Forums: Skydiving: Safety and Training:
Opinions wanted about a 2-step RSL procedure

 

First page Previous page 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 Next page Last page  View All

borg2050  (B License)

Nov 13, 2005, 6:22 PM
Post #1 of 207 (2555 views)
Shortcut
Opinions wanted about a 2-step RSL procedure Can't Post

I have read some of the discussions (arguments) about RSLs and would like a few opinions from both sides about this.

QUESTION:
Would it make more sense to leave the RSL disconnected (throughout freefall) until under canopy than to have it connected the entire time?

I am thinking that this may prevent a high-altitude main / reserve entanglement, while preventing accidental death from a low cutaway due to: a canopy collision, canopy pilot-induced line twists (low altitude), etc...

I always pull at 5,000 ft--so the RSL wouldn't make much sense, unless I had a low-altitude canopy collision.


Hooknswoop  (D License)

Nov 13, 2005, 6:36 PM
Post #2 of 207 (2521 views)
Shortcut
Re: [borg2050] Opinions wanted about a 2-step RSL procedure [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
Would it make more sense to leave the RSL disconnected (throughout freefall) until under canopy than to have it connected the entire time?

Connecting it after you have a good canopy is silly. If you are going to jump an RSL, leave it connected.

Derek


Premier PhreeZone  (D License)
Moderator
Nov 13, 2005, 7:28 PM
Post #3 of 207 (2495 views)
Shortcut
Re: [borg2050] Opinions wanted about a 2-step RSL procedure [In reply to] Can't Post

You pull at 5000 now, what about in 100 jumps where you are pulling at 3000? Eventually you'll get bored of being the last one out on solos and you'll start pulling lower and lower to get in line with the group you are jumping with.

If you want an RSL - connect it, otherwise don't. Don't attempt to do rigging in freefall. Crazy


Ron

Nov 13, 2005, 7:52 PM
Post #4 of 207 (2477 views)
Shortcut
Re: [borg2050] Opinions wanted about a 2-step RSL procedure [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Would it make more sense to leave the RSL disconnected (throughout freefall) until under canopy than to have it connected the entire time?

No.

One of the benefits of an RSL is it can help you if you freeze in a malfunction.

While I don't like RSL's...It makes no sense to attach it or detach it if you have one.

Decide if you want an RSL based on its merits or faults and then use on, or don't.

Don't try in air rigging. All it does is remove your attention from what you are doing, or need to do.

BTW my take on an RSL is use it till you have your first mal where you pulled both handles...Then make a decision.


(This post was edited by Ron on Nov 13, 2005, 7:53 PM)


borg2050  (B License)

Nov 13, 2005, 8:05 PM
Post #5 of 207 (2470 views)
Shortcut
Re: [PhreeZone] Opinions wanted about a 2-step RSL procedure [In reply to] Can't Post

Okay...so its a bit goofy. At this moment it wouldn't bother me much to do it if it provides any advantage.

As of now, I enjoy the longer rides down. But in 100 jumps...who knows. If I decide to pull lower, then I would probably just use the RSL.


labrys  (D 29848)

Nov 13, 2005, 8:40 PM
Post #6 of 207 (2455 views)
Shortcut
Re: [borg2050] Opinions wanted about a 2-step RSL procedure [In reply to] Can't Post

Have you considered the advantage it might provide if you have any trouble cutting away and you lose a lot of altitude in the process?


nate_1979  (B 27889)

Nov 13, 2005, 8:48 PM
Post #7 of 207 (2452 views)
Shortcut
Re: [borg2050] Opinions wanted about a 2-step RSL procedure [In reply to] Can't Post

5,000ft, 3,000ft, ... You really have no idea what you are in for until you have your first malfunction.. I would keep it until you have one. Should you ever need it? No.. You shouldnt think that you need a device only when you pull lower (or ever), if you do think that than dont pull that low. I used one when I pulled at 5,000ft, and 3,000ft, and it wasnt until after my second malfunction that I decided to get rid of it (although I'm about to have skyhook)

