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RSL - yes or no?

 

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1383  (A 1383)

Jul 27, 2002, 6:04 AM
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RSL - yes or no? Can't Post

Yesterday I finely bought my first rig a brand new
coustom made voodoo with a 170 hornet and pd reserv . Me so HappySmile
But my rigger recommended aganiest RSL and I wanted your opeinion on that.
I got my rig like my rigger recommended whitout RSL
but now I'm not sure. some help please.


Premier PhreeZone  (D License)
Moderator
Jul 27, 2002, 8:12 AM
Post #2 of 31 (3842 views)
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Re: [1383] RSL - yes or no? [In reply to] Can't Post

RSL's are a person decision. Don't let some one pressure you into taking it off or leaving it on if its not what you want. On some rigs you can have it installed but just not cliped to the main risers until you want it atached. This is the option I'd use if I could. That way you can use it if you want to, or disconnect it if you don't want it for some reason.

One other thing, if you have a cypres that does not eliminate the need for an RSL. They operate in 2 different fahions and as such need to be evaluated differently too.

Lets avoid the whole yes or no thing... its been covered in the past and if any one want to read those please search the archives.


fasterfaller  (E License)

Jul 27, 2002, 8:35 AM
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Re: [PhreeZone] RSL - yes or no? [In reply to] Can't Post

I have one . Some jumps I use it , some jumps I don't .


MarkM  (C 35089)

Jul 27, 2002, 9:54 AM
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Re: [1383] RSL - yes or no? [In reply to] Can't Post

What were the specific reasons he recommended against one?


drenaline  (C License)

Jul 27, 2002, 2:03 PM
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Re: [1383] RSL - yes or no? [In reply to] Can't Post

Here is a good article about the RSL.
http://www.dropzone.com/...thequotReserve.shtml

also go to

http://www.dropzone.com/gear/articles/

and you will see 3 more articles about the RSL, they are very good and very informative.


Designer  (D 5771)

Jul 27, 2002, 3:44 PM
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Re: [1383] RSL - yes or no? [In reply to] Can't Post

I had a long talk with a person in the know about this very subject years ago.Because I fly a high performance elliptical I chose not to have one (RSL) installed with my rig.I do believe they are an excellent tool for students.


1383  (A 1383)

Jul 27, 2002, 4:03 PM
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Re: [MarkM] RSL - yes or no? [In reply to] Can't Post

He's reason was that after a a spining cannopy mal
if the reserv will open too quickly like with an RSL
that will resalt in a line twist on the reserv...
and you defntly don't want that!


(This post was edited by 1383 on Jul 27, 2002, 4:06 PM)


Jimbo  (D License)

Jul 27, 2002, 4:48 PM
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Re: [1383] RSL - yes or no? [In reply to] Can't Post

 

Quote:
He's reason was that after a a spining cannopy mal if the reserv will open too quickly

Uh. Reserves are supposed to open quickly. As a matter of fact I believe that all reserves certified for use in the US are required to open in 300 ft or less. This is a good thing.

Quote:
like with an RSL that will resalt in a line twist on the reserv... and you defntly don't want that!

If you deploy your reserve high enough (1600ft) a line twist or two shouldn't be much trouble.

To use the RSL or not to use the RSL is your decision, but be sure you have all the facts before you make that decision.

-
Jim


MarkM  (C 35089)

Jul 27, 2002, 11:23 PM
Post #9 of 31 (3751 views)
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Re: [1383] RSL - yes or no? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
He's reason was that after a a spining cannopy mal
if the reserv will open too quickly like with an RSL
that will resalt in a line twist on the reserv...
and you defntly don't want that!

Don't think I've heard of that as a problem before.

