Forums: Skydiving: Safety and Training:
The "45 degree rule" for exit separation DOES NOT WORK

 

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Premier LouDiamond  (D 25931)
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Jan 2, 2006, 7:21 PM
Post #76 of 364 (2572 views)
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Re: [tr027] The "45 degree rule" for exit separation DOES NOT WORK [In reply to] Can't Post

It amazes me still to this day at the blatent ignorance and perpetuation of the 45 degree myth. I can fully appreciate that some may have never been exposed to anything other than the myth or may be new to the sport. However it's the remaining people who refuse to see the error in the 45 degree rule that boggle my mind. I have come to the conclusion that for some, it is like trying to teach a hog to read a wristwatch.


sky-pimp  (C 104872)

Jan 3, 2006, 5:33 AM
Post #77 of 364 (2533 views)
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Re: [LouDiamond] The "45 degree rule" for exit separation DOES NOT WORK [In reply to] Can't Post

Personally i never realized the things that have been covered in this thread (the 45d issue) .
When i was learning (and i still am) i was told both the 45d angle and a calculation method . .
to be honest i see the 45d method used a lot and have been told to use that when i have asked the jump master ' how many seconds seperation do you want ' ....... this forum is such a valuble place to chat ,, i really think that a problem with these sort of issues , for newbys is that once they have there A licence it is very easy to forget the very simple safty rules ...
here is a good example that i think this thread is relavant too .... there is a guy infront of me and one behind, we are all solo jumpers and agreed on the ground to pull at 4k .... yet when back down on the ground after the jump , the guy who got out behind me said he did not pull till 3k because he wanted to be through some cloud before he opened ......i was in that cloud somewhere with an open canopy at 3.5k . . i also know we were told to use the 45d seperation for exit .... emmmmm....i'll not be getting out in front of that guy again ShockedShockedShocked





brianemerson  (A 46955)

Jan 3, 2006, 5:40 AM
Post #78 of 364 (2531 views)
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Re: [tr027] The "45 degree rule" for exit separation DOES NOT WORK [In reply to] Can't Post

I was at perris a couple of weeks ago and on their waiver it said to use the 45 degree rule and give at least 10 seconds delay between groups.


kallend  (D 23151)

Jan 3, 2006, 7:49 AM
Post #79 of 364 (2515 views)
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Re: [brianemerson] The "45 degree rule" for exit separation DOES NOT WORK [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
I was at perris a couple of weeks ago and on their waiver it said to use the 45 degree rule and give at least 10 seconds delay between groups.

Counting the fleas on my cat AND leaving 10 seconds delay would work just as well.


azureriders  (D 28830)

Jan 3, 2006, 9:04 AM
Post #80 of 364 (2498 views)
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Re: [kallend] The "45 degree rule" for exit separation DOES NOT WORK [In reply to] Can't Post

Could the 45d rule be called the visual rule instead? What I am asking is, do any of you more experieced guys ever get to the door, count for separation based on ground speed, then look at the last group falling away and go "no way we are going that fast, they are still right there" or vice versa. If you can train your eyes to see separation (not 45d) maybe the visual rule would work.

But IMO, anyone trusting a visual rule of any kind, could also consider leaving the altimeter at home. After all you already have your internal clock and your ability to stare at the groundCrazy

That is not to say that I dont believe skills such as visual recognition are not valuable and good back ups.


AFFI  (D 25538)

Jan 3, 2006, 9:27 AM
Post #81 of 364 (2511 views)
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Re: [kallend] The "45 degree rule" for exit separation DOES NOT WORK [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Counting the fleas on my cat AND leaving 10 seconds delay would work just as well.

So correct, just Fill in the Bank AND 10 seconds - this comment made me think...
Not everyone, but the average person will look for the 45 degrees or what they perceive to be 45 degrees then start their climb out and go. The combination of their mental calculations and climb out will quite usually take enough time to create adequate separation no? Havent seen someone at the door with a laser guided GPS enables protractor and a stopwatch yet


Premier billvon  (D 16479)
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Jan 3, 2006, 9:29 AM
Post #82 of 364 (2511 views)
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Re: [azureriders] The "45 degree rule" for exit separation DOES NOT WORK [In reply to] Can't Post

>do any of you more experieced guys ever get to the door, count for
>separation based on ground speed, then look at the last group
>falling away and go "no way we are going that fast, they are still right
>there" or vice versa.

No. Seeing what sort of separation they have 10 seconds after exit tells you nothing about what sort of separation they will have at opening time. Instead, I get in the door, start counting, and look DOWN - because that's where we're going. That way if there's a cloud, or other air traffic, or a high canopy, I will see it.

>If you can train your eyes to see separation (not 45d) maybe the
>visual rule would work.

Nope. It doesn't tell you what your separation will be later.


