Oct 17, 2005, 2:00 PM
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Re: [Hooknswoop] Should an AFFI lose their rating if they 'drop' a student?
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No, AFFI's are hopefully doing their best but perfection should be expected of no one. Now if they do it on a regular basis or cannot fly their slot on a non-problematic student...
Oct 17, 2005, 2:46 PM
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Re: [Hooknswoop] Should an AFFI lose their rating if they 'drop' a student?
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Not if it happens the first time and probably not if it happens a second time. If it happens more often, it should be considered (evaluation jumps, ....)
I once had a very stressful jump in my first year, I DID get the student, but it was closed not to get him by 5000ft. I learned very very much on this jump.
What I want to say: a bad instructional performance or very closed jump once in a while (once in a few hundred jumps, not every other weekend!!) will get you back to the ground. It will remind you, what is possible up there. Its probably necessary to really learn what AFF is about. To keep you focused and have a very professional and serious attitude to instructing.
Oct 17, 2005, 5:21 PM
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Re: [Hooknswoop] Should an AFFI lose their rating if they 'drop' a student?
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It seems that folks are overlooking the other side of the coin here. I've seen little students that have through some work, gotten away from AFF-I's at different DZs due to their little size/light weight and flattening/de-arching due to fear or whatever.
Oct 17, 2005, 6:13 PM
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Re: [AggieDave] Should an AFFI lose their rating if they 'drop' a student?
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It is the AFF instructors responsibility to know their range and to dress themselves and their student for success...trust me, a student is not "trying" to get away from their instructor, if it happens it is almost always the instructor's lack of preparation.
I think it might be a combination of dumb luck and proper preparation, which includes knowing when to decline jumping with a particularly sized student, that I have never found myself in this situation during my 2000+ AFFI jumps.
(This post was edited by Miami on Oct 17, 2005, 6:16 PM)
Oct 17, 2005, 6:19 PM
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Re: [AggieDave] Should an AFFI lose their rating if they 'drop' a student?
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It seems that folks are overlooking the other side of the coin here. I've seen little students that have through some work, gotten away from AFF-I's at different DZs due to their little size/light weight and flattening/de-arching due to fear or whatever.
Dress for success. I have worn camera wings on an AFF jump (without using the thumb loops). You have to be able to match the students fall rate.
Oct 17, 2005, 6:43 PM
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Re: [lewmonst] Should an AFFI lose their rating if they 'drop' a student?
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Dress for success. I have worn camera wings on an AFF jump (without using the thumb loops). You have to be able to match the students fall rate.
Obviously, I'm not an AFF-I, I was just commenting on the discussion and the singularity of the arguments, in that it seems that the discussion was trapped by everyone's paradigm of "loosing a student."
Oct 18, 2005, 10:41 AM
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Re: [Hooknswoop] Should an AFFI lose their rating if they 'drop' a student?
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If an AFFI main side on Levels 1-3 loses control of a student without deploying them, probably. Probably a stepped disciplinary process. Lose 1, on probation for the next 100 AFF jumps, lose another during that time, lose rating or have to repeat the eval jumps with an AFFIE.
On a release dive? I think that the same disciplinary process might be called for if there was video proof that the AFFI didn't even try.
When I got my AFF rating, we were required to really FLY. My IE's worked us HARD. If an instructor has demonstrated their ability to catch and deploy an out-of-control student, I don't know why they would stop trying once they got the rating.
Are there "easy" AFFI course directors letting instructor candidates cruise through the course?
Oct 18, 2005, 2:31 PM
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Re: [Hooknswoop] Should an AFFI lose their rating if they 'drop' a student?
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If they do not posses the ability or are not willing to catch a tumbling, panic'ed, out of control student.
If they are not willing to try - they don't need to skydive at all. NEVER GIVE UP. They should have their rating pulled.
If its an ability issue, I would have to give them a second chance. Everyone has a bad day skydiving eventually. The problem is it could be a year before they have another out of control student. Now, if there are a bunch of out of control students, then whoever is teaching the first jump course needs a talking too if the AFFI and FJC instructor are not the same.
Oct 18, 2005, 2:37 PM
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Re: [Deuce] Should an AFFI lose their rating if they 'drop' a student?
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Are there "easy" AFFI course directors letting instructor candidates cruise through the course?
The course I saw, at least one candidate passed that was unable to catch the evaluator on their back. I have seen video of AFFI's not catching students which fortunately pulled. It happens.
Oct 20, 2005, 3:45 PM
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Re: [Ron] Should an AFFI lose their rating if they 'drop' a student?
