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front riser bucking on a cobalt 135

 

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TaylorC  (D 29769)

Nov 12, 2005, 11:38 PM
Post #1 of 91 (1645 views)
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front riser bucking on a cobalt 135 Can't Post

Just got my cobalt 135 it is used with 600 jumps but whenever i try to use the fronts it starts to buck. I have been told that if it bucks your pulling the fronts down to far but it starts to buck after i pull them down about 4 inches. Just wondering if it is with the lines or maybe i am just doing something wrong. I have expierence with the fronts on a 170 sabre and had no problems like this on it.


RTB  (D 582)

Nov 13, 2005, 2:52 AM
Post #2 of 91 (1580 views)
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Re: [TaylorC] front riser bucking on a cobalt 135 [In reply to] Can't Post

 
The steering lines have most likely shrunk. Check by looking for slack in them when no input is given or do a frontriser turn without holding the toggles, up high.
Or get their line trim chart and measure the length of the steering lines.


mattjw916  (D License)

Nov 13, 2005, 6:57 AM
Post #3 of 91 (1535 views)
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Re: [TaylorC] front riser bucking on a cobalt 135 [In reply to] Can't Post

I vote for shinking too but it you might want to have them replaced with something more "dimensionally stable" like vectran or dacron for the lower control lines. If they are spectra, the slider whipping down over them every jump will cause them to heat up and shrink resulting in exactly what you described. Either that, or they were just made the wrong length. Of course at 600 jumps, it's probably about due for a reline anyway.


Premier skybytch  (D License)

Nov 13, 2005, 7:15 AM
Post #4 of 91 (1527 views)
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Re: [mattjw916] front riser bucking on a cobalt 135 [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
you might want to have them replaced with something more "dimensionally stable" like vectran or dacron for the lower control lines.

Not Vectran. While it doesn't shrink like Spectra, it doesn't show wear like Spectra or Dacron. Being able to see wear on your control lines is a good thing; having a lower control line break on final would really suck.

I'd suggest replacing the lowers with Dacron, and since the canopy has 600 jumps on it, a complete reline wouldn't be a bad idea.

Would like to know who would sell someone with 160 jumps a reserve they load at 1.3 and a main they load at almost 1.5...


BIGUN  (D 23385)

Nov 13, 2005, 8:02 AM
Post #5 of 91 (1516 views)
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Re: [skybytch] front riser bucking on a cobalt 135 [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
Would like to know who would sell someone with 160 jumps a reserve they load at 1.3 and a main they load at almost 1.5...

Would like to "know" or would like to "meet." Wink


mattjw916  (D License)

Nov 13, 2005, 8:30 AM
Post #6 of 91 (1504 views)
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Re: [skybytch] front riser bucking on a cobalt 135 [In reply to] Can't Post

Well if you are diligent and replace them regularly (like you are supposed to) you don't have to worry about Vectran snapping. IIRC as vectran wears you will be able to notice it down near the slider anyway. MEL from Icarus can explain it better than me so I won't try to and butcher it. Plenty of canopies safely use Vectran control lines, most Icarus, Big Air Lotus/Sam, etc... Dacron probably is a little better though even though the lines get all fuzzy. Tongue


DBCOOPER  (D 24112)

Nov 13, 2005, 9:38 AM
Post #7 of 91 (1480 views)
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Re: [skybytch] front riser bucking on a cobalt 135 [In reply to] Can't Post

Would like to know who would sell someone with 160 jumps a reserve they load at 1.3 and a main they load at almost 1.5...

He'll be fine.There is less gravity up in CanadaCrazy


riggermick  (D 17071)

Nov 13, 2005, 10:08 AM
Post #8 of 91 (1473 views)
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Re: [DBCOOPER] front riser bucking on a cobalt 135 [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Would like to know who would sell someone with 160 jumps a reserve they load at 1.3 and a main they load at almost 1.5...

He'll be fine.There is less gravity up in CanadaCrazy


Just curious, without his weight how did you come up with these numbers? Maybe he's very skinny and only loads his canopys @ 1:1, or maybe you are right about the Canada/ gravity thing.

Mick.


