Forums: Skydiving: Safety and Training:
Cypress SAVE

 

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MrJones  (B License)

Nov 1, 2005, 12:12 PM
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Cypress SAVE Can't Post

Details: jumper with 100+ jumps hard a hard pull went back for second attempt, again hard pull.
She them pulled the cutaway ONLY and went back to position. Cypress fired, and she landed out safely.

When asked about the dive and why she did NOT pull the reserve, she stated that she was waiting for her RSL to deploy the reserve. ????

She was spoken too by many on the ground.

Question to all is: Is this a grounding situation?


flailmonkey2  (C 35095)

Nov 1, 2005, 12:18 PM
Post #2 of 269 (4892 views)
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Re: [MrJones] Cypress SAVE [In reply to] Can't Post

she should seriously consider grounding herself, rather than have others enforcing that upon her. maybe she shouldn't be skydiving if she doesn't understand the equipment to that degree.


gemini  (D 24349)

Nov 1, 2005, 12:19 PM
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Re: [MrJones] Cypress SAVE [In reply to] Can't Post

I think so. What if her Cypres had not been turned on? It happens...


LawnDart21  (D License)

Nov 1, 2005, 12:23 PM
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Re: [MrJones] Cypress SAVE [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
Question to all is: Is this a grounding situation?

I say no, it does not sound like gross negligence on the jumpers part, rather a lack of education on the functionality of her EPs and her gear.

She obviously was not correctly informed on how the addition of an RSL would affect her EPs. She also did not have a clear understanding of jumper responsibility in general regarding EPs (the importance of pulling silver). Now she either was taught it and forgot it, or not taught well enough as to the utmost importance of completing EPs. As a matter of course, I would backtrack through her student progression and see if there was something there that was missed.

There is NO WAY in this sport that any jumper should get to 100 jumps without having a clear understanding of their EPs and how thier choice of gear affects those EPs.

Its not a grounding situation, its a re-education situation.

Just my .02


YISkyDive  (D License)

Nov 1, 2005, 12:24 PM
Post #5 of 269 (4853 views)
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Re: [MrJones] Cypress SAVE [In reply to] Can't Post

Wow-- Frown

A few years a go, when I was 13 or 14, I saw someone that had a cypress fire that waited for her cypress to fire. That was about as insane a thing I have seen before entering the sport. People look HUGE that low to the ground.

Im not an I, or I/E, or a high jump number jumper, but waiting for any "back up device" is unacceptable. Had she waited for her cypress- and it not been on/ calibrated at the wrong altitude/ loop not through cutter/ etc... this would be an extremely diffrent incident with a sad outcome. Even worse, what happens if she jumped at a dropzone that had a mountain, or hill that was even 300Ft above the Dz? I've seen DZs, many, with those within a mile.

I can't comment on the grounding, due to my lack of time- but i think this person needs extensive gear review, and maybe even a FJC. It is taught, and stressed like no other, that to put trust into anything but your left and right hand is about as bad as it gets.

On the grounding thing- I'd say it like this.. If you don't know your emergency procedures and equipment.. stay on the ground.. willingly.


beowulf  (C License)

Nov 1, 2005, 12:25 PM
Post #6 of 269 (4846 views)
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Re: [LawnDart21] Cypress SAVE [In reply to] Can't Post

If she is dumb enough to reach her current level with out figuring that out on her own then she is better off playing golf or bowling.


jmpnkramer  (D 19134)

Nov 1, 2005, 12:26 PM
Post #7 of 269 (4843 views)
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Re: [MrJones] Cypress SAVE [In reply to] Can't Post

Well, we do not know the details of her training.

Maybe it was not properly explained to her.

Maybe someone without an instructor rating misguided her.

Yes, we should seek out the best source but as a young jumper how are they to be positive sometimes. There are some shakey instructors out there.

I think that she should have been talked to by Staff & Staff only.

It should be the responsibility of the Intstructors of every DZ to look out for the young jumpers.

Instead of criticizing we should be re-training and teaching.

That is my take.


Laters,



K-MAN!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Cool



.

She did fail to follow procedure though. I know all schools across the country teach relatively the same and none would not teach the sequence for a cut-away. Unacceptable.


.


(This post was edited by jmpnkramer on Nov 1, 2005, 12:31 PM)


mjosparky  (D 5476)

Nov 1, 2005, 12:26 PM
Post #8 of 269 (4843 views)
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Re: [MrJones] Cypress SAVE [In reply to] Can't Post

She should be grounded at least until she gets some rather intense refresher training. She failed to do 1 of the 2 things that MUST be done on every jump to survive. That is deploying a land able canopy. She left this to a back up device. She was 3 to 3.5 seconds from dead.

