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DZ Safety and how to recognize possible safety Problems.

 

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RayLosli

Dec 7, 2005, 12:11 AM
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DZ Safety and how to recognize possible safety Problems. Can't Post

OK, What is the most Un-Safe DZ ( but not name publicly ) in a thread?
I would like this thread to stand for the Purpose of Teaching new skydive graduates Recognize REAL safety infractions. Not just the bending of a few BSR's.
That drawn out thread of Safety conscience dribble ( USPA and FAA reg violations ) I read and Posted in. Got me thinking of DZ's in the past that I had seen - Questionable ! ...Shocked DZ safety related behavior.
Now DON'T be shy. Post your Stories. I have heard some stories from lots of Skydivers with thousands of jumps and Years under there Belts. It would be entertaining to say the least. Plus a real learning experience for the new and up-coming jumpers.
No need to name (names) or Even the DZ. Just make accusations and Name the Infractions You think You Saw while skydiving there.
.
First off I will tell you I was pretty much raised @ the defunked DZ called Sheridan. Where I did my first few hundred jumps. That DZ kind of folded up under a BLACK Cloud of legal and USPA action. This story would Stand-Up to some of the best of them I saw and heard about there though. So here goes.
OK I was in the state of Lxxxxxxa in about 1995 or 96 and went to a little DZ called xxxxxxx xxxxx.
When I drove up to the little field with only a wooden shake with a few windows broken out. There was a Grass Runway and some wire fences to set off the rural setting of a typical weekend DZ operation.
So I did not think much when the Car drove-up about a half-hour later. Then a few guys piled out of it and threw a couple tandem Rigs on the ground with there personal Gear and threw it in the Shack. While that was going on a Cessna 182 came flying by then hooked back around and slipped-in and Parked.
I made Idle chit-chat with the usual ..."I am bla-bla. I am from bum-fuck." and glad to meet ya. and I manifested up on a Load with the Tandems and a couple of Fun jumpers that showed up also.
While I was on some loads there was a Couple AFF's up on jump Run. When all was on the ground and I noticed that the JM's were wearing street-cloths while they were doing a AFF Level-1 or 2.
After I got back down from a load and was Packing the 1st thing that caught my eye that day was a Jumper that was coming on final on a used NOVA he picked up for 90-$. He was just getting ready to cross over the Barbed-Wire fence. When he Front-Risered that thing and it Folded up and He Crumpled up and was moaning from a deep ditch behind the wire Fence. A couple people ran over and carried him out. So everything looked under control and I went up on another load with some fun jumpers.
When I landed my Canopy and was walking back to the Shake. There was a Fist-Fight just ending and somebody just got thrown out the front window of the Shake.
Well It usually takes some really bizarre behavior to get me worried. So I just walked over and packed then I got back on another Load and Jumped like nothing ever happened.
The day was starting to wind down and the few tandems and AFF students left. So I Paid my Tab and started Talking with the Staff there.
They Whipped out a couple bottles of Champlain and started passing the bottles till gone. while Splitting the Cash-$ up between them and throwing all the Gear back into the trunk of the car.
In the conversation and bull-shit skydive stories.I found out that None of them had any USPA Ratings for AFF. Which explained the AFF Dives with street cloths & no jump suites. I also really doubt that any had Current Tandem ratings or ever had them at all.
So that ends One of Many fun Skydiving days I had in my life. @ xxxxxxx xxxx in the state of Lxxxxxxa and Names of Tandem masters and AFF-JM's that I can not mention.
...The End
.


mjosparky  (D 5476)

Dec 7, 2005, 12:22 AM
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This is probably better suited for Speakers Corner.

Sparky


velocity-96  (D License)

Dec 7, 2005, 1:03 AM
Post #3 of 34 (2555 views)
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whats up shotgun ray, yea ive been to one dz that got my attention. i was on a 182 at a small cessna dz in the stcks. we were waiting all day for the sky to clear. when it finay did the winds picked up quite a bit, 10-14 with 20 mph gusts. not to mention it was getting dark. i got on the load anyway needing my fix after waiting 6 hours, probably not a good idea. so there i was myself and 3 other guys climbing to altitude when i realize one of the jumpers was a student in the static line progression the other was the instructor. when we reached 10,000 ft the pilot asked if we still wanted to jump? i said i felt comfortable jumping having a good amount of night jumps and a digital altimeter with a night light. i asked to go first since i would be pulling lower than the student on his 30 sec delay. when i landed the winds were strong and it was now dark. i watched the student land out of concern when i didnt see his instructor in the air. he had a good landing all things considered. we walked back to find the 182 parking and the other 2 jumpers getting out of the plane. so i asked why they didnt jump. his answer was, " it was too sketchy and dark, i only have 150 jumps and havent done a night jump so i rode the plane down". i was shocked! i couldnt believe the whole scenario. then i found out that this dz had round reserves in the student gear!!!

this sl.i put his student out in these conditions but thought it was too dangerous for himself!! so he abandoned him!
very sad, i still cant believe it!