RSL's aren't just a student tool, I know of plenty of experienced skydivers that use them. I wouldn't recommend to use one or not, it's a personal choice and there are people here better qualified to go over the details. Do a search and you'll probably find tons of threads on them.


jerm  (D 23994)

Jul 28, 2002, 7:06 AM
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Re: [Jimbo] RSL - yes or no? [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
>He's reason was that after a a spinning canopy mal if the reserve will open quickly

Uh. Reserves are supposed to open quickly. As a matter of fact I believe that all reserves certified for use in the US are required to open in 300 ft or less. This is a good thing.

I think he meant that the reserve would open too soon after cutting away into a possibly very unstable/spinning/etc body position -- the idea being that you should give yourelf a chance to get more stable before deploying the reserve.

Do i agree with that? Dunno, if i'm at 500 ft cutting away from a spinning mal i'd rather deploy unstable than spend the rest of my life trying to get stable.. OTOH, I'd like to have the choice, and messing with/deciding about an RSL is not what i want occupying my attention when the fit hits the shan, Also, i fly a topmounted camera, which is something awfully big to interfere with an unstable reserve deployment. I don't currently jump an RSL.


Blue skies
-jerm


Premier billvon  (D 16479)
Moderator
Jul 28, 2002, 11:28 AM
Post #11 of 31 (3723 views)
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Re: [1383] RSL - yes or no? [In reply to] Can't Post

>But my rigger recommended aganiest RSL and I wanted your
>opeinion on that.

For normal skydiving (solo, freefly, RW) I recommend use of an RSL at least until you have your first cutaway. At that point you will be able to make a much more informed decision. They have saved a lot of lives - often, the lives they save are people who cut away too low and then "try to get stable" before opening their reserves.


Jessica  (B 25202)

Jul 28, 2002, 4:02 PM
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Re: [billvon] RSL - yes or no? [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
For normal skydiving (solo, freefly, RW) I recommend use of an RSL at least until you have your first cutaway.

Interesting. After my cutaway, I decided I would use an RSL as long as I was jumping non-ellipticals at light loadings. Which may be forever. I know from experience that the reserve handle can be really hard to find when the shit hits the fan.

Just today at the dropzone a guy was talking about his cutaway the day before, where, under a spinning main, he put his hand on the cutaway pad immediately, but couldn't find the reserve handle for several long moments.

In any case, I agree with Bill.


AndyMan  (D 25698)

Jul 28, 2002, 10:27 PM
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Re: [1383] RSL - yes or no? [In reply to] Can't Post

There's a very short list of reasons to not wear an RSL.

1) if you're jumping video gear, you might not want one. This is debatable.
2) if you're jumping a highly loaded canopy prone to visceous spins, you might not want one. This is again, debatable.

If you don't fit into either 1) or 2), then the argument becomes really quite simple.

Unless your going to be loading your canopy at a high wingloading (and I don't think you are), cutting away from a spining mal should be relatively striaght forward, as the spin probably isn't going that fast.

_Am


christoofar  (A 40633)

Jul 29, 2002, 10:01 AM
Post #14 of 31 (3622 views)
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Re: [1383] RSL - yes or no? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
I got my rig like my rigger recommended whitout RSL
but now I'm not sure. some help please.

My AFF instructor went through the whole RSL debate hoopla with us prior to our first solo jump, mostly to emphasize the importance for GOOD BODY POSITION on opening. If I remember correctly, this is the common debate/arguments/points about RSLs:

Camera jumpers should disconnect their RSLs or not have them on their rigs. Camera jumps need stability on opening, the complexity of the helmet along with the RSL brings the level of confusion too high.

CReW dogs should never have RSLs on (if they are installed they should be disconnected). The need for seperation after cutaway is very important. RSLs can make CRW malfunctions deadly.

Tandems and AFF students must always wear RSLs and have them on. This makes obvious sense. The reserve needs to get out as quickly as possible and these jumps are almost always in the box position, it's a no-brainer.

The debate starts to come in after you get off student status. RSL (or Steven's Assist, if you still call it that) is an ancilliary BACKUP device. Some people think that the RSL complicates malfunctions and rightly so, others think that it is important to have to get the reserve out as quickly as possible, and rightly so.