Premier billvon  (D 16479)
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Jan 3, 2006, 9:32 AM
Post #83 of 364 (2510 views)
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Re: [AFFI] The "45 degree rule" for exit separation DOES NOT WORK [In reply to] Can't Post

>but the average person will look for the 45 degrees or what they
> perceive to be 45 degrees then start their climb out and go. The
> combination of their mental calculations and climb out will quite
> usually take enough time to create adequate separation no?

Yep, and that's why often the 45 degree rule accidentally creates enough separation. It's like telling someone "always have lunch after connecting the jumper cables but before trying to start the other car." It doesn't matter a bit that you had a salami sandwich, but it does give the battery time to charge.

The drawback is that takes their eyes away from where they SHOULD be, and that is pointed down looking for traffic/high canopies/clouds.


CrazyL  (D 17699)

Jan 3, 2006, 2:18 PM
Post #84 of 364 (2474 views)
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Re: [billvon] The "45 degree rule" for exit separation DOES NOT WORK [In reply to] Can't Post

Bill, do skydivers accidentaly get enough separation due to the 45 degree rule? The past few years the 45 degree thing and 8-10 sec. has been the most talked term involving separation around me. I don't want to be misled and/or mislead others. Your responses are welcome with much respect.


Premier billvon  (D 16479)
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Jan 3, 2006, 2:23 PM
Post #85 of 364 (2472 views)
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Re: [CrazyL] The "45 degree rule" for exit separation DOES NOT WORK [In reply to] Can't Post

>Bill, do skydivers accidentaly get enough separation due to the 45 degree rule?

Some probably do waste enough time looking at the group behind them to give them safe separation. The problem is:

1) If they can actually judge 45 degrees, they will either never go or go immediately, and that's no good

2) What the group behind them looks like has no bearing on how much separation they will get.

Which is why counting the fleas on Kallend's dog works about as well. If you can really find ten fleas, then you've waited long enough.

If they really, really want to look at something, I recommend they look _under_ the plane. Why? Because it will show them traffic that might be a collision hazard, and lying down to look, then standing back up will probably waste enough time to give them safe separation. And you can even do this on a skyvan or CASA! It's also the only way to reliably check the spot/traffic on those aircraft.


CrazyL  (D 17699)

Jan 3, 2006, 2:38 PM
Post #86 of 364 (2466 views)
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Re: [billvon] The "45 degree rule" for exit separation DOES NOT WORK [In reply to] Can't Post

I'm hearing you. Sometimes i wonder what the hell the jumper in the door is looking at. Is it just the group ahead of them or are they also being observant of airtraffic/canopy traffic etc.. I feel most comfy with an 'older, experienced skydiver' checking the spot. That also goes for the group leaving after me. Hey Kallend i'd like to borrow your dog! There are some jumpers who'd be better off counting fleas!hehehehe


NelKel  (D 25024)

Jan 3, 2006, 5:25 PM
Post #87 of 364 (2437 views)
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Re: [CrazyL] The "45 degree rule" for exit separation DOES NOT WORK [In reply to] Can't Post

 Sometimes i wonder what the hell the jumper in the door is looking at. Is it just the group ahead of them or are they also being observant of airtraffic/canopy traffic etc.. I feel most comfy with an 'older, experienced skydiver' checking the spot<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<


Do you realy have 5700 jumps and 14 yrs. in the sport?Wink


(This post was edited by NelKel on Jan 3, 2006, 5:26 PM)


lisamariewillbe  (A License)

Jan 3, 2006, 5:33 PM
Post #88 of 364 (2431 views)
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Re: [NelKel] The "45 degree rule" for exit separation DOES NOT WORK [In reply to] Can't Post

I dont care if I only have 51 jumps or 5100 jumps , I look before I leap, regardless who looked first ... it took about 28 jumps for me to start doing it but now I look everytime, I dont think for a second that anyone would be wise to just leap without looking and relay on my visual, but none the less I dont relay on anyone else's either... but regardless I assume that its best if everyone looks out the door before they jump ... right?


Scrumpot  (D License)

Jan 3, 2006, 5:43 PM
Post #89 of 364 (2429 views)
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Re: [tr027] The "45 degree rule" for exit separation DOES NOT WORK [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
I was making some jumps at Perris last week. When the winds picked up they advised everyone, using the loudspeaker of course, to use the 45 degree rule.
Yeah, LOL Wink I too have ragged on Billvon about that one before as well. About a year and a half ago, just AFTER he had done his "practical study" right there (setting up camera's at 45' angles and filming jumpers from both the Perris Otters), I think they actually PRINTED the 45' "rule" right on a manifest window rule displayed paper and then again even later too on a safety-day check-list. ...Crazy


(This post was edited by Scrumpot on Jan 3, 2006, 6:28 PM)


Scrumpot  (D License)

Jan 3, 2006, 5:47 PM
Post #90 of 364 (2427 views)
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Re: [lisamariewillbe] The "45 degree rule" for exit separation DOES NOT WORK [In reply to] Can't Post

Yeah, I remember what I think was probably one of your 1st times you decided that you WANTED to look for yourself. ...As I recall, you actually pushed somebody (hmmmm, who might that be Blush) back out of your way, and exclaimed rather loudly: "I can handle this"! Tongue ...Good on you girl! Cool Smile

-Grant


lisamariewillbe  (A License)

Jan 3, 2006, 5:53 PM
Post #91 of 364 (2423 views)
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Re: [Scrumpot] The "45 degree rule" for exit separation DOES NOT WORK [In reply to] Can't Post

hehehee that was funny though.... a bit long ... hmm theres a trend ....