RayLosli

Dec 7, 2005, 8:14 AM
Post #4 of 34 (2414 views)
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vel-96:
"this sl.i put his student out in these conditions but thought it was too dangerous for himself!! so he abandoned him!
very sad, i still cant believe it
! "
...

WuuuuHu Ha HA ..Wow, I can believe it though. That sounds like a Possible DZ Safety Problem For Sure.
The SL student was OK though and that is Good.

Do You Think Anyone @ the DZ you (did not mention ) realized there was a Possible ADZ Safety issue ?
Or do you think you were the only one there who Questioned there practices that evening ?
.
Or do you think they were all in just Skydiving in ( Ignorant Bliss ) just a DZ out there Skydiving and having Fun and doing all the jumps they Can Get ?
.


tso-d_chris

Dec 7, 2005, 8:22 AM
Post #5 of 34 (2414 views)
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Check out this thread.


councilman24  (D 8631)

Dec 7, 2005, 11:42 AM
Post #6 of 34 (2336 views)
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Re: [RayLosli] DZ Safety and how to recognize possible safety Problems. [In reply to] Can't Post

A short lived DZ used para commanders for first S/L jumps. Mid 80's. The entire student guidance for canopy control was a guy standing on the ground holding up a 4 foot piece of plywood with a red arrow painted on the brown backgound and yelling, almost without exception "ALL THE WAY AROUND". No matter what the student really needed to do. BTW the plywood was usually tilted so the student couldn't see it even if it was big enough. Ultimate fate, student landed in 150' tree, broke back, and closed DZ. Also the pilot flew all the way to altitude with the stall horn blaring.Mad

Another winner was actually the aircraft owner, not the DZ. In 1" dymo lettering (never knew it came that big) on the inside of the jump door was "IF YOU DIE ON THIS JUMP ARE YOU READY TO MEET YOU MAKER" It when on from there and covered the inside of the door. 182 used for students.Wink BTW the usual jumpmaster would say "If you screw up and don't protect your ripcords (belly warts) your going to die. I'm not cause I'm going to jump out past you, but your going to die!"

These are all old stories. New ones are even scarier.


JohnRich  (D License)

Dec 7, 2005, 11:43 AM
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In reply to:
then i found out that this dz had round reserves in the student gear!!!

Oh my god! That's the final straw! How dare they risk their student's lives with something so dangerous!


velocity-96  (D License)

Dec 7, 2005, 6:43 PM
Post #8 of 34 (2239 views)
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no, nobody thought anything was odd about that load. or at least nobody seemed to be talking about it. theres a good chance no one noticed. the landing area is a ways from the hanger. the dzo did know the conditions though. he was manifesting!
ive been there since. its shaped up quite a bit. square resereves now for students, and cypress aads. also that sli was fired not too long after this happened for un related reasons.


NickDG  (D 8904)

Dec 7, 2005, 9:31 PM
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I was working with a newish and young AFF JM who went up with a level five student at a particular DZ where the LZ is a few miles from the airport. The winds picked up to the point of a no-go situation for the student so I picked up the radio and called them back down. I also asked the pilot to make sure the JM (being new and all) remembered to turn off the student's FXC AAD.

I knew it was the first time this particular student rode down in the plane and he'd be disappointed so I walked out to the plane to meet them and give him the "live to fly another day" speech. They taxied up and when the pilot opened the door of the Cessna, lo and behold, no Jumpmaster.

"Wheres your Jumpmaster," I asked.

"He jumped," the student answered.

I was really trying to hid my anger, but the student picked up on it.

"It's cool Nick," the student offered, "he asked if I minded and I said it was all right with me."

I was boiling over now (but hiding it from the student) and needless to say I was ready to tell that jumpmaster to pack his nylon and clear the fuck out. I calmed down a bit by the time he got back and just "schooled" him for a half hour behind the hangar. He admitted to being selfish and taking a chance nothing would happen on the way down. "But, think man," I said, "you left him sitting there with a non-jumping pilot and his freaking AAD turned off!"

That JM is now a well respected AFF Instructor in Southern California and I know when ever he has to bring a student down he sees me jumping up and down and screaming at him . . .

velocity-96, if the winds were as high as you say I'm glad I wasn't there to see what you saw. Right now I'd be sitting on death row with Tookie Williams . . .