Hooknswoop  (D License)

Nov 13, 2005, 10:12 AM
Post #9 of 91 (1472 views)
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Re: [riggermick] front riser bucking on a cobalt 135 [In reply to] Can't Post

His profile:

"Gear
Container: Micron
Main Canopy: Cobalt 135 ft (1.48 lbs/ft)
Reserve Canopy: Smart 150 ft (1.33 lbs/ft)
AAD: Cypres"

Derek


riggermick  (D 17071)

Nov 13, 2005, 10:27 AM
Post #10 of 91 (1465 views)
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Re: [Hooknswoop] front riser bucking on a cobalt 135 [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
His profile:

"Gear
Container: Micron
Main Canopy: Cobalt 135 ft (1.48 lbs/ft)
Reserve Canopy: Smart 150 ft (1.33 lbs/ft)
AAD: Cypres"

Derek

Wow, missed that, need more coffee or learn to read slower.
Just woke up, late night last night, sorry

Mick.


TaylorC  (D 29769)

Nov 13, 2005, 10:46 AM
Post #11 of 91 (1457 views)
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Re: [skybytch] front riser bucking on a cobalt 135 [In reply to] Can't Post

Would like to know who would sell someone with 160 jumps a reserve they load at 1.3 and a main they load at almost 1.5...
Lets not turn this into a thread about me being at a 1.5 wingloading please. I will tell you why i am on a 135 though. I spent 140 jumps on a 170 doing a lot of hop and pops and 7000 foot hop and pops at my local DZ. Atair recommends to choose a canopy that is 2 sizes smaller than what you want for performance also so the 135 is 2 sizes smaller than a 170. I have also lost a bit of weight since last time i updated my profile and i only load it to 1.37 and not 1.5 if that makes any diffrence with you all


Thanks for the replies about what the problem could be.


(This post was edited by TaylorC on Nov 13, 2005, 10:48 AM)


Canuck

Nov 13, 2005, 11:00 AM
Post #12 of 91 (1448 views)
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Re: [TaylorC] front riser bucking on a cobalt 135 [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Atair recommends to choose a canopy that is 2 sizes smaller than what you want for performance also so the 135 is 2 sizes smaller than a 170.


That mother fucker has got no soul Mad

Lengthen your brake lines. Anybody without enough experience to figure that out by himself shouldn't be jumping anything that highly loaded.

Canuck


Premier skybytch  (D License)

Nov 13, 2005, 11:13 AM
Post #13 of 91 (1439 views)
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Re: [TaylorC] front riser bucking on a cobalt 135 [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Atair recommends to choose a canopy that is 2 sizes smaller than what you want for performance also so the 135 is 2 sizes smaller than a 170.

Don't believe the Atair hype. A 135 is a 135 is a 135.

Good luck.


jsaxton  (D 26818)

Nov 13, 2005, 4:28 PM
Post #14 of 91 (1382 views)
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Re: [skybytch] front riser bucking on a cobalt 135 [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
you might want to have them replaced with something more "dimensionally stable" like vectran or dacron for the lower control lines.

Not Vectran. While it doesn't shrink like Spectra, it doesn't show wear like Spectra or Dacron. Being able to see wear on your control lines is a good thing; having a lower control line break on final would really suck.

Yeah, ask Peter (titanium legs) Learmouth Crazy


Premier ianmdrennan  (D 25821)
Moderator
Nov 13, 2005, 4:35 PM
Post #15 of 91 (1376 views)
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Re: [skybytch] front riser bucking on a cobalt 135 [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
Not Vectran. While it doesn't shrink like Spectra, it doesn't show wear like Spectra or Dacron. Being able to see wear on your control lines is a good thing;

Vectran shows wear just fine. HMA on the other hand doesn't.

Remember, Velocities are still lined with Vectran (including brakes). I do agree that it does require more maintenance than dacron or spectre from a breakage point of view though.

Blues,
Ian


RMURRAY

Nov 13, 2005, 6:09 PM
Post #16 of 91 (1339 views)
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Re: [ianmdrennan] front riser bucking on a cobalt 135 [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Quote:
Not Vectran. While it doesn't shrink like Spectra, it doesn't show wear like Spectra or Dacron. Being able to see wear on your control lines is a good thing;

Vectran shows wear just fine. HMA on the other hand doesn't.