Smile


mjosparky  (D 5476)

Nov 13, 2005, 9:32 PM
Post #8 of 207 (2433 views)
Shortcut
Re: [PhreeZone] Opinions wanted about a 2-step RSL procedure [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Don't attempt to do rigging in freefall

A statement that can be applied to many situations.SmileWink

Sparky


borg2050  (B License)

Nov 13, 2005, 10:11 PM
Post #9 of 207 (2422 views)
Shortcut
Re: [labrys] Opinions wanted about a 2-step RSL procedure [In reply to] Can't Post

Yes. Suppose the RSL were connected before the jump. If a situation were to come about where my cutaway was not immediately successful, the RSL would have two chutes out.

My thoughts about cutting away and altitude went something like this:

I may have to cut away my main if I have a malfunction upon deployment. The RSL is already disconnected, and I have plenty of altitude, so I have few worries.

If my main is good, then I can connect the RSL in case I have to cut away at a low altitude because of some freak accident.


mattjw916  (D License)

Nov 13, 2005, 10:22 PM
Post #10 of 207 (2417 views)
Shortcut
Re: [borg2050] Opinions wanted about a 2-step RSL procedure [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
If my main is good, then I can connect the RSL in case I have to cut away at a low altitude because of some freak accident.
..and then you end up having a canopy collision because you were dicking around with your rsl instead of paying attention under canopy. Don't reinvent the wheel, use it or don't. Perform your EPs properly and maintain your gear properly and you just reduced the chance of most cutaway problems to infinitesimal levels.


Premier billvon  (D 16479)
Moderator
Nov 13, 2005, 10:25 PM
Post #11 of 207 (2416 views)
Shortcut
Re: [borg2050] Opinions wanted about a 2-step RSL procedure [In reply to] Can't Post

>If my main is good, then I can connect the RSL . . .

. . . while flying through a crowded sky staring at your shoulder. And be sure to be careful not to pull on the RSL while attaching it; that can cause a two-out. And if it flips through a reserve riser, or the harness ring before you connect it? You've just given yourself a main that cannot be cut away, which might cause you trouble if you do need to cut away.

Also, the time that you need an RSL is the time you've been battling linetwists that _almost_ cleared twice, but the canopy is turning a bit, and you look down and realize you're at 1000 feet. That's the point you REALLY need an RSL to open that reserve, and that's also the time you're not going to have time to connect it.

I think some people have an unrealistic picture of how emergencies go in skydiving. You can go 100, 500, 1000 jumps with no problems. Then something happens - you lose power after takeoff, there's a canopy over the tail, you have a collision after opening, you have a spinner that makes it hard to get to your cutaway handle - and you have time to do one, maybe two things right. And they better be very simple things that you can do easily when you're disoriented, and they better be things you can do fast. And they should be well drilled because it will happen when it's least expected.

An RSL is a good backup for your emergency procedures. It helps you because it's always there, and will (usually) give you a reserve as your main departs. If you're worried about a riser breaking and causing a two-out, you could try:

-good gear maintenance
-type-8 risers (stronger, better leverage for the 3-ring system)
-a Collins lanyard (prevents a single riser scenario)
-disconnecting the RSL if it really worries you (not recommended)

But disconnecting it on the ground and reconnecting it at 4000 feet seems like a very bad tradeoff in terms of safety.


borg2050  (B License)

Nov 13, 2005, 11:13 PM
Post #12 of 207 (2404 views)
Shortcut
Re: [billvon] Opinions wanted about a 2-step RSL procedure [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
>If my main is good, then I can connect the RSL . . .
And be sure to be careful not to pull on the RSL while attaching it; that can cause a two-out. And if it flips through a reserve riser, or the harness ring before you connect it? You've just given yourself a main that cannot be cut away, which might cause you trouble if you do need to cut away.

Well said.