NickD Smile
BASE 194


velocity-96  (D License)

Dec 7, 2005, 10:21 PM
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Re: [NickDG] DZ Safety and how to recognize possible safety Problems. [In reply to] Can't Post

thanks for that story nick, i being a new affi myself need to hear things like that.
i also like the fact that, yes that guy fucked up big time, however he learned his lesson and has since become a good affi.


RayLosli

Dec 7, 2005, 10:37 PM
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Re: [JohnRich] DZ Safety and how to recognize possible safety Problems. [In reply to] Can't Post

johnRich
Oh my god! That's the final straw! How dare they risk their student's lives with something so dangerous!
,,,,,,,,,,

Ya but don't forget you were Raised on Rounds with a Round Reserve. They were the Standard of Safety.....Wink
I came into skydiving when Squares were becoming the accepted norm of Safety. with Round reserves as the Standard practice for students.
Velosity96, came in when it was Square on Square as the standard of Safety for learning students.
You know how to survive on a Round.& I was taught to handle a Round and have had a few Round Reserve rides.
today in 2005 Rounds are never even taught or mentioned. Basically it the only the accepted Norm. for pilot bail-out Rigs. (don't you know ?) Today in Skydiving Round Canopy's are Black Death........Shocked
You would not believe all the people that I run into in BASE who want to do water jumps with a Round in the summer.but they don't know how to Pack it up. Once you give them the low down and show them once to Pack it. ( all of 15 minutes ) there off and Jumping & Luving them.
.


velocity-96  (D License)

Dec 8, 2005, 12:53 PM
Post #12 of 34 (2098 views)
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ray i think he ment the last straw was the high winds with round reserves, noy just having rounds in the student gear. look at his profile, im sure he has many round jumps. they are fine but todays modern dz's do not spot the a/c on jump run for people jumping rounds, otherwise it would take 2-3 passes to get an otter load out.
peace


sundevil777  (D License)

Dec 8, 2005, 2:10 PM
Post #13 of 34 (2073 views)
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Re: [velocity-96] DZ Safety and how to recognize possible safety Problems. [In reply to] Can't Post

Putting out students in high winds on round reserves: I agree it is a really bad idea, but I don't know that the USPA BSRs were any different for the wind limits back when every student used a round reserve - does anybody know for sure? I also don't remember experienced jumpers considering a reserve ride when deciding if it was too windy.

What is really amazing to me about your story is that the 'instructors' actually admitted that they didn't have ratings! You have to be really stupid to admit that to a stranger.


wmw999  (D 6296)

Dec 8, 2005, 2:23 PM
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Nope, they weren't any different. But in those days they were the outside edge of smart. We didn't push them ever (well, except in West Texas I'm told, where the minimum wind was about 15mph). We drilled PLFs backwards even more than forwards.

Remember that in those days the mains weren't significantly faster than the reserves. We threw wind drift indicators, and spotted carefully. It's also a lot easier to spot when you're in a 182 at 3200'.

Wendy W.


velocity-96  (D License)

Dec 8, 2005, 9:43 PM
Post #15 of 34 (2026 views)
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Re: [wmw999] DZ Safety and how to recognize possible safety Problems. [In reply to] Can't Post

no shit, i cant believe the bsr was the same. thats nuts. if i was jumping a round my cutoff would be 10 mph. actually i did learn on round reserves.
thtanks for the info, kinda scarry though.


MooChooser  (D 105639)

Dec 9, 2005, 2:40 AM
Post #16 of 34 (2012 views)
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Re: [velocity-96] DZ Safety and how to recognize possible safety Problems. [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
Oh my god! That's the final straw! How dare they risk their student's lives with something so dangerous!

Haha, yea.
My first few sl rigs had round reserves.


wmw999  (D 6296)

Dec 9, 2005, 8:21 AM
Post #17 of 34 (1983 views)
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Quote:
if i was jumping a round my cutoff would be 10 mph
Most likely if you were jumping a round you'd've been like everyone else, jumping whatever didn't look too awful (which was generally getting up around 18).Crazy

One thing was that turbulence wasn't as feared then as it is now.

Wendy W.


NickDG  (D 8904)

Dec 9, 2005, 9:10 AM
Post #18 of 34 (1973 views)
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While a student couldn't and shouldn't, we jumped round mains, and occasionally round reserves in high winds. How do you think the hook turn was invented? I did them with my Piglet all the time . . .

