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2-way sequential canopy?

 

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Calle  (D 15140)

Sep 13, 2005, 11:11 AM
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2-way sequential canopy? Can't Post

Is it just the lightning, or is there any other choice, really? What wingloading and trim do you think will be the best?


dragon2  (D 101989)

Sep 13, 2005, 12:22 PM
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Re: [Calle] 2-way sequential canopy? [In reply to] Can't Post

If you're just going to do the occasional crw jump a ot of canopies will work. For serious stuff, look at what the people you're going to jump with have.
We have a lot of lightnings at our dz, but also a couple hybrid triathlons and a couple competition triathlons. Plus some diamants if the belgian guys come over Wink The hybrid tri's open slower and have more flare than the "real" crw chutes, but the slower openings aren't always a good thing of course. They also have less reinforcing.

Most crw people at our dz jump a wl of 1:1.3-1.4 but our national team used to jump at close to 1:2.0.


(This post was edited by dragon2 on Sep 13, 2005, 12:24 PM)


Calle  (D 15140)

Sep 13, 2005, 12:44 PM
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Re: [dragon2] 2-way sequential canopy? [In reply to] Can't Post

We are considering a quite serious team, that will jump the next least 3 years. So hybrid canopies with nice flare is not a priority...
What type of crw are you talking about? bigway?
I haven`t seen that many sequential teams at all, only rotations. And those guys like to go fast with a loading of 1.9. Is it the same with 2-way sequential? The faster the better? (to a certain limit of course).


chuckbrown  (D 19538)

Sep 13, 2005, 12:49 PM
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Re: [dragon2] 2-way sequential canopy? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
The hybrid tri's open slower and have more flare than the "real" crw chutes, but the slower openings aren't always a good thing of course.

Put a mesh slider on a hybrid Triathlon if you want fast openings.


dragon2  (D 101989)

Sep 13, 2005, 2:39 PM
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Re: [Calle] 2-way sequential canopy? [In reply to] Can't Post

Sorry, no clue. Our national team was a rotation team but did sequential on the big competitions too (without training... CrazyLaugh) with the same rotation shortlined tri's (120 and 99).

I would go for sequential trim I suppose, and go either with lightnings or comp tri's. Some of the top teams jump tri's now. But if you want in on a bigway usually you need a lightning...

Stay away from the diamants/ruby's though is my opinion Wink They REALLY land like crap Crazy

I like the 2 way event, maybe I'll pick up crw again... Smile


(This post was edited by dragon2 on Sep 13, 2005, 3:05 PM)


homer  (C 35146)

Sep 13, 2005, 2:55 PM
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Re: [Calle] 2-way sequential canopy? [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
We are considering a quite serious team, that will jump the next least 3 years.

From what I have learned in my short time doing CRW a weekend CRW jump or two you can use any mix of the CRW specific canopies. Different types of canopies fly differently, for example, a Lightning has a steeper glide verses the flatter flying Triathalon and Eagle. So, mixing the different types of canopies for fun jumps is just that fun but a bit more work.

You say your interested in forming a team I suggest you both get the same type of canopy. I have a lightning myself as it seams to be what most CRW dogs are using these days. The wing loading is important as well so you both want to get canopies that will give you the same or close to the same wing loading. I know PD will make custom sized Lightning upon request.

I can't help you on specifics with sequential as I'm limited to having only done rotations and interested in Big way formations.


Canuck

Sep 13, 2005, 3:02 PM
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Re: [Calle] 2-way sequential canopy? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Is it just the lightning, or is there any other choice, really? What wingloading and trim do you think will be the best?

The Canadian national team uses competition Triathalon 135s loaded in the 1.5:1 range for both 2-way and 4-way sequential. I gather that if they were going to have canopies specific for the 2-way event they would be smaller - maybe even the Tri 99s.

Canuck


BillyVance  (D 18895)

Sep 13, 2005, 7:00 PM
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Re: [Canuck] 2-way sequential canopy? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
I gather that if they were going to have canopies specific for the 2-way event they would be smaller - maybe even the Tri 99s.

Canuck

If there are still any Tri 99's in use... Aerodyne stopped making that size several years ago, I believe. The Tri 120 is the smallest they've offered for some time now.


Canuck

Sep 13, 2005, 8:01 PM
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Re: [BillyVance] 2-way sequential canopy? [In reply to] Can't Post

They still show the 99 as being available on their website, which I believe is fairly up do date...

