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Custom made harness/containers??? / need advice

 

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Zydrius  (D 2079)

Nov 10, 2005, 10:17 AM
Post #1 of 34 (2306 views)
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Custom made harness/containers??? / need advice Can't Post

5Mb : http://skydive.home.lt/...to_loose_512kbps.wmv

1Mb, lower quality : http://skydive.home.lt/...oose_128kbps_001.wmv



We have local dealer, which measure skydivers and order such "custom made" rigs. It's not joke, we have at least in our dz three or even more rigs, ordered as 'custom', but result.....Do you thing it fit well?..safe?......There is long long story about...


spoons  (C 103745)

Nov 10, 2005, 10:41 AM
Post #2 of 34 (2265 views)
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Re: [Zydrius] Custom made harness/containers??? / need advice [In reply to] Can't Post

Shocked that is not a good fit...are the laterals way too long?


(This post was edited by spoons on Nov 10, 2005, 10:41 AM)


FrogNog  (C 34484)

Nov 10, 2005, 10:43 AM
Post #3 of 34 (2257 views)
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Re: [Zydrius] Custom made harness/containers??? / need advice [In reply to] Can't Post

Are any of the manufacturers near enough to you that you can go visit them directly to get measured?


Zydrius  (D 2079)

Nov 10, 2005, 10:48 AM
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Re: [spoons] Custom made harness/containers??? / need advice [In reply to] Can't Post

one of the points is that our dealer till now says that rigs were measured correctly and fits good. And the second point of discussion is who should pay for repair of such "custom made" rigs?


(This post was edited by Zydrius on Nov 10, 2005, 10:50 AM)


upndownshop  (D 23924)

Nov 10, 2005, 11:02 AM
Post #5 of 34 (2234 views)
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Re: [Zydrius] Custom made harness/containers??? / need advice [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
one of the points is that our dealer till now says that rigs were measured correctly and fits good. And the second point of discussion is who should pay for repair of such "custom made" rigs?

maybe you could have your dealer measure someone up, then that same person go get measured by the manufacturer (if possible) to see if they are the same.
If not the same numbers then maybe the dealer needs to be taught how to measure, and he should help fix the problem.

If they are the same then I would have to look at the manufacturer to fix the harness for free.

Just my thoughts

good luck


Zydrius  (D 2079)

Nov 10, 2005, 12:19 PM
Post #6 of 34 (2196 views)
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Re: [upndownshop] Custom made harness/containers??? / need advice [In reply to] Can't Post

it's sad to say, that even after this video material was sent to manufacturer together with actual measurement of half waist made while investigation, the replay from supplier, to be short, was a bill for more than 240+Eur(~283USD+) for repair and advice to contact local dealer. After that, i received email from our dealer he explained how he got those figures:

he added about 11 dditional cm to original length of thight circumfrence (leg strap) and about 7 to 10 cm to half waist length. The explanation was, he knows better than manufacturer how to measure people and also for ensuring rig would be not to small......

as i wrote before, we had at least three similar cases with few more guys who also ordered "custom made" rigs and all they have to long leg and back straps.

The global forum of dz.com perhaps the last chance to get some solution or advice and to safe our money and to solve that issue.

Manufacturer is more than 1000km from our place.


(This post was edited by Zydrius on Nov 10, 2005, 12:21 PM)


tso-d_chris

Nov 10, 2005, 12:35 PM
Post #7 of 34 (2183 views)
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Re: [Zydrius] Custom made harness/containers??? / need advice [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
he added about 11 dditional cm to original length of thight circumfrence (leg strap) and about 7 to 10 cm to half waist length. The explanation was, he knows better than manufacturer how to measure people and also for ensuring rig would be not to small......

I would find a different dealer.


pincheck  (C 105040)

Nov 10, 2005, 3:15 PM
Post #8 of 34 (2119 views)
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Re: [Zydrius] Custom made harness/containers??? / need advice [In reply to] Can't Post

I would say if the dealer is the one who did the measurements and by the looks of it Badly. Then he is the one who should pay but the manufacturer should step in here and provide a soloution which was not your making. Most equitment providers are very protective off thier reputation which can make or break a company. Contact them again go to the owner/director ! not the manager or customer service. Keep us posted


skycat  (D 25740)

Nov 10, 2005, 3:23 PM
Post #9 of 34 (2115 views)
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Re: [Zydrius] Custom made harness/containers??? / need advice [In reply to] Can't Post

Does it have cut in laterals like a Javelin Odyssey?


bob.dino  (E 2185)

Nov 10, 2005, 3:53 PM
Post #10 of 34 (2098 views)
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Re: [Zydrius] Custom made harness/containers??? / need advice [In reply to] Can't Post

I wouldn't jump a rig that badly fitting, and there's no way in hell I'd try to freefly in it.