Also... in a very, very, very rare circumstance the RSL actually does complicate your emergency procedures. It has been mentioned before that a premature riser seperation (on the side with the RSL) due to fatigue in the risers, links, or partial release of the cutaway cable can contribute to a pretty nasty malfunction where you have a malfunctioning main still over your head as the reserve system deploys.

Spinning malfunctions are also bad if you have an RSL on... if you chop in a high spin you are raising your chances for a reserve mal as well and you will have to clear it, if possible. If there is plenty of alti, I definately want to use some of it to get as stable as I can before I whip it out.

By now you can tell I am with the "need to deploy stable" crowd. I don't do low pulls, and I have pulled silver before so I'm very comfortable with going for the handles the next time it comes. I have set a personal rule to chop high enough to stabilize to get me a perfect reserve opening as possible and live with the resulting canopy.

Don't ever depend on the RSL or AAD to save your life. Like condoms, they can break or might not work out as expected. They are merely backup devices and are subject to malfunction. In additon, if you have these devices in your rig, you should know how to use them and how they may change your emergency procedures (i.e. inadvertent Cypres fire, riser seperation, etc) and MEMORIZE them.

Skydiving requires your brain, your body, and your equipment to be in working order before you jump. If it "doesn't feel right" before you get on that load, don't do it!

Hopefully this covers most of the RSL topic. Tongue


(This post was edited by christoofar on Jul 29, 2002, 2:15 PM)


Zennie

Jul 29, 2002, 10:32 AM
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Re: [1383] RSL - yes or no? [In reply to] Can't Post

Oh God, not again....

Shocked


flyhi  (D License)

Jul 29, 2002, 10:59 AM
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Re: [1383] RSL - yes or no? [In reply to] Can't Post

No. I jump a Vegeance loaded at 1.6. I don't want my reserve deploying after I chop a wildly spinning main away from a position flat on my back. Hasn't happened yet, but you never no.

And, I agree with Zennie.


christoofar  (A 40633)

Jul 29, 2002, 11:41 AM
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Re: [Zennie] RSL - yes or no? [In reply to] Can't Post

The RSL debate has been pretty much been debated out to its farthest extreme, hasn't it? Wink


Premier billvon  (D 16479)
Moderator
Jul 29, 2002, 12:46 PM
Post #18 of 31 (3569 views)
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Re: [christoofar] RSL - yes or no? [In reply to] Can't Post

>I am with the "need to deploy stable" crowd.

That need is often overstated. Reserve systems are designed to deploy while unstable; one manufacturer (Jumpshack) actually recommends deploying the reserve while belly-to-earth. A head-high position, such as you would get immediately after a normal cutaway, is recommended if possible. Note that this is exactly the type of opening an RSL gives you from most cutaways.

>I have set a personal rule to chop high enough to stabilize to get >me a perfect reserve opening as possible and live with the resulting
> canopy.

Have you tried this? Getting stable from a low airspeed unstable position is not something most skydivers have any experience with; I would recommend you actually do it before deciding you can do it in X feet - since it taking X+200 feet could well be fatal, and that's just one more second.


christoofar  (A 40633)

Jul 29, 2002, 1:34 PM
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Re: [billvon] RSL - yes or no? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Have you tried this? Getting stable from a low airspeed unstable position is not something most skydivers have any experience with; I would recommend you actually do it before deciding you can do it in X feet - since it taking X+200 feet could well be fatal, and that's just one more second.

When you boil both sides down... all you get is: "There are no absolutes when it comes to using RSLs."

I wouldn't go into BASE just to improve my reserve-opening capabilities, nor do I want to deploy upside down or in a nasty spin and trade one bad mal for another (and possibly worse) one.