Sparky


skymedic  (C 33561)

Nov 1, 2005, 12:27 PM
Post #9 of 269 (4837 views)
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Re: [flailmonkey2] Cypress SAVE [In reply to] Can't Post

I'd say it's more than a grounding situation...this is a time to encourage bowling for a sport over skydiving. waiting for anything to do the job over you is like waiting for your funeral. Not smart at all. Scary too.


Hooknswoop  (D License)

Nov 1, 2005, 12:31 PM
Post #10 of 269 (4814 views)
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Re: [MrJones] Cypress SAVE [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
When asked about the dive and why she did NOT pull the reserve, she stated that she was waiting for her RSL to deploy the reserve. ????

And people didn't believe me (and others) about device dependancyUnsure. This a major fault of the RSL. People have gone in because they were waiting for their RSL to activate their reserve.

Education is the answer. The way RSL's are taught and used is often incorrect. This is the result of that poor instruction and/or understanding of RSL's.

Derek


LawnDart21  (D License)

Nov 1, 2005, 12:31 PM
Post #11 of 269 (4813 views)
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Re: [beowulf] Cypress SAVE [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
If she is dumb enough to reach her current level with out figuring that out on her own then she is better off playing golf or bowling.

There is a difference between dumb and ignorant. Unless you start the sport with a complete understanding of everything there is to know, you must learn it as you go. Those of us that were taught by exceptional instructors take for granted the fact that not all students are given the same level of thorough instruction that we were.

Add to that at alot of "busy" DZs, once a student gets thier license they are cast off on thier own, often forced to learn skydivings "next lessons" on thier own, or from a 200 jump wonder that teaches them "less than accurate" things.

Falling through the safety cracks is very possible and it can and does happen from time to time.

Like I said before, this would be a great opportunity for the DZ to learn where in her path she failed and then prevent it from happening again, by being able to recognize the signals that caused it, whether it was as a student or a licensed skydiver.


mjosparky  (D 5476)

Nov 1, 2005, 12:33 PM
Post #12 of 269 (4802 views)
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Re: [jmpnkramer] Cypress SAVE [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Instead of criticizing we should be re-training and teaching.

Grounding is not criticizing. It is a way of forcing a jumper to consider the nature of the behavior that brought on the grounding and in this case receive training to avoid it in the future.

Sparky


beowulf  (C License)

Nov 1, 2005, 12:40 PM
Post #13 of 269 (4773 views)
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Re: [LawnDart21] Cypress SAVE [In reply to] Can't Post

No one in this sport should be standing around waiting for someone to teach them about their own gear. They should be proactive in researching out their gear and asking questions. It is the jumpers responsibility to makes sure they understand their gear. It isn't rocket science. She failed herself. She failed to make sure she understood her gear. She failed to pull her reseve ripcord. It isn't that hard to figure out. Apparently her life isn't that important to her since she didn't make sure she knew what she was doing before jumping.

I would never blame anyone else for my own ignorance. I am responsible for my own education. All teachers can do is provide information and explainations. It is up to me to make sure I understand.


jsaxton  (D 26818)

Nov 1, 2005, 12:41 PM
Post #14 of 269 (4761 views)
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Re: [MrJones] Cypress SAVE [In reply to] Can't Post

Time for the 'Bowling' speach


MrJones  (B License)

Nov 1, 2005, 12:51 PM
Post #15 of 269 (4708 views)
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Re: [Hooknswoop] Cypress SAVE [In reply to] Can't Post

In discussing this with others I was amazed at the lack of understanding of an RSL by both those with and without one.


Hooknswoop  (D License)

Nov 1, 2005, 12:53 PM
Post #16 of 269 (4699 views)
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Re: [beowulf] Cypress SAVE [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
No one in this sport should be standing around waiting for someone to teach them about their own gear.

She probably thought she understood how it worked and didn't know that she didn't know. If you think you know how something works, why would you ask?

You don't know what you don't know, especially at 100 jumps.

The RSL seems so simple to you and me, but I remember whan a parachute was a mystical thing that I thought I understood, but had no idea how most of it worked. I am amazed it didn't cause me more trouble looking back at how little I knew. It is difficult to gain that knowledge.

I would cut her a break, especially if she became determined to learn as much as possible as quickly as possible about gear.

Newer jumpers have alot of information coming at them. They can't even tell what is really important and what is nice to know. They can't remember it all either. One common method of dealing with this information overload is to simplify it as much as possible. "The RSL will activate your reserve when you cutaway from a partial malfunction, such as a line over, bag lock, broken lines, horse-shoe, etc, because it is attached to the main riser by this little shackle that you can disconnect, with the reserve ripcord running through the ring on the other end." becomes: "The RSL will pull my reserve when I cutaway" They barely know what a line over is and in order to remember at least something, they sometimes simplify. It isn't great, but given the choice between simplification and remebering nothing......

How RSL's are taught and explained needs to change and be done very carefully.