Canuck


Calle  (D 15140)

Sep 13, 2005, 10:47 PM
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Re: [homer] 2-way sequential canopy? [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
You say your interested in forming a team I suggest you both get the same type of canopy. I have a lightning myself as it seams to be what most CRW dogs are using these days. The wing loading is important as well so you both want to get canopies that will give you the same or close to the same wing loading.

A Come on! I dont mean to be an ass right now, but I think anybody who has done more than one crw or any type of jump realise that too. Of course we will have the same type of canopies and wingloading.

I`ve heard that the triathlon is better for rotations than sequential. Is that true?

Pls, anybody who has experience from different canopies answer.


plastic  (D 10050)

Sep 14, 2005, 1:49 AM
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Re: [Calle] 2-way sequential canopy? [In reply to] Can't Post

The us sequential team are using the new pd 106 crw canopy that is not for sale to the general public as yet, so i am told.

The russian team (denis dodonov was coaching us this summer) who are world champions in rotation (since 1998) and now 8-way all use triathlons, i believe 120 for 8-way and 99 for rotation. The sequential team who won bronze at the world meet also use triathlons but i am not sure what size but probably 120.

Previously when i was on uk sequential team we used the diamant 160 but they are now considered too big and even the french seq team downsized to the rubis (previously the rubis was used for rotation and 8-way, was about 140 size).

Hope this helps.

plastic


(This post was edited by plastic on Sep 14, 2005, 1:53 AM)


TVPB  (F 666)

Sep 14, 2005, 4:14 AM
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Re: [Calle] 2-way sequential canopy? [In reply to] Can't Post

Hopefully 2 way will bring MORE competitors into the sport. Make sure you get high quality coaching from the beginning as you will progress a lot faster. The sequential guys on both sides of the USA will be able to help as well as France, Russia, Canada, etc.

Check out the results from past World Meets -> CLICK HERE FOR WORLD MEET RESULTS. Then contact the teams and find out what they were using exactly (pls feed this info back to me if you go through the effort as I would like to update my web site).

In Rotations last year, 1st & 2nd = Triathlon, 3rd = Rubis, 4th = Lightnings), 5th = New PD CRW canopy (Switchblade), etc.

In sequential: 1st = New PD CRW canopy (Switchblade), 2nd = Rubis, 3rd = Triathlons, etc.

Regarding the above results and canopies:

The Yanks trained hard for sequential and won using the new PD's. They did stuff all Rotations training jumps which explained their 5th placing (he he - it was good to beat them this year Wink). The US team at France 2003 used the new PD's for rotations and got silver with very few training jumps. Remember that the 2003 team consisted of LONG TIME competitors who had jumped together for MANY years and had won world meets before. i.e. they could get a high placing jumping clapped out 500 square foot tandem canopies if they so desired. But there feedback seemed pretty positive overall and they were the guys who had a huge input into the design.

Do PD sell the new canopy??? You need to talk to the factory. If you are a world class CRW competitor, then they will sell you the canopy on the following proviso's: it is NOT, I repeat, NOT a fully tested canopy according to PD's normal exacting standards - they have not and by the sounds of things will not release the canopy to the general market. Hence, YOU have to accept that what you are jumping is experimental. They currently do not have the resources to back the sale up with R&D. They will provide normal service repairs (lines, damage, etc) but probably no design/modification work. No off the shelf canopies either, i.e. you have to pay for and order your gear and wait for it to arrive. THIS IS WHAT I THINK - IT MAY BE TOTALLY INCORRECT - CHECK WITH PD. And don't mention my name. Wink

My opinion on the Russians: they are awesome at what they do. When it comes to slam, bam, thank you mam CRW, they are the shit. They prove again and again that there is no better at the moment. And again, I think you could put them under roundies and they would still go close to winning. But they are not as good or successful at sequential at this time. Look at the results. They've won most Rots, are dominating in 8 way, and can only manage 3rd's in sequential. I think this is more to do with style than canopies. The French have dominated sequential for a long time and the yanks are now starting to take control. This to me was more a function of their training programs and team selection techniques, than their choice of canopy. They have a natural affiliation with the Rubis because. . . .it. . . . is . . .manufactured in France. But they have been jumping Tri's and the new PD and I suspect they like what they see.

Canopy choice also depends on the level of skill and achievement of your team. We achieved 4th place in Rots in 2004 using clapped out old Lightning 143's and 126's. Main reason was cost and several team members were nursing bodies that were not too keen on those small canopies. The Canadian sequ team of a few years ago did very well using Lightnings too. They were very skilled at their craft.