In reply to:
he added about 11 dditional cm to original length of thight circumfrence (leg strap) and about 7 to 10 cm to half waist length. The explanation was, he knows better than manufacturer how to measure people and also for ensuring rig would be not to small......

If that's the case, it sounds like the dealer is at fault. Whether the dealer will pay for your rig to be fixed is a different matter. I know some dealers that would eat the cost and others I wouldn't be so sure about.

Best of luck.


bob.dino  (E 2185)

Nov 10, 2005, 3:53 PM
Post #11 of 34 (2097 views)
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Re: [tso-d_chris] Custom made harness/containers??? / need advice [In reply to] Can't Post

I doubt there are many in Lithuania. Nearest outside the country would probably be Sweden.


darkwing  (D 4164)

Nov 11, 2005, 3:19 AM
Post #12 of 34 (2032 views)
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Re: [Zydrius] Custom made harness/containers??? / need advice [In reply to] Can't Post

This seems to be an issue between an official dealer and the manufacturer. No way the end user should have to pay for the dealers mistake. Unfortunately, there may not be a way to force the dealer and manufacturer to settle the problem. Hopefully the manufacturer will lean on the dealer.


riggerrob  (D 14840)

Nov 11, 2005, 8:43 AM
Post #13 of 34 (1973 views)
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Re: [darkwing] Custom made harness/containers??? / need advice [In reply to] Can't Post

Sounds like your local dealer needs a lecture from the factory.
When I was Customer Service Manager at Rigging Innovations, I grumbled to my boss about all the new harnesses that I had to re-size. He replied that only about 5% of new harnesses didn't fit and half of those were for skydivers who had measured themselves ..... inventing methods only dimmly related to our charts .... or tailoring techniques .... or adding fudge factors ...
Maybe 2% of resizes were caused by judgment errors at the factory. For example, if a customer was on the dividing line between medium and large, and we built him a medium ...
.... and he preferred a loose fit .....
1% of the time, someone at the factory suffered a "brain fart."
Measurement errors outside the factory were paid for by someone outside the factory. If it was a judgement error inside the factory or an outright "brain fart," Rigging Innovations paid for the resize.
Frankly, I "gave away" a lot of re-sizes and updates because I was too busy to waste half a day arguing on the phone.

The bottom line is: measuring skydivers for new harnesses and jumpsuits is not rocket science. Measuring techniques are based on tailoring techniques. Your local tailor or seamstress is probably better at measuring skydivers than many dealers. Just ask them to measure you over your regular skydiving clothes (jeans, t-shirt, etc.)

Sounds like your local dealer could learn a few tricks from his grandmother ... the seamstress!


Zydrius  (D 2079)

Nov 12, 2005, 2:26 PM
Post #14 of 34 (1749 views)
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Re: [riggerrob] Custom made harness/containers??? / need advice [In reply to] Can't Post

after long discussion with dealer, he suggested to me to use some low paid local riger service to repair rigs. Even more, he sent to me some drawing with explanations how to repair rig, but underlined that this scheme is unofficial and I cant show it to anybody ( :) seems like joke, but I have original e-mails). And this not the end :) Also he wrote that scheme is not certified by manufacturer and they wont take any responsibility.



After such discussion and suggestions from dealer, I have sent one more letter to manufacturer on Friday with all details and the outcome was that they promised to start investigation on Monday (because they had public day on Friday).

I could guess that our dealer when ordering rigs gives measurement to manufacturer, but introduce it like customers made them by themselves.
Attachments: another one custom rig.jpg (42.0 KB)
  in freefall.jpg (64.9 KB)


inferno  (D 14581)

Dec 2, 2005, 4:37 AM
Post #15 of 34 (1370 views)
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Re: [Zydrius] Custom made harness/containers??? / need advice [In reply to] Can't Post

Hello, Zydrius.
First i would like to say - i know this "long", like Zydrius said, story very well. I'm local from Cote D'Azur where Basik's are located. And i know these nice guys from factory!.