Remember, Velocities are still lined with Vectran (including brakes). I do agree that it does require more maintenance than dacron or spectre from a breakage point of view though.

Blues,
Ian

I just keep records of exactly how many jumps on my canopy. Most people know that at as low as 300 spectra could be out of trim. Vectran lower control lines need to be watched constantly.

I have cascaded HMA now (dacron lower control lines) I expect 800 from them but we will see....

rm


dbattman  (D 27577)

Nov 13, 2005, 6:22 PM
Post #17 of 91 (1330 views)
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Re: [TaylorC] front riser bucking on a cobalt 135 [In reply to] Can't Post

Your lines are most likely out of trim. I just had my Cobalt 150 relined at about 500 jumps and it flies like a new canopy. Some of the symptoms to look for include sloppy, scary openings and poor handling of turbulance and strong winds. I also had poor performance on front risers similar to what you describe.

I bought a Vectran lineset from Skyworks Parachutes in Buffalo, South Carolina. The lower control lines on this set are not Vectran (which is good). Atair will sell but not install linesets. When you do your lines try to get the steering lines so the stall point is about full extension plus a shoulder roll down.

And yes, I agree with the others- you are putting yourself in the red zone. Aerodyne makes a great canopy for your level called the Pilot.


(This post was edited by dbattman on Nov 13, 2005, 6:25 PM)


TaylorC  (D 29769)

Nov 13, 2005, 6:34 PM
Post #18 of 91 (1324 views)
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Re: [Canuck] front riser bucking on a cobalt 135 [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
Atair recommends to choose a canopy that is 2 sizes smaller than what you want for performance also so the 135 is 2 sizes smaller than a 170.


That mother fucker has got no soul Mad

Lengthen your brake lines. Anybody without enough experience to figure that out by himself shouldn't be jumping anything that highly loaded.

Canuck
Sorry if the paragraphs are out of order since i just edited it and i don't wanna proofread my whole post again Tongue


I didn't come here to start this whole conversation about jumps numbers and what is a good size canopy for that level. I just wanted to reassure what i already thought and was told the problem might be. Since i read something that said if it bucks i might just be pulling the front riser down to far but i knew i wasn't doing that since i only pulled it down 3 inches and it started bucking. I like to make sure i am 100% correct before i go and buy new lines for it.

As i said in my first post i thought it might be something with lines but i wasn't 100% sure cause maybe it might have been something else. Everyone who sees me fly canopy is suprised at how well i do considering my jump numbers. I did not buy this canopy from atair and i have no problems flying a 135 i don't hook it in i don't do anything extreme with it. I found my 170 to be a bit slow after i lost that 10 pounds and needed something new. I do understand you guys are trying to look out for me and i appreciate it but i needed something faster and i did transition on a 150 stilleto for a few jumps before i went to the 135 + i had 10 jumps on 135's before i got this one, I know it isn't much. i have been opening really high and learning to fly my canopy. If it wasn't so damn cold i woulda been doing 10000 foot hop and pops all weekend with it.


(This post was edited by TaylorC on Nov 13, 2005, 6:47 PM)


dbattman  (D 27577)

Nov 13, 2005, 6:40 PM
Post #19 of 91 (1317 views)
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Re: [TaylorC] front riser bucking on a cobalt 135 [In reply to] Can't Post

OK- you signed the waiver. You do have health insurance for skydiving, right?

It's not the hooking or extremes that are going to do you in. It's the other low timer that cuts you off, the strong gust at 50 feet, the 'oh shit' turn or the foiled crosswind landing that causes you to reach your hand out to brake your fall (holding your toggle and causing you to turn yourself into the ground).

We've seen many more come before you that said the same thing. Have fun and try not to hurt yourself, or worse hurt someone else.