Lightnings are a good all round canopy and until your skill level is such that you are a world class CRW jumper, they will do just fine for competition. It is technique that will get you to ~8 points in 4 way sequ and ~17 points in rots. The canopy is less important at this stage. Trust me - I know. I've been there for a number of years. If you are fighting for a spot in the top 3 to 5 in the world, then the canopy comes into play. Yep - you will get the argument that you should start with the best possible gear first and I agree. But it will not help you one iota if your technique is sub standard. Also, different people have different techniques and although one canopy may be brilliant for one team, it may not necessarily suit another.

If you want to spend big and buy new immediately, talk to the USA sequ guys - they have the jump numbers and experience to give you more info. The CA team that won the sequ several years ago used express as far as I know and the current mob use the new PD.

Calle - you should also talk to the Swedish guys. They are a great bunch of CRW heads and they are doing well in Rots now using Tri's. When I saw them in Croatia for WM2004. they were considering all options (the top two for them were Tri's and the new PD).

Check out http://ozcrw.tripod.com/. If you can give ANY feedback, please do so. I hope you find it useful.

p.s. I have purchased 6 Tri's because I believe they are a better comp CRW canopy than our lightnings and I wanted to test them out. I will also be looking at getting some of the new PD canopies in next time I have a crack at the world meet (2008 sequential for me).


plastic  (D 10050)

Sep 14, 2005, 6:05 AM
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Re: [TVPB] 2-way sequential canopy? [In reply to] Can't Post

The russians only finished 3rd at the last world meet! most people would be very pleased to reach this very high standard. although i do see your point.

this is from them not even having a sequential team compete in 1998. keep an eye on them they are working hard on sequential at the moment and expect to see them continue to improve.

as 2-way is new at world level the scores will be interesting at the world cup in eloy.

plastic


Calle  (D 15140)

Sep 14, 2005, 9:42 AM
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Re: [TVPB] 2-way sequential canopy? [In reply to] Can't Post

Thanks TVPB!

Our rotation team is really skilled, but sequentials is not their cup of tea.

I think we will go for regular lightnings next year, and after some hundreds of jumps we`ll buy faster canopies. Maybe the switchblade is avavible for everyone then.

Maybe I`ll see you in 2007!

Cheers


dragon2  (D 101989)

Sep 14, 2005, 10:28 AM
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Re: [TVPB] 2-way sequential canopy? [In reply to] Can't Post

Who makes the french crw canopies anyway? Are they still made, and if they are, why do they (apperantly) still only come in "big" sizes?


Gadget  (D 20099)

Sep 14, 2005, 12:27 PM
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Re: [dragon2] 2-way sequential canopy? [In reply to] Can't Post

The diamands/rubies are made by parachuteshop. a small manufactor in Besancon France.I don't know if they are still made.And Saskia only because you can't land them that doesn't mean they are badWink


dragon2  (D 101989)

Sep 14, 2005, 12:31 PM
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Re: [Gadget] 2-way sequential canopy? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
The diamands/rubies are made by parachuteshop. a small manufactor in Besancon France.I don't know if they are still made.And Saskia only because you can't land them that doesn't mean they are badWink

LOL

You try landing a mucho big canopy like that with loads of lead on too Crazy I liked my lightning 126 much better thanx Laugh

And even you guys are jumping tri's and lightnings now, right?


kleggo  (D 8292)

Sep 14, 2005, 1:46 PM
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Re: [TVPB] 2-way sequential canopy? [In reply to] Can't Post

a few comments and clarifications to Tom's as-usual eloquent posting, he must type far better than i do to communicate so well........

In reply to:
Hopefully 2 way will bring MORE competitors into the sport.

__________________________________________________

Agreed. I think that to truly grow the sport, there needs to be a 2 way category that incentivises new / intermediate jumpers to buy gear / train and compete. Perhaps a category where you have one experienced pilot and one beginner / intermediate pilot that do not have to compete against the experts.
I know that in my recent experience at the US Nationals, i had a great time doing 2 way with an intermediate level jumper. We both felt it was a fun learning experience.
__________________________________________________


Do PD sell the new canopy??? You need to talk to the factory. If you are a world class CRW competitor, then they will sell you the canopy on the following proviso's: it is NOT, I repeat, NOT a fully tested canopy according to PD's normal exacting standards - they have not and by the sounds of things will not release the canopy to the general market. Hence, YOU have to accept that what you are jumping is experimental. They currently do not have the resources to back the sale up with R&D. They will provide normal service repairs (lines, damage, etc) but probably no design/modification work. No off the shelf canopies either, i.e. you have to pay for and order your gear and wait for it to arrive. THIS IS WHAT I THINK - IT MAY BE TOTALLY INCORRECT - CHECK WITH PD.
________________________________________________
You seem to have your finger firmly on the pulse of the situation. It is my understanding that the canopies are not for sale to anyone at any price.
but
PD, as with many cutting edge companies is often looking for "outside consultants" to refine their design. I have no idea if they are looking for additional consultants.
And i too must say
THIS IS WHAT I THINK - IT MAY BE TOTALLY INCORRECT - CHECK WITH PD.