NickD Smile
BASE 194


crwpj  (D 12852)

Dec 9, 2005, 10:17 AM
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Quote:
I also don't remember experienced jumpers considering a reserve ride when deciding if it was too windy.
i do. it was standard policy at both DZs that i jumped at in the late eighties and early nineties that you needed a square reserve beyond a certain wind speed on the ground. most experienced jumpers i knew at the time with round reserves had a cutoff that was below DZ policy.
p.j.


jlmiracle  (D License)

Dec 9, 2005, 1:57 PM
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In reply to:
In reply to:
then i found out that this dz had round reserves in the student gear!!!

Oh my god! That's the final straw! How dare they risk their student's lives with something so dangerous!

I know John, I can't believe I'm alive, I was trained under student gear that had round reserves. I should probably quit huh.

j


Andy9o8  (D License)

Dec 9, 2005, 4:31 PM
Post #21 of 34 (1896 views)
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In reply to:
In reply to:
In reply to:
then i found out that this dz had round reserves in the student gear!!!

Oh my god! That's the final straw! How dare they risk their student's lives with something so dangerous!

I know John, I can't believe I'm alive, I was trained under student gear that had round reserves. I should probably quit huh.

j

LOL, yeah, really. I guess round reserves didn't really save my life - twice.

Hey, wait a minute...if I'm a ghost, then whose kids are those who've been calling me Dad??Crazy


RayLosli

Dec 9, 2005, 10:26 PM
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Wow, Most of the Posts on this Thread are from Skydivers who have way over twice as many years in Skydiving as myself.
Councilman, Johnrich, Nickdg, sundevil, wendy, crwpj, andy908. I got to know the truth. As Students learning to skydive.
I got to know the truth about something. Did you -Feel Safe ? Did you feel mistreated as Students ?
Some of you guys/gals, 20-30-40 years. Looking back with what you know now and Today in 2005 with the BIG advantages of all the New Gear and HUGE Advances made in Training Students ?
Did you feel -Maybe- you Didn't have it so good as a Student getting trained-up and learning to Skydive back then ?
What did you do when NOT getting the Personal Attention. You as a new Student Deserved ?
Maybe you complained about the wind conditions. You might have been put-out-on as a students under Rounds ? Or maybe.
As a Student. Did you whine and cry when you were. Told to Pack-Up the Rig you just finished Jumping ? -Even Though- you might not have been as Confident in your skills as a new Student Skydiver ?
Did you Guys ever experience or Fear as Students Mechanical problems with a Plane. Or experience Problems on the Runway or Maybe even in the Air ?
.
Because From the way you guys talk. I Find it REALLY Hard to believe that Student Skydiving was all that FUN and Sure as hell could not have been safe being a Student Skydiver back then....Laugh
You must of had a lot of Complaining to do to ? To the DZ owners or each other. I know you had no DZ.com to voice all your Safety concerns. So maybe you just reported all your Safety Concerns as Students to the FAA or the USPA when you got Pissed-Off with poor safety coditions as a student ?
.


Andy9o8  (D License)

Dec 10, 2005, 1:31 PM
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Re: [RayLosli] DZ Safety and how to recognize possible safety Problems. [In reply to] Can't Post

It's not always easy to figure out what the hell you're trying to say, but I'll give it a whirl.
Are you trying to say that Back In The Day dropzones, equipment & student programs were less safe than they are today? Yes, I'd agree with that, at least to an extent. So what? That was then; this is now. Today, just as in yesteryear, some are more safe, some are a bit less safe, but there is a general "standard" of safety today that can be seen & understood by a knowledgeable person. The fact that jumping as a student when we were noobs was less safe than it is today doesn't in any way excuse any DZ today which treats its student in an unsafe way. Yeah, as a matter of fact, at my first DZ, 30 years ago, we had an asshole DZO who treated novice jumpers shitty for having the nerve to do stuff like asking to use the rental gear with the AAD's and the RSLs when he didn't feel like giving it to them, or choosing to ride the plane back down instead of jumping at 1,700 ft when the clouds closed in on the way up. So what? Because he was a fucker back then, that means it's OK for a DZO to be a fucker to students now? Bullshit.
By the way, that same middle-sized DZ had 4 fatalities in 2 years, including 1 novice jumper who in my opinion went in because he wasn't supervised adequately. That DZ is no longer in business, and the DZ which sort of "replaced" it is a damn fine DZ run by great people.

I've read your posts in this thread, and also read the way you just raged and raged at those criticizing "that other DZ" in the related thread (This one: http://www.dropzone.com/...post=1868070#1868070)
I have to tell you, I find your agenda puzzling.