TaylorC  (D 29769)

Nov 13, 2005, 7:23 PM
Post #20 of 91 (1301 views)
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Re: [dbattman] front riser bucking on a cobalt 135 [In reply to] Can't Post

instead of telling people a plain NO why not help them out. Train them, show them how something is supposed to be done instead of telling them a straight no cause that will make a lot of people want to do it even more just to prove them wrong. It is not like i am jumping a ridiculously small canopy like a 107 velocity or a tiny ass pocket rocket. Thanks for the replies to the thread and i now know what i need to get down to my canopy so i can learn how to fly it better which is all i really wanted to know so i don't hurt myself with a bucking canopy.


dbattman  (D 27577)

Nov 13, 2005, 7:50 PM
Post #21 of 91 (1281 views)
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Re: [TaylorC] front riser bucking on a cobalt 135 [In reply to] Can't Post

Hey, your seniors all said you are pushing the edge. You had a smart ass comment that they shouldn't pass judgment on you without meeting you and everyone around you thinks you are a great canopy pilot beyond your experience. Maybe you're right- I really, really, hope so. And again, we've heard it all before.

If you look at our fatality numbers the danger zone is between 300-800 jumps. After that it drops off until we hit several thousand which would be correct because now we are into the swoopers zone. We lose a huge chunk of our people to landing accidents. You are entering the 'cocky zone' and you will be there for at least the next two years. I know this because I have been there myself. It's not just the size that has us concerned, it's the choice to go full-elliptical. Get a nice semi 150 and learn to fly the piss out of it then think about getting an elliptical.

And to address your concern, quality canopy coaching is ALWAYS available at no cost to you. You just need to seek out the really good ones that care and buy them a few beer to talk over. I'm not qualified to do this so I don't- I just recommend people to the ones who are.

Go ahead and try to prove eveyone wrong- you won't be the first. In the meantime, get your lines checked out.


mattjw916  (D License)

Nov 13, 2005, 9:31 PM
Post #22 of 91 (1255 views)
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Re: [TaylorC] front riser bucking on a cobalt 135 [In reply to] Can't Post

Think about it like this instead... you don't want to pick your main/reserve for "best case" scenarios, you want something that works for bad spots, downwinders, "out" landings, high-elevations DZs, unfamiliar DZs, no wind days with high density altitudes, etc... You may be able to land it 99/100 times without any problems but oftentimes in skydiving it's one strike, and your out... permanently...

Go to skydiveradio.com and listen to the Brian Germain interview and see what he thinks about downsizing too fast... I mean he literally wrote the book on HP canopy flight, has over 10k jumps, and designs parachutes. But if you think you know something he doesn't, by all means come back and let us know.


TaylorC  (D 29769)

Nov 13, 2005, 11:19 PM
Post #23 of 91 (1235 views)
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Re: [mattjw916] front riser bucking on a cobalt 135 [In reply to] Can't Post

i was informed by mutliple people that a cobalt was a good entry ellipitical canopy and even the company that makes it says it is a good ellipitical for beginners. I have put about 18 jumps on it now and it flies perfectly for what i need.

Anyways if any of you are at the canadian invasion in AZ in january you will see me there with my white/blue ribbed cobalt and if you would like to talk to me in person i would prefer that since a lot of shit doesn't come out properly on the internet.


marks  (D 22296)

Nov 14, 2005, 5:50 AM
Post #24 of 91 (1182 views)
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Re: [dbattman] front riser bucking on a cobalt 135 [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
it's the choice to go full-elliptical.

I dont have any problem putting aff students under full elliptical canopies. Why is it because of an ellipse it is "dangerous"?


dbattman  (D 27577)

Nov 14, 2005, 6:22 AM
Post #25 of 91 (1173 views)
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Re: [marks] front riser bucking on a cobalt 135 [In reply to] Can't Post

Correct you are Shim. It's not just the elipse, but the combo of elipse and load. Thanks for bringing up the point and I am a bit biased to the conservative side. Just curious, but what loading would you be doing for that situation? I think there's a few other places that use the larger elipticals for students but that's a whole other debate.

Taylor- hope we don't come out sounding too hard, but we hate seeing people go too fast and get hurt. Get some good canopy coaching and evaluation before the unexpected happens.


(This post was edited by dbattman on Nov 14, 2005, 6:30 AM)


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