They do treat the 107's and smaller versions as non-production hardware. The canopies i was jumping are clearly marked EXPERIMENTAL on the data panel.
__________________________________________________

Yep - you will get the argument that you should start with the best possible gear first and I agree. But it will not help you one iota if your technique is sub standard.
_________________________________________________
Once again i am forced to say me too.
I think that you will be well served by training / learning / growing while jumping Lightnings loaded at
1.6 lb/ft^2 or greater. Their relatively steep angle of attack appears to work well for sequential teams. Keeping the cells inflated during canopy / body contact is a very good thing.

_________________________________________________
If you want to spend big and buy new immediately, talk to the USA sequ guys - they have the jump numbers and experience to give you more info. The CA team that won the sequ several years ago used express as far as I know and the current mob use the new PD.
______________________________________________

Just to clarify, Clean Air the current US and World Champion Sequential team are jumping PD canopies.
Redline, the CA mob, and former World Record Holders and Champions have jumped Expresses in the past. They are now jumping their own experimental canopies that i can't tell you about. Wink

Please try to attend the CF world record this November in Lake Wales Florida. you will have the opportunity to meet those pilots that Tom refers to that have had significant input on PD's CReW canopies.
_________________________________________________

.
Check out http://ozcrw.tripod.com/. If you can give ANY feedback, please do so. I hope you find it useful.

_________________________________________________

Reading the info at this site is well worth your time.
I made it required reading for our 2 rotation virgins prior to starting practice for this year.

be safe

kleggo


TVPB  (F 666)

Sep 14, 2005, 9:34 PM
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Re: [dragon2] 2-way sequential canopy? [In reply to] Can't Post

Ah ha, it just so happens that . . . . . .

the link to manufacturers is at:

http://ozcrw.tripod.com/links.htm#CRWEquipRig


TVPB  (F 666)

Sep 14, 2005, 9:36 PM
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Re: [kleggo] 2-way sequential canopy? [In reply to] Can't Post

Blush

Thanks for the compliments Kleggo.

Blush

Where do I send the money and what currency would you prefer??? Wink


Gadget  (D 20099)

Sep 15, 2005, 12:36 AM
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Re: [dragon2] 2-way sequential canopy? [In reply to] Can't Post

We have to.Lightnings because everybody else is jumping them and triathlon's because we happen to do some freefall now and then ( and crw afterwarts)


plastic  (D 10050)

Sep 15, 2005, 1:37 AM
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Re: [dragon2] 2-way sequential canopy? [In reply to] Can't Post

After talking to vincent arnoux (i think this is how you spell his name) he told me that the diamant is manufactured in sizes other than 160 (our former seq team coach vincent ferrer one of the designers of the diamant had a diamant 210), but the 160 seems to be the only one that lands and flies properly.

they are not a production canopy but are made to order.

plastic


plastic  (D 10050)

Sep 15, 2005, 3:42 AM
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Re: [Calle] 2-way sequential canopy? [In reply to] Can't Post

Calle,

I seem to remember that you had a sequential team in sweden because my old team mate alan fielding was coaching them. He said they were progressing really well until a girl on the team had a bad landing and broke her leg.

Does this team still jump?

plastic


plastic  (D 10050)

Sep 15, 2005, 3:45 AM
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Re: [Canuck] 2-way sequential canopy? [In reply to] Can't Post

What happened to the canadian team? last time i saw them was spain 2001.

Then they were jumping lightning 126's if they are jumping triathlons now what happened to the lightnings?

does lyle still do crw?

plastic


TVPB  (F 666)

Sep 15, 2005, 4:40 AM
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Re: [plastic] 2-way sequential canopy? [In reply to] Can't Post

 

Picture of Diamant 160

That canopy was a prototype of 1996 vintage, The Froggies sent us canopies with inbuilt turns and lots of other little problems, and they ended up refining until they achieved a better canopy by the time that world meet came around.

Someone from our team compared a Diamant to a Lightning. The Diamant 160 is a very similar size to the Lightning 143. I did some of my early jumps on the Diamant 210. A good training canopy.

Yes, they are tricker to land but not that bad. Pick your conditions, come in with some speed, transition from "descent/speed build up" to planing, and it is OK.


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