Scrumpot  (D License)

Jan 3, 2006, 6:21 PM
Post #92 of 364 (2410 views)
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Re: [lisamariewillbe] The "45 degree rule" for exit separation DOES NOT WORK [In reply to] Can't Post

Just remember too, that it is not always either practical or practicable for ABSOLUTELY EVERYBODY, ie: each and every individual jumper to be "looking" and checking their spot(s) before they exit.

For example on an 8-9-10+ way out of an Otter, sometimes you HAVE TO rely on someone else in your group to have done that task. Sometimes it is the cameraman setting up in advance of your group, as he/she is the 1st one out ...taking up the camera step upon their climb-out 1st, behind the group that may have left in front of you too. If each and EVERY jumper in that group had to stop and look for themselves, then heck ...you'd never get any good RW put together out there. Sometimes you do have to trust somebody else in your group to have done the task appropriately for you in those cases.

I'll bet Billvon, a few weeks ago when he was last out on several 20+ ways (and being told all day: "go no-lift turbo!" Wink -I know you love to hear that, Bill AngelicTongue) didn't stop and look each and every time BEFORE he left in that situation either. Again, sometimes that is just not practicable.

But in knowing (and practicing) in which situations it is, and in understanding (even being a part) of those, and then WHAT YOU ARE LOOKING AT (ie: read 45' rule ...???Crazy) in this context, and in application with this thread is what is important.

Seems you are learning, GF. - - -Cool

-Grant


(This post was edited by Scrumpot on Jan 3, 2006, 6:23 PM)


lisamariewillbe  (A License)

Jan 3, 2006, 6:31 PM
Post #93 of 364 (2401 views)
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Re: [Scrumpot] The "45 degree rule" for exit separation DOES NOT WORK [In reply to] Can't Post

well when I get to the level where im past 3 ways or less then I think my style will change for now Im scared shitless and want to see... plus it looks really cool to kneel at the door and just down...

I dont think Ill ever get to the level where I will allow myself on a big-way... Id prefer not to expose to many people to me in the air Sly


CrazyL  (D 17699)

Jan 3, 2006, 6:54 PM
Post #94 of 364 (2394 views)
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Re: [NelKel] The "45 degree rule" for exit separation DOES NOT WORK [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Do you realy have 5700 jumps and 14 yrs. in the sport?Wink
NelKel you ask this on another thread, the answer is there and is still the same. Do you have something to add to this thread? Are you looking for some other type of argument?


Premier Remster  (C License)

Jan 4, 2006, 7:19 AM
Post #95 of 364 (2360 views)
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Re: [CrazyL] The "45 degree rule" for exit separation DOES NOT WORK [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
Do you realy have 5700 jumps and 14 yrs. in the sport?Wink
NelKel you ask this on another thread, the answer is there and is still the same. Do you have something to add to this thread? Are you looking for some other type of argument?

Yeah. Crazy Larry doesnt really exist.

Nor did his scratch and sniff camera helmet....


azureriders  (D 28830)

Jan 4, 2006, 8:37 PM
Post #96 of 364 (2315 views)
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Re: [billvon] The "45 degree rule" for exit separation DOES NOT WORK [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
No. Seeing what sort of separation they have 10 seconds after exit tells you nothing about what sort of separation they will have at opening time

Duh, think stupid think..........oh excuse me, talking to myself again.

I got it, and would have got it earlier if I would have thought about it.


CrazyL  (D 17699)

Jan 4, 2006, 10:57 PM
Post #97 of 364 (2300 views)
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Re: [Remster] The "45 degree rule" for exit separation DOES NOT WORK [In reply to] Can't Post

Hehehehehe


AFFI  (D 25538)

Oct 29, 2006, 1:39 PM
Post #98 of 364 (2161 views)
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Re: [CrazyL] The "45 degree rule" for exit separation DOES NOT WORK [In reply to] Can't Post

Lots of great information about the 45 degree rule here...


kallend  (D 23151)

Oct 29, 2006, 6:41 PM
Post #99 of 364 (2122 views)
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Re: [AFFI] The "45 degree rule" for exit separation DOES NOT WORK [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Lots of great information about the 45 degree rule here...

Let's call it the "45 Degree Myth" instead.


phoenixlpr  (D 3049)

Oct 29, 2006, 8:30 PM
Post #100 of 364 (2109 views)
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Re: [kallend] The "45 degree rule" for exit separation DOES NOT WORK [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Let's call it the "45 Degree Myth" instead.

So how about the "45 Degree Myth" ? Pirate

Satisfied?


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