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i've only got 15 jumps and only just passed my AFF
on my 12th jump (level 7) i did my track, but started to spin... i span faster than i've ever span and couldn't stop. My instructor came in to stop me, i kicked him while spinning and dislocated his shoulder, he then broke his foot on landing. He didn't stop my spin, but i'm so so glad he tried to stop me...
i couldn't reach my PC as my arms where being forced out with the centrafugal force... i was panicking and kept trying to find my PC... i found it at about 3,000 feet and pulled. I also got told that i should have gone stright for my reserve at that altitude
he was willing to catch a spinning student, i'll never forget that... he got a bottle of his favourit drink and my heart felt thanks
(This post was edited by artistcalledian on Oct 20, 2005, 3:46 PM)
Oct 31, 2005, 7:32 AM
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Re: [Hooknswoop] Should an AFFI lose their rating if they 'drop' a student?
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I know several, currently-working AFF Instructors who outright suck and should have never got the rating in the first place. Thankfully, none of them work with me at Raeford Parachute Center School. One I know in particular will let go on exit almost everytime there is someone on the other side. Reason? He can't fly the exit off the plane and maintain HIS OWN stability, much less that of the student. This same person also lacks the ability stand up tandems, ever.
If you don't think there are course directors that have "given away" ratings, you are sadly mistaken. You are also in the dark if you don't know that many, many uncurrent rated "instructors" (every discipline) get their ratings pencil whipped every year.
Sadly, there are few places that will ground "current" rated individuals who don't measure up. Thankfully, I work at a place that will not hesitate to do so.
Nov 7, 2005, 11:09 AM
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Re: [Hooknswoop] Should an AFFI lose their rating if they 'drop' a student?
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Hmm, I stumbled into the instructor's forum by accident.
When I did AFF years ago, on level 5 or so I got stuck in a neverending backflip for several thousand feet. I eventually said to myself, the ground is getting bigger every time you see it (green, blue, green, blue, etc), if you cannot stop this spin the next rotation, you are going to pull anyway (I could not, or thought I could not, check my alti). I managed to stop the flip and within seconds my AFFI was docked on my and screaming pull. I gladly did.
On the ground I thanked him for "stopping" me. He laughed and said there was no way he could have stopped me, that he couldn't have touched me while tumbling and I did it myself. He simply came in after I stopped.
This was a VERY experienced and well known skydiver/instructor/DZO.
I am not a great belly flier, so I don't know the answer to this - is it possible to save someone who is tumbling out of control? If it's not possible, you obviously shouldn't punish an AFFI for failing to do the impossible.
Nov 8, 2005, 6:47 AM
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Re: [Hooknswoop] Should an AFFI lose their rating if they 'drop' a student?
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Absolutely, but the really good AFFI's grabt he student before that happens.
In my case, I was supposed to be doing a backflip, without anyone holding onto me obviously. The flip never stopped, I lost leg awareness and left my feet on my ass. So grabbing me ahead of time was not an option.
Nov 8, 2005, 7:51 AM
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Re: [The111] Should an AFFI lose their rating if they 'drop' a student?
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In my case, I was supposed to be doing a backflip, without anyone holding onto me obviously. The flip never stopped, I lost leg awareness and left my feet on my ass. So grabbing me ahead of time was not an option.
Then you catch the student. If you can't catch a student within a reasonable amount of altitude (and a student shouldn't be allowed to initiate an intentional back loop from too low of an altitude), they shouldn't be doing AFF, IMO. I have some video of me doing exactly that.
Nov 8, 2005, 10:38 AM
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Re: [SkymonkeyONE] Should an AFFI lose their rating if they 'drop' a student?
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Chuck, I know who you are talking about, you should see his tandem exits. I having been the reserve side instructor with him he will indeed blow the exit and let go. Re-train and re-eval would be his best choice if he cant make it pull his rating.
Nov 8, 2005, 10:55 AM
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Re: [Hooknswoop] Should an AFFI lose their rating if they 'drop' a student?
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Yes and No
(Yes) If an instructor who has repeatedly lost a student for what ever the reason I feel it’s the instructors responsibility take a break and practice their weaker skills OR give up their instructor rating.
(No) I have not lost a student yet but it will and when it does I hope I am on a two-instructor jump. I say this because a lot of questionable and scary stuff will happen to an individual if they’re in the sport long enough.
Nov 8, 2005, 11:59 AM
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Re: [SkymonkeyONE] Should an AFFI lose their rating if they 'drop' a student?
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Sorry to some of you I am going to offend! "If the JM can"t fly, he must go bye bye!" Size and weight (in my opinion) are not factors. If the student is too light or too heavy then give up your slot to an appropriately sized instructor. Lew said it best "Dress for success", however there is no excuse for the inability to fly your slot. It ain't rocket science, but it also isn't for everyone!
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