I would bet I know something about gear that you don't. How come you didn't seek me out to educate yourself?

Derek


(This post was edited by Hooknswoop on Nov 1, 2005, 12:54 PM)


Hooknswoop  (D License)

Nov 1, 2005, 12:56 PM
Post #17 of 269 (4683 views)
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Re: [MrJones] Cypress SAVE [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
In discussing this with others I was amazed at the lack of understanding of an RSL by both those with and without one.

And it isn't just RSL's. Name another piece of gear and I can give an example of someone misunderstanding it, even people that have been jumping a long time. I know someone that has been jumping a very long time and didn't know that the RSL has caused fatalities or that PD's Slinks are actually stronger than Rapide links, and he is a Master Rigger.

Derek


livendive  (D 21415)

Nov 1, 2005, 12:56 PM
Post #18 of 269 (4682 views)
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Re: [MrJones] Cypress SAVE [In reply to] Can't Post

Grounding? Yes. As Sparky said, she should be grounded and put through some fairly extensive retraining. I don't know if a TUG speech is called for though, I don't know that those are ever warranted for one isolated incident.

I do know this though...my first jump students have a better understanding of the RSL than this jumper demonstrated. Crazy

Keep pulling handles till your goggles fill with blood.

Blues,
Dave


Hooknswoop  (D License)

Nov 1, 2005, 1:01 PM
Post #19 of 269 (4659 views)
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Re: [livendive] Cypress SAVE [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
I do know this though...my first jump students have a better understanding of the RSL than this jumper demonstrated.

You would think so, bit again, it seems like the better you explain it, the more it doesn't soak in. Spend too much time and energy on the RSL and they won't remember the dive flow or what a base leg isWink.

I was always amazed at how careful I had to be talking to students because of how they would understand what I said. I had to look at it from their perspective, which was very different from my own.

Derek


jmpnkramer  (D 19134)

Nov 1, 2005, 1:01 PM
Post #20 of 269 (4658 views)
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Re: [mjosparky] Cypress SAVE [In reply to] Can't Post

Just like the saying Sparky if the shoe fits. You are not criticizing but others are.

That is not what this section is for.

You basically agree with me.

You know I respect you Brother! Smile

It is the other people here talking smack some of which jump just enough to be dangerous.

I am sure you have seen lots of stuff just like me. Probably much more than me.

Hell, I have had the misfortune of many things happening to me.


Laters,


K-MAN!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Cool


voodew1  (D 25988)

Nov 1, 2005, 1:01 PM
Post #21 of 269 (4651 views)
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Re: [MrJones] Cypress SAVE [In reply to] Can't Post

No jumper should ever be grounded for not doing the right thing. What is grounding the jumper going to do to fix the problem other than make them uncurrent which leads to problems like the one incountered.
The jumper should be pulled aside and drilled with emergency procedures but that is something that takes only a few hours not days.

The jumper I am sure would welcome the training as they are probably wigged out as it is!

Grounding a jumper should only be used if the jumper purposely does something dangerously stupid.

Accidental stupidity needs retraining not grounding.

I would like to know how grounding a jumper is going to make the jumper safer???????


YISkyDive  (D License)

Nov 1, 2005, 1:02 PM
Post #22 of 269 (4642 views)
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Re: [MrJones] Cypress SAVE [In reply to] Can't Post

This is second hand info, and or random discussion one day at the DZ.. but is it true that if you have a cypress fire in a non emergency situation that you are indefinetly grounded in the UK? I could be wrong, I heard this from an Aussie S&TA?


gemini  (D 24349)

Nov 1, 2005, 1:05 PM
Post #23 of 269 (4623 views)
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Re: [voodew1] Cypress SAVE [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
Grounding a jumper should only be used if the jumper purposely does something dangerously stupid.

And not performing your EPs is not dangerously stupid?


Premier billvon  (D 16479)
Moderator
Nov 1, 2005, 1:07 PM
Post #24 of 269 (4620 views)
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Re: [LawnDart21] Cypress SAVE [In reply to] Can't Post

>Unless you start the sport with a complete understanding of
>everything there is to know, you must learn it as you go.

Yep. And now we have ads in Parachutist that say that, during a mal, the procedure should be 1) cutaway and 2) smile - as long as you have a specific RSL. With all the information available nowadays, it's easy to get information about your gear. Unfortunately it's not all correct.


Hooknswoop  (D License)

Nov 1, 2005, 1:09 PM
Post #25 of 269 (4610 views)
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Re: [gemini] Cypress SAVE [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
And not performing your EPs is not dangerously stupid?

She thought she did. She didn't intentionally pull low or anything. She misunderstood how an RSL works, which is grounds for a grounding, then there should be a lot of skydivers grounded.

Grounding is for an attitude adjustment, not because someone made a mistake.

Derek


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