Well custom made container you said - it is true, but do you hear something about "satisfaction guaranty"? No, newer? For example. Icarus Canopies S.A. have longest satisf. guaranty period - 31 day. If you buy new canopie and you find your self that canopie start to spining in "brackes released" position - you have 31 day to figure out this, and sand canopie back to factory. If not- your fucket up.

By posting this treath your "forget" to say for everybody - that you send firs letter to factory about your problem after (!!!) 1.5 year you got the rig... It is funny is in it???
After couple of your "nervous" letters Basic's agreed thad will make repairing in "half of price"... This price was about 90 Euro (not 242 like you said, there was UPS shipping costs 150 Eur from your area to france).

Next thing - you have maded more than 300 jumps with your rig. You have to know that after this time harness of your rig can become more looseless. Your risers can be longer up to 4 cm, your webbing can be lenger up to 5 cm every side.

Next - your "forget" to say (if you diller right) that you put 3th level's smolest canopie in this rig... And you screaming about safety...Cool...

And to the end of this - Skydiving newer was cheap sport, and newer will! Especialy in Europe!

Ourewouare.

Merci beaocoup!


luis  (D License)

Dec 2, 2005, 6:41 AM
Post #16 of 34 (1326 views)
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Re: [inferno] Custom made harness/containers??? / need advice [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
I'm local from Cote D'Azur where Basik's are located. And i know these nice guys from factory!.

funny, but did you notice that there was NO names of manufacturer or dealer untill you actually mentioned Basic Air Concept? Tongue

Well, anyway, I thought it may be a right time to share a couple of thoughts.
I jump together with both the customer and the dealer and also, due to my job specifics, know rather well what is customer support in general.

Obviously, there is two sides of the story. Sure, the customer discovered his problem rather late (call him "funny" if you like Cool )... OK, he got excessively nervous after he heard an answer he didn't like.
Let's assume that he has no rights to proper customer service because of beeing too late with his complains or simply because having not enough experience at the time of purchase to actually understand what is a properly sized rig.

But does that make a problem disappear? Does the rig fit better? Does that make good publicity? After all, how about the other couple of guys I know, who have similar issues with the same rigs?

Morally - the customer is right. Formally - probably the dealer is right as well. But from a pure business perspective, I find it rather amusing. Does it really make sense to argue with the customer about a couple of hundred Euros and risk loosing all future sales in the country (which is very real now)? If the dealer does not understand or cannot afford this - the manufacturer surely does (or should) Wink


pbla4024  (C 2033)

Dec 2, 2005, 7:03 AM
Post #17 of 34 (1318 views)
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Re: [luis] Custom made harness/containers??? / need advice [In reply to] Can't Post

There is clear picture of Advance attached . Everybody (except few blind persons) see it and knows who is manufacturer.


tso-d_chris

Dec 2, 2005, 9:03 AM
Post #18 of 34 (1282 views)
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Re: [pbla4024] Custom made harness/containers??? / need advice [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
There is clear picture of Advance attached . Everybody (except few blind persons) see it and knows who is manufacturer.

Either I am blind, or your definition of clear is different from mine, but none of the pics/videos on this thread clearly show the rig design or manufacturers logo.


pbla4024  (C 2033)

Dec 2, 2005, 9:34 AM
Post #19 of 34 (1276 views)
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Re: [tso-d_chris] Custom made harness/containers??? / need advice [In reply to] Can't Post

http://www.dropzone.com/...nt;postatt_id=54957;
Left bottom corner is clearly Advance. Compare it to left pic at http://www.basik.fr/advance5-en.php


tso-d_chris

Dec 2, 2005, 10:08 AM
Post #20 of 34 (1268 views)
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Re: [pbla4024] Custom made harness/containers??? / need advice [In reply to] Can't Post

It is definitely not a gimme. The first pic is blurry, and I can't match it to anything on the page you linked to. Bear in mind, us Americans don't see this logo often, if at all, so it is not as easily recognizable as, say, RWS's three ring logo, which would still be recognizable by most American skydivers blurred a bit.