That is the tradeoff: accidently doing what I wanted to prevent. Hrmm...


phoenixlpr  (D 3049)

Nov 14, 2005, 12:30 AM
Post #13 of 207 (2389 views)
Shortcut
Re: [borg2050] Opinions wanted about a 2-step RSL procedure [In reply to] Can't Post

IMHO most of hte cases you do want to use RSL and I think it takes more time to connect than disconnect.

You can have 4 cases with RSL:
-Connected, no action on mal with RSL.
-Not connected, no action on mal with RSL.
-Connected, disconnect on mal.
-Not connected, connect after opening midair.

I think the 4th is worst of all.
I`d rather use RSL if I were you.


mnealtx  (B 30496)

Nov 14, 2005, 1:13 AM
Post #14 of 207 (2383 views)
Shortcut
Re: [borg2050] Opinions wanted about a 2-step RSL procedure [In reply to] Can't Post

 
I wanted to touch base on this statement...

Quote:
If a situation were to come about where my cutaway was not immediately successful, the RSL would have two chutes out.

If you have an RSL, your cutaway cables should be trimmed where the non-RSL riser releases first. Your RSL is not going to activate the reserve until the RSL riser releases. A "full pull" of your cutaway handle will (unless there's other problems) release BOTH risers.


SkyDane  (B License)

Nov 14, 2005, 4:05 AM
Post #15 of 207 (2352 views)
Shortcut
Re: [borg2050] Opinions wanted about a 2-step RSL procedure [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
QUESTION:
Would it make more sense to leave the RSL disconnected (throughout freefall) until under canopy than to have it connected the entire time?

I am thinking that this may prevent a high-altitude main / reserve entanglement, while preventing accidental death from a low cutaway due to: a canopy collision, canopy pilot-induced line twists (low altitude), etc...

I always pull at 5,000 ft--so the RSL wouldn't make much sense, unless I had a low-altitude canopy collision.

I hope I'm reading this wrong, but just in case.....
Do you think that an rsl will save you if you were involved in a canopy collision?
That is one time and place I don't want my reserve to come out immediately.

Disclaimer: Look at my jump numbers!

Edited to add: I'm not giving advice here but more asking to insure my own security in the future and I'm sure some more experienced people will correct me if I'm wrong Wink
At a low altitude you want a parachute over your head. No doubt about that! But is there any possibility that immediate reserve deployment will not assure another entanglement of canopies after a canopy collision?


(This post was edited by SkyDane on Nov 14, 2005, 6:55 AM)


Scrumpot  (D License)

Nov 14, 2005, 10:56 AM
Post #16 of 207 (2236 views)
Shortcut
Re: [mjosparky] Opinions wanted about a 2-step RSL procedure [In reply to] Can't Post

Yeah, I saw that as a direct quote ...but I didn't see the appropriate "credits" given! Wink


Superman32  (B 28074)

Nov 14, 2005, 12:12 PM
Post #17 of 207 (2210 views)
Shortcut
Re: [borg2050] Opinions wanted about a 2-step RSL procedure [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
Would it make more sense to leave the RSL disconnected (throughout freefall) until under canopy than to have it connected the entire time?

I think the opposite would make more sense,
Since I really don't think you want to be cutting anything away when you are bellow 1k, keep it connected until then, especially if it is a windy day and there's a chance you might get dragged.

One my instructors once said that if he was under 1K and he had a ball of shit over his head, the only thing he would do is make it a bigger ball of shit.


mjosparky  (D 5476)

Nov 14, 2005, 1:45 PM
Post #18 of 207 (2176 views)
Shortcut
Re: [Scrumpot] Opinions wanted about a 2-step RSL procedure [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Yeah, I saw that as a direct quote ...but I didn't see the appropriate "credits" given! Wink

The author has made it public domain. If it helps, no credit needed.Smile Who is the sweet thing hanging on you ugly ass?

Sparky


Icon134  (D 29820)

Nov 14, 2005, 3:52 PM
Post #19 of 207 (2137 views)
Shortcut
Re: [mjosparky] Opinions wanted about a 2-step RSL procedure [In reply to] Can't Post

I jumped w/an RSL for about 200 jumps and I only had it removed on my last reserve repack.

my reasons were as follows.