(This post was edited by Andy9o8 on Dec 10, 2005, 1:38 PM)


RayLosli

Dec 10, 2005, 4:51 PM
Post #24 of 34 (1789 views)
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andy:
It's not always easy to figure out what the hell you're trying to say, but I'll give it a whirl.
Are you trying to say that Back In The Day dropzones, equipment & student programs were less safe than they are today?
The fact that jumping as a student when we were noobs was less safe than it is today doesn't in any way excuse any DZ today which treats its student in an unsafe way
.
-
You might have been a, Noobs. but as a student. I know I was a Bigger noob than you for sure.
I know that gear and training have progressed. Things might have been a little less safe for you (back in the day) -BUT- I got a funny feeling that you like others. even though unhappy at times with your DZO. Did more Jumping. Than Whining and Crying.
I'm not saying it's OK for a DZO to walk on it's Students. I know this is Bad. I am all for students safety.
.
.
andy:
"we had an asshole DZO who treated novice jumpers shitty ."
-
Then what are you to do ? How did you handle it ? Did you call everyone you know in the Skydive community and tell them your DZO sucked-ass ? Did you call the FAA and tell them your problems ?
Or maybe. Did you Grab any Rig you could get your hands on. Pack and Jump, then Pack and Jump, Pack and Jump again. Every chance you had till something better came along.? Or Did you Quit or temporarily give up Skydiving ?
.
.

andy;
I've read your posts in this thread, and also read the way you just raged and raged at those criticizing "that other DZ" in the related thread (This one: http://www.dropzone.com/...post=1868070#1868070)
I have to tell you, I find your agenda puzzling
.
-
Yes I would say it bothered me what was being said in that last thread. Even though I am in favor for proper safety for Students.
It is True. I did -RAG- on them for pushing there homeDZ as a messed-up Safety hazard in public. I just have a hard time seeing it on there level. I also have a hard time seeing That there DZ is as bad as they talked about it being.
I would say that I was more upset with them crucifying there home DZ in Public. Than there act of self-preservation and What to do about it.
I am about being safe but I guess everyone has a different threshold inside him. I guess I am just weird and F##ked-up because I never was bothered by any DZ's business practices. When I was a student and learning to skydive. I was there for the same reason I am at any DZ today. To Skydive. Any DZ. What ever plane is going-up. I am getting on it To Skydive.
.
.
andy:
...By the way, that same middle-sized DZ had 4 fatalities in 2 years, including 1 novice jumper who in my opinion went in because he wasn't supervised adequately. That DZ is no longer in business, and the DZ which sort of "replaced" it is a damn fine DZ run by great people.
-
That's kind of the way I am thinking. The example you Quote for that DZ's safety record is BAD.
There is always going to be different levels of DZ quality out there. It's free-enterprise out there. If you can Scrounge up a piece of aircraft, some gear & a place to park it all. You got a DZ started.
Every DZ owner has a different (view) of What his DZ standards will be. I have always felt that a DZ is more a reflection of the owner that it's Jumpers by far.
Like your statement says. The DZ was shit and was gone & out of Business. Then it was replaced by a damn fine DZ run by great people.
If this DZ that is being crucified publicly for not taking care of it's students is that Bad. Then It to will be. Out of Business. then replaced. ( I have always felt ) Things like that have a way of taking care of themselves.
The way those students in the other thread are doing it publicly. May be there way to solve there issues. For me it's Not and that is just a personal issue that I have.
Is Student training all about making the Student Skydiver safe ? YES.
Is it for the Student Skydiver to decide what is safe for his/her. to become a Skydiving ? YES.
Is it all about Making Every Student Skydiver that walks through the DZO's doors Happy ? NO
.
.
Basically I guess, what I am trying to say is . If you want to learn to Skydive. I feel you should Pack it up. Get on the Plane and Jump. Then Pack It Up and Do it again.
If you want to CRY about your HomeDZ. Don't crucify them in public. Go Jump Somewhere Else. Give them your Money and Time.
Things Will take care of themselves and change will be made by doing just that one single action.
.


crwpj  (D 12852)

Dec 10, 2005, 5:36 PM
Post #25 of 34 (1782 views)
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Re: [RayLosli] DZ Safety and how to recognize possible safety Problems. [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
Don't crucify them in public

you mean like your're doing?

Quote:
The way those students in the other thread are doing it publicly. May be there way to solve there issues. For me it's Not and that is just a personal issue that I have

if only there were some way these students could get the MESSAGE about this PERSONAL issue you have. hmm,... hmm,...
oh well, i can't think of a thing. guess i'll go read something about safety. anyone know what that forum is called?


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