Thanks for identifying the manufacturer, though. Smile


pbla4024  (C 2033)

Dec 2, 2005, 10:27 AM
Post #21 of 34 (1261 views)
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Re: [tso-d_chris] Custom made harness/containers??? / need advice [In reply to] Can't Post

Well you are probably right. It hit me because Advance is common at my DZ. What identified container to me was cutaway handle, then it was confirmed by other details.


inferno  (D 14581)

Dec 2, 2005, 11:38 AM
Post #22 of 34 (1248 views)
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Re: [luis] Custom made harness/containers??? / need advice [In reply to] Can't Post

First thing - this rig was maded by Parafun. Next one - all questions was send to Basik air concept. (Two diferent companies). Parafun - not exist anymore. Guys from Parafun working in Basik. And ONLY because they are very profesional and nice persones - they agreed to fix this problem on half price. (actualy they had a lot of problems be cause of Parafun bancrupt... But they still working. And working well!).

Imagine your self Mr. Lui, you have rig, jumping a lot with thim, having a lot shitty oppenings, impacts to the ground, water landings etc... and after few years you decide that your rig not fit properly anymore. What you will do? Do you will buy new one rig? NO No no... For what? You can start to asking manufacturer to make some rig fixations or sometging... or in the end "give me half price on new rig". THIS WAY ZYDRIUS DECIDED TO GO. But sorry folk. Wrong try.

Third way - Zydrius start to send the letters only after Basik relised some Safety buls. Cool..

What i can say, Mr. Zydrius, i know a lot of good persones in skydiving society - Basik staff for egz. And i know a lot of sux persones. In what side you are?


For pbla4024 - do not to try explane for Americans who is Advance rig. They know only American stuff. And newer get Europien one.

___________________________________________________
Speed is nothing without control


(This post was edited by inferno on Dec 2, 2005, 11:49 AM)


pbla4024  (C 2033)

Dec 2, 2005, 11:51 AM
Post #23 of 34 (1233 views)
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Re: [inferno] Custom made harness/containers??? / need advice [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
For pbla4024 - do not to try explane for Americans who is Advance rig. They know only American stuff. And newer get Europien one.
Funny thing is there is no US made AAD. You know, underdeveloped country :-)


masterrig  (D License)

Dec 2, 2005, 12:03 PM
Post #24 of 34 (1228 views)
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Re: [pbla4024] Custom made harness/containers??? / need advice [In reply to] Can't Post

 Ahem! FXC 12000 and Astra? (Santa Ana California... U.S.A.)


Chuck


Zydrius  (D 2079)

Dec 2, 2005, 12:55 PM
Post #25 of 34 (1210 views)
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Re: [inferno] Custom made harness/containers??? / need advice [In reply to] Can't Post

 
first of all, thank you for your opinion.


Let me explain situation again.

I was low experienced skydiver (like other guys) and decided to change my old container to new one, local dealer measured me and other guys and ordered custom rigs (money in advance).

We have a lot of captured video during whole year, i mean video after one-two-..-five months of jumping. Now i rechecked all material and pls find attached
more photos as evidence that our rigs were badly measured (shots from different periods).

Dealer after such video and huge amount of photos as evidence said "go away, your rigs manufactured properly, looseness is comfort, nobody will help you, you have to pay money for repair if you're unhappy", after that he said, that "perhaps your rigs were made wrong by manufacturer and he don't cares about that, it's to late".


Feedback from manufacturer through dealer was: there is repair instruction, manufacturer do not take any responsability for safety, you can't show it to anybody, only to riger.


Most important thing, that now we have emails from our dealer explaining how he measure customers and order custom made rigs.


Do you thing it's normal? Customer service? Not bamboozlement?



I didn't posted name of manufacturer, just asked for opinion about such situation. Why dealer decided to bamboozle customers. Do such way worth that? For us situation is very clear, 'cause there is to much evidence our rigs were ordered in wrong way. You can say we are 'silly' or 'stupid' customers, but that will not help to solve that issue in right way.


Local riger made repair for my rig (second is waiting), back strap now is shorter 14cm!, each leg strap cover shorter 6cm (method which was suggested by manufacturer did not fit to my rig, I will explain you later with photos and additional material) . Local dealer paid for repair but it costed and will cost to much bad emotions for both.


Is the way we are going really wrong? Are we 'sux'? I don't think soWink





P.s.

I didn't made 300jumps on my rig (we do not discuss about patches on our rigs, the point is safety) and when rig was ordered, i had Heatwave170, this canopy was little bit to big for my rig, so rigger put longer main closing loop, now i have Xf139 and it fit perfect (pls do not use info from weak vessel).
Attachments: 1.jpg (47.9 KB)
  2.jpg (36.2 KB)
  3.jpg (38.0 KB)
  4.jpg (52.8 KB)


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