1. I have had a cutaway and I did pull both handles. (although my RSL activated my reserve.)

2. I've started jumping with a camera and having the RSL attached does create a chance (however small) of it getting snagged on my camera helmet.

In my limited esperience I would suggest that you leave your RSL connected. There are reasons to disconnect it. CRW, landing in unexpected high winds.

Just my 0.02 cents

Scott


UDSkyJunkie  (D 25746)

Nov 14, 2005, 4:40 PM
Post #20 of 207 (2121 views)
Shortcut
Re: [borg2050] Opinions wanted about a 2-step RSL procedure [In reply to] Can't Post

Looking at some of the things you have written, I would strongly recommend you find your local rigging guru and have him explain to you how an RSL works, what it does and does not do, and why... I think you are missing some important details. I can touch on a couple of things here, but there is much more information:

Quote:
Would it make more sense to leave the RSL disconnected (throughout freefall) until under canopy than to have it connected the entire time?
Since the purpose of an RSL is to deploy your reserve when you cutaway a malfunctioning main, leaving it disconnected until AFTER you have a good canopy means that it can't do it's job. The answer is no.

Quote:
Suppose the RSL were connected before the jump. If a situation were to come about where my cutaway was not immediately successful, the RSL would have two chutes out.

An RSL pulls the reserve pin when you separate from one of your main risers. The only way the situation you describe could happen is if the riser with the RSL lanyard is cut away (or broken) and the other riser is not. If your cutaway cables are the correct length, the first is all but impossible. Risers have been known to break, but it's extremely rare, and replacing your risers at recommended intervals reduces the possibility further.

Quote:
the RSL wouldn't make much sense, unless I had a low-altitude canopy collision.

A canopy collision (high altitude) is one of the few circumstances under which having an RSL connected is VERY BAD! The reason being because you need to have some separation from the other person before deploying the reserve... remember, the other person may also have to cut away... if you both cutaway and both reserves are deployed immediately, there is an increased chance of having one person fall through the others reserve or the two of you getting into another collision, only this time under your reserves! A low-altitude canopy collision (say... under 400 feet) complicates the situation further, as cutting away, RSL or not, will likley mean the reserve does not have enough altitude to deploy. The best way to survive these situations is not to get into them (useless advice if it happens anyway, but it's true).

Again, please find a rigger or instructor to explain why all of this is true. The advantages and disadvantages of the RSL are somewhat complex and cant' really be captured in print.

Good luck!


borg2050  (B License)

Nov 14, 2005, 4:43 PM
Post #21 of 207 (2119 views)
Shortcut
Re: [Icon134] Opinions wanted about a 2-step RSL procedure [In reply to] Can't Post

I find it interesting that you don't use the RSL, but still recommend it. I have heard that it saves more lives than it kills. Some swear by it, others wouldn't touch it. Everything is situational and freak accidents aren't really freak accidents. You made the decision not to use it because you know how you will handle a future mal. The deciding factors of whether using the RSL is a good or bad idea are so ambiguous for me as of now. Its too bad there isn't an easy way to figure out which one is best for the individual.

Just a thought(yeah...I'm somewhat of a geek):
Of course, it would be interesting to see some machine learning algorithms try to make a classifier based on the traits of skydivers who use RSLs and those who don't. Then again, that could be applied to other ambiguities.


borg2050  (B License)

Nov 14, 2005, 5:05 PM
Post #22 of 207 (2114 views)
Shortcut
Re: [UDSkyJunkie] Opinions wanted about a 2-step RSL procedure [In reply to] Can't Post

I do know that RSLs combined with high altitude collisions are VERY bad. However, I have noticed that the sky traffic progressively gets worse and worse after deployment, just as I am losing a lot of altitude. I am assuming that if I were to have a canopy collision, it would be at or around 1,000 ft, just as I am making my landing approach. A canopy collision at that altitude or lower would probably require the RSL. Attaching the RSL at that altitude is sure to cause a collision because of the dropzone congestion and combined inattention. Crazy

