Mark


rushmc  (No License)

Jan 7, 2006, 3:00 PM
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Re: [sky-pimp] Would a bag lock stand you up ?? [In reply to] Can't Post

I have had a bag lock. It did NOT stand me up.


labrys  (D 29848)

Jan 7, 2006, 3:05 PM
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Re: [rushmc] Would a bag lock stand you up ?? [In reply to] Can't Post

Wow. Did you find out what caused the bag lock? Were the lines tangled anywhere on your rig?


davelepka  (D 21448)

Jan 7, 2006, 3:11 PM
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Re: [sky-pimp] Would a bag lock stand you up ?? [In reply to] Can't Post

 
It might. It might not. Sucks either way.

Check out the "Breakaway' video if you get a chance. It's got the best footage of all the major mals. They were all intentionally rigged, and ridden for awhile, and the video is from multiple cameras, and awesome.

Seeing it all happen in real time will answer alot of questions and 'what if's'.

I think it also has a section on two-outs, again with great video of intentional two-out scenarios.


mark  (D 6108)

Jan 7, 2006, 4:02 PM
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Re: [rushmc] Would a bag lock stand you up ?? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
I have had a bag lock. It did NOT stand me up.

I'll confess I don't understand the physics of this, and I'm prepared to be wrong.

Could you describe the event in more detail, please? For example, what kind of pilot chute, and was there any problem with the pilot chute? Were the lines fully extended and just the locking stows failed to unlock, or were the lines tangled in some way?

Thanks!
Mark


pilotdave  (D License)

Jan 7, 2006, 4:52 PM
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Re: [mark] Would a bag lock stand you up ?? [In reply to] Can't Post

You can see a great shot of a baglock in the Skyhook video at http://www.relativeworkshop.com/...?Submit=View+Skyhook.

The jumper is somewhere between stood up and on his belly. It's all going to depend on where his new center of pressure ends up in relation to his center of gravity.

Dave


rushmc  (No License)

Jan 7, 2006, 4:57 PM
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Re: [labrys] Would a bag lock stand you up ?? [In reply to] Can't Post

I crossed one line from one stow set to the other. I was using super banz so they did not break.......result, bag lock. My one and only malBlush


rushmc  (No License)

Jan 7, 2006, 5:00 PM
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Re: [mark] Would a bag lock stand you up ?? [In reply to] Can't Post

I posted some of the detail you are looking for alread. The pilot chute is the one that came from Mirage so nothing out of place there.

Crossed a stow, (caught a previous line loop in the next stow) and I was using super banz so it did not break.


mark  (D 6108)

Jan 7, 2006, 5:16 PM
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Re: [rushmc] Would a bag lock stand you up ?? [In reply to] Can't Post

Okay, I watched the RWS video pilotdave pointed to, and I see that a baglock does not generate as much drag as I thought it did.

I was wrong.

My apologies, tr027 & ruschmc.

Mark


Trae  (Student)

Jan 7, 2006, 10:12 PM
Post #13 of 45 (2397 views)
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Re: [sky-pimp] Would a bag lock stand you up ?? [In reply to] Can't Post

in reply to who has experiance of a bag lock , and did it stand you up in your harness??
...........................................

Yep ...I've had a couple of bag locks. One with a Paracommander (thick lines through thick bands ) and another that some-one gave to me by doubling my bands.

Neither one stood me up. The overpowering feeling is that it's not slowing you down at all though it does tug at your shoulders a little.

Stability issues for cutaway & reserve deployment are fairly minimal as it's definite where the lines, bag and P/C are ...ie above you.

Don't muck around trying to shake it out or anything stupidly gung-ho...just get rid of it and bang out that reserve.

Angelic


Premier billvon  (D 16479)
Moderator
Jan 7, 2006, 10:26 PM
Post #14 of 45 (2393 views)
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Re: [labrys] Would a bag lock stand you up ?? [In reply to] Can't Post

>a bag-lock will probably create enough drag to stand you up.

Depends on a great many variables.

Jumper in a tight suit with a large (working) PC, a large main and a bag lock caused by a knot over the top of the bag? Will probably stand you up.