I'm sure if all DZs had hot air balloons we could work on low airspeed recovery skills (Yay, Rantoul!). Wink

I'm perfectly happy jumping sans-RSL, or with one turned on or off. Doesn't make a hill 'o beans difference to me. I also feel the exact same way about AAD. They have their pros and cons. It's a personal decision and no one is going to make this decision for me.

I do think one "safety" item that should be looked at more, aside from RSLs, is the need for hard housings. I feel these aren't being emphasized enough; aside from a piece Parachutist did on it last year.

With all these high performance canopies out there, severe line twists and even riser twists make chopping a very difficult task, which would make the RSL a moot point, really.

I am getting hard housings as soon as I can afford to in addition to a new CYPRES on my J1.


Premier billvon  (D 16479)
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Jul 29, 2002, 1:53 PM
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Re: [christoofar] RSL - yes or no? [In reply to] Can't Post

>I wouldn't go into BASE just to improve my reserve-opening
>capabilities . . . .

I would agree, since the two (opening a reserve after a cutaway and doing a BASE jump) aren't that similar, except perhaps for the pack job.

>nor do I want to deploy upside down or in a nasty spin and trade one
> bad mal for another (and possibly worse) one.

Again, I agree. However, I would still do an intentional cutaway before deciding that you can get stable in X feet. Make it an easy one - just sit in the harness and chop the "main", so you just have to roll to be belly to earth. I was suprised at how long it took me the first time I tried it - we take it for granted that our freefall skills will work at all airspeeds, and they definitely don't.


christoofar  (A 40633)

Jul 29, 2002, 3:23 PM
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Re: [billvon] RSL - yes or no? [In reply to] Can't Post

You said it, B!

I am definately interested in doing an intentional. However, I'm not at the required number of jumps yet for one and San Marcos doesn't have an intentional rig with two mains, so I'd have to do it elsewhere. But, it's definately on my todo list!

(DISCLAIMER... never "fake" a mal or intentionally cutaway on your own rig)


Iflyme  (B 4421)

Jul 30, 2002, 3:07 PM
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Re: [jerm] RSL - yes or no? [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
if i'm at 500 ft cutting away from a spinning mal
If you're at 500 feet and cutting away, I'd say maybe you waited a little too long...

anyway, I won't answer the RSL question on the grounds that 1/2 of everyone will disagree !


AndyMan  (D 25698)

Jul 30, 2002, 5:13 PM
Post #23 of 31 (3434 views)
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Re: [Iflyme] RSL - yes or no? [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
If you're at 500 feet and cutting away, I'd say maybe you waited a little too long...

Not necesarily. I toggle-turned myself into line twists at 900 feet a few weeks ago. I nearly chopped, but could feel the canopy planing out. I was flying straight by 700 feet. I landed 8 feet from taget center. Blush

_Am


jerm  (D 23994)

Jul 31, 2002, 4:55 AM
Post #24 of 31 (3399 views)
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Re: [Iflyme] RSL - yes or no? [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
If you're at 500 feet and cutting away, I'd say maybe you waited a little too long...

heh... i had a disclaimer to that effect originally, but took it out.. oops.

Nevermind how you got to needing to cut away at 500ft (hey, shit happens)... if you DID have to chop at 500ft, if the rsl could beat your reserve pull by a a second, wouldn't you like to have that second on your side?

real world: 2 weekends ago a pair was going to land a 2stack and somewhere low -- really low, they entangled... the jumper that chopped was under a full reserve at treetop level... i dunno if she had an RSL or not, but shit can certainly happen low.


Premier Remster  (C License)

Jul 31, 2002, 5:03 AM
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Re: [jerm] RSL - yes or no? [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
real world: 2 weekends ago a pair was going to land a 2stack and somewhere low -- really low, they entangled... the jumper that chopped was under a full reserve at treetop level... i dunno if she had an RSL or not, but shit can certainly happen low.

since we're already in the world of speculation, doing CReW with an RSL would have been very very stupid. Shit can in deed happen low, but expecting an RSL to help in a canopy wrap or entanglement is inviting the reaper.


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