If only there were a better way to fine-tune these situations. I'd opt for 3 handles (1. reserve, 2. cutaway-with-RSL, 3. and then a smaller, cutaway-only, handel), but that might make things excessively complicated and lose its theoretical advantage.


borg2050  (B License)

Nov 14, 2005, 5:29 PM
Post #23 of 207 (2108 views)
Shortcut
Re: [UDSkyJunkie] Opinions wanted about a 2-step RSL procedure [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
The best way to survive these situations is not to get into them (useless advice if it happens anyway, but it's true).

That does seem to be one of the differences in the reasons for or against the RSL. Billvon spoke of another equally valid situation, one where the parachutist loses track of altitude (beyond the hard-deck) while battling some line twists. Its best not to get into these situations, but when you do happen to be in one, the RSL could potentially repair your mistake. Then again, the RSL could make one for you (main / reserve entanglement).


borg2050  (B License)

Nov 14, 2005, 6:07 PM
Post #24 of 207 (2095 views)
Shortcut
Re: [SkyDane] Opinions wanted about a 2-step RSL procedure [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
I hope I'm reading this wrong, but just in case.....
Do you think that an rsl will save you if you were involved in a canopy collision?
That is one time and place I don't want my reserve to come out immediately.

At higher altitudes I am in full agreement, but at lower ones (around 1,000ft), I'd rather take the risk of entanglement with the RSL than take the risk of cutting away too low and not being able to deploy the reserve in time. I suppose my mind may change about this when I do have my first mal, as others have said.

I'm too impatient and would rather re-invent the wheel.Tongue


(This post was edited by borg2050 on Nov 14, 2005, 6:09 PM)


UDSkyJunkie  (D 25746)

Nov 14, 2005, 7:20 PM
Post #25 of 207 (2077 views)
Shortcut
Re: [borg2050] Opinions wanted about a 2-step RSL procedure [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
find it interesting that you don't use the RSL, but still recommend it.

A fair point. I actually don't "recommend" an RSL as such... I believe each person should make an informed decsion. I also think that those who are new to the sport and haven't yet become informed are most often better off with an RSL then without. I made my decision long before I ever started jumping (been on DZs since age 2 weeks), and have not used an RSL since I stopped using rental gear. My reasoning was that I did not want one in the event of a canopy collision or a spinning malfunction, and that I did not believe I needed one.

I am much more impressed with the skyhook then the RSL, and intend to send my Vector back to the relative workshop this winter to have the skyhook mod done. I still do not feel I "need" one (and have the malfunction to prove it), but the design of the skyhook is such that I believe it can handle a truly violent malfunction better than any human or traditional RSL ever could, and that tips my personal benefit/risk scale in favor of it.

Quote:
I am assuming that if I were to have a canopy collision, it would be at or around 1,000 ft, just as I am making my landing approach.

The (non-CReW) canopy collisions I have seen (a few personally, most on video) have always been immediately after deployment before toggles are even released or as you say, on final approach. Unfortunately, none of the ones on final were anywhere near as high as 1,000 ft. All that I saw were below 500. Some people chose to cut away, others did not... all resulted in either a fatality or serious injury. Of those who cut away, none would have been helped by an RSL, although some may have been by the faster-acting skyhook.

Another note on collisions (sorry to beat a dead horse)... if you are the guy at the bottom of a collision, and you've got at least 500 feet, an RSL will probably save you. However, if you're the top guy and wrapped in somebody else's canopy or lines, an RSL won't help at all until the other guy chops and you can get out of the mess.

Each collision is unique, and there is no answer as to what is better for them in general and precious little useful advice on how to deal with them. They're just plain ugly shit.


First page Previous page 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 Next page Last page  View All

Forums : Skydiving : Safety and Training

 


Search for (options)