Jumper with a uncocked PC that is just barely tugging on a small canopy in a small bag? Probably will _not_ stand you up. This sort of mal may not even release the riser covers, which means you may not be able to cut it away.


sky-pimp  (C 104872)

Jan 8, 2006, 1:41 AM
Post #15 of 45 (2376 views)
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Re: [billvon] Would a bag lock stand you up ?? [In reply to] Can't Post

?Unsure
Jumper with a uncocked PC that is just barely tugging on a small canopy in a small bag? Probably will _not_ stand you up. This sort of mal may not even release the riser covers, which means you may not be able to cut it away.
Quote:

So what would you do it the riser covers did not release on cutaway ?? (apart from shit ya self)





Premier skydiverek  (C 41769)

Jan 8, 2006, 3:29 AM
Post #16 of 45 (2359 views)
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Re: [mark] Would a bag lock stand you up ?? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Okay, I watched the RWS video pilotdave pointed to, and I see that a baglock does not generate as much drag as I thought it did. I was wrong.

The airspeed was NOT 120 mph (it was hop-n-pop). Different story then.


(This post was edited by skydiverek on Jan 8, 2006, 3:30 AM)


Andy_Copland  (A 105852)

Jan 8, 2006, 4:22 AM
Post #17 of 45 (2350 views)
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Re: [sky-pimp] Would a bag lock stand you up ?? [In reply to] Can't Post

I have a video of a bag lock standing someone up. I'll send you the link when skydivingmovies is back up.


rushmc  (No License)

Jan 8, 2006, 5:25 AM
Post #18 of 45 (2332 views)
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Re: [mark] Would a bag lock stand you up ?? [In reply to] Can't Post

thank you for the apology but no isult was taken. Had I not experienced one I believe I would have agreed with youSmile


riggerrob  (D 14840)

Jan 8, 2006, 7:53 AM
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Re: [billvon] Would a bag lock stand you up ?? [In reply to] Can't Post

My first bag lock (Cruisielite and 36" pilot chute) did not stand me up.

My second bag lock did stand me up, but most of its drag was provided by a fully-inflated tandem drogue.


labrys  (D 29848)

Jan 8, 2006, 7:59 AM
Post #20 of 45 (2296 views)
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Re: [billvon] Would a bag lock stand you up ?? [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
Jumper with a uncocked PC that is just barely tugging on a small canopy in a small bag? Probably will _not_ stand you up. This sort of mal may not even release the riser covers, which means you may not be able to cut it away.

What would you do in that situation? Spend time trying to pull the risers free or just deploy the reserve and hope for the best?


JohnMitchell  (D 6462)

Jan 8, 2006, 9:58 AM
Post #21 of 45 (2275 views)
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Re: [skydiverek] Would a bag lock stand you up ?? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
Okay, I watched the RWS video pilotdave pointed to, and I see that a baglock does not generate as much drag as I thought it did. I was wrong.

The airspeed was NOT 120 mph (it was hop-n-pop). Different story then.
Since baglock forces and body stability are both dependent on airspeed, wouldn't the balance of forces be the same?


ZigZagMarquis  (D License)

Jan 8, 2006, 10:17 AM
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Re: [sky-pimp] Would a bag lock stand you up ?? [In reply to] Can't Post

I was taught early on in my skydiving career to never try to stand-up a bag-lock...
Wink

Tongue


Premier skydiverek  (C 41769)

Jan 8, 2006, 11:27 AM
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Re: [JohnMitchell] Would a bag lock stand you up ?? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Since baglock forces and body stability are both dependent on airspeed, wouldn't the balance of forces be the same?

You might be right...


Premier billvon  (D 16479)
Moderator
Jan 8, 2006, 2:35 PM
Post #24 of 45 (2206 views)
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Re: [sky-pimp] Would a bag lock stand you up ?? [In reply to] Can't Post

>So what would you do it the riser covers did not release on cutaway ??

Try twice to clear it, then open the reserve. Similar to any other horseshoe.

I watched this happen to John Eagle one day at Eloy. Uncocked PC, pulled the pin but did not have sufficient drag to cause deployment or to release the risers when he pulled the cutaway handle. He deployed the reserve; the reserve PC fouled in the trailing main. He grabbed the freebag, tossed it into the wind, and it deployed normally.


divnswoop  (D 18276)

Jan 8, 2006, 4:53 PM
Post #25 of 45 (2161 views)
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Re: [tr027] Would a bag lock stand you up ?? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
of course not.

Really? Crazy I've seen video of 3 and witnessed one over my head and in all 4 cases the jumper was closer to vertical than horizontal....

...But I've only seen 4 bag locks so..........


(This post was edited by divnswoop on Jan 8, 2006, 4:56 PM)


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