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chasing aff students below our hard deck

 

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livenletfly  (D 28096)

Sep 10, 2005, 7:36 PM
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chasing aff students below our hard deck Can't Post

being a new affI i try to make my decisions on the ground not at 2000 ft and terminal.
so with that being said, what situations would cause you if any to chase a student below 2000 ft. student having an aad and trained in ep's i dont see a logical reason to do so. i do see an emotional reason, that being if your in that situation as an affI you fucked up. yes it does happen, but why put your life dangerously on the line when a student is trained and has back up equiptment?
im very interested in actual accounts and the reasons that put you and your student in that situation, as well as the thought process that led to the decision to blow threw the instructors hardeck.
thanks for helping me learn


Premier slotperfect  (D 13014)

Sep 11, 2005, 1:46 AM
Post #2 of 65 (3817 views)
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Re: [livenletfly] chasing aff students below our hard deck [In reply to] Can't Post

The skydive is over at 2000 feet for me.

Student hard deck is 3500 feet (Instructors are to have the student deployed by then).


tombuch  (D 8514)

Sep 11, 2005, 4:24 AM
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Re: [livenletfly] chasing aff students below our hard deck [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
so with that being said, what situations would cause you if any to chase a student below 2000 ft.

None.

I may loose track of altitude at some point and make the mistake of chasing a student below 2,000, but it will not be by decision. There is no reason to chase below the hard deck. Ever.

One of the last ways i have to tell my student to pull is to do so myself.

Both the student and I have AAD's set to fire at the same altitude, so chasing lower risks a reserve entanglement with the student.

It's not my job to go lower than 2,000 feet. The student knows that and has accepted that limitation.

.


aironscott

Sep 11, 2005, 1:57 PM
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Re: [livenletfly] chasing aff students below our hard deck [In reply to] Can't Post

I would like to back up John and Tom and their opinions on this subject. My job is done at 2000'.
As a new AFF/I you have a lot of learning to do over the next couple of hundred of jumps. Please don't ever think that you can fix everything. You are not (nor is anyone else) superman. That being said if I find myself in a situation where I may need to chase someone down to 2000' I have not my job as an AFF instructor very well. But sometimes shit happens.
Aaron


apoil  (D License)

Sep 11, 2005, 4:59 PM
Post #5 of 65 (3700 views)
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Re: [aironscott] chasing aff students below our hard deck [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
My job is done at 2000'.

Here's exactly what I teach in my first jump course.
Before concluding the teaching of the freefall portion of instruction, after reviewing all hand signals and going over freefall emergencies, I put on the practice harness, or rig, or whatever they have been using, and I say: "Here is the very last signal I can give you". And I throw the pilot chute.

If you see me deploy, I strongly recommend you do likewise.
My license requires that I deploy by 2000'. Below that point, I am more of a danger to you than a help, particularly your AAD getting set to fire in a few more seconds. I have never had to do that, and I never expect to. If it is necessary, I will probably land and be fired, because I didn't get my job done. But you need to recognize the significance of what it means if you see me deploy in front of you.

[aside:]
I consider it my job is to make sure my student has an open canopy by 3000' the lowest (student hard deck).
My preferred method of accomplishing this is to train them to pull for themselves and give them all the assistance they may require to accomplish that. I have a plan B which is to do it for them. Below 3000' we are talking about plans C, D, etc. To endanger myself further by going lower than that is not acceptable.


livenletfly  (D 28096)

Sep 11, 2005, 9:43 PM
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Re: [tombuch] chasing aff students below our hard deck [In reply to] Can't Post

thanks tom, your info means alot to me. i really love doing aff but i know i have alot to learn. today i had a humbling experience on a reserve side level 1. alot can and will go wrong, even with a non release sd.
thanks again


Premier GravityGirl  (D 18897)

Sep 11, 2005, 11:14 PM
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Re: [livenletfly] chasing aff students below our hard deck [In reply to] Can't Post

Two of the questions I like to review with every student before we skydive are:

What will you do if you see me pull?

Who is ultimately responsible for your life on this skydive?


Premier SkymonkeyONE  (D 12501)

Sep 14, 2005, 11:08 AM
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Re: [GravityGirl] chasing aff students below our hard deck [In reply to] Can't Post

Exactly correct, Bonnie.


Premier Tonto  (D 515)
Moderator
Sep 16, 2005, 3:44 AM
Post #9 of 65 (3305 views)
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Re: [livenletfly] chasing aff students below our hard deck [In reply to] Can't Post

I'm done at 2000ft.

I've done 1800 AFF dives now, and I've never had the need to go below 3500ft. As someone said before, we are not superhuman. There are 1000's of variables that can present themselves in a very narrow time frame. Know your options and your timeframe. Prevention is better than cure.

t


lug  (D License)

Sep 17, 2005, 3:14 PM
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Re: [livenletfly] chasing aff students below our hard deck [In reply to] Can't Post

I fallow the BSR. My license is "D" so the container need to be open at minimum of 2000' I don't care who the student is. If I am not altitude aware and I bust 2K, my bad, so again if I am altitude aware I am pulling the pin at 2k.

Train you students will.


Hooknswoop  (D License)

Sep 17, 2005, 4:08 PM
Post #11 of 65 (3240 views)
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Re: [livenletfly] chasing aff students below our hard deck [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
what situations would cause you if any to chase a student below 2000 ft.

If the student didn't have an open canopy. My job as an AFFI was to train the student, on the ground and int he air, and ensure they deployed a canopy. I never had to chase one low because I never let them get that low.

If you cannot catch and deploy your student, don't do AFF.

My opinion only, a lot of people will disagree. I never wanted to land, walk up to Johnny's parents and tell them their son was dead because I failed at my job. I took it very serious.

An AFFI is not an observer, if you just want to observe, be a coach.

Derek


apoil  (D License)

Sep 19, 2005, 7:41 PM
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Re: [Hooknswoop] chasing aff students below our hard deck [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:

If the student didn't have an open canopy. My job as an AFFI was to train the student, on the ground and int he air, and ensure they deployed a canopy. I never had to chase one low because I never let them get that low.

If you cannot catch and deploy your student, don't do AFF.

My opinion only, a lot of people will disagree. I never wanted to land, walk up to Johnny's parents and tell them their son was dead because I failed at my job. I took it very serious.

An AFFI is not an observer, if you just want to observe, be a coach.

While at first blush it looks like you are saying the same thing as the rest of the instructors here, you should realize that that mental attitude could potentially put you and your student in danger should you one day fail to get your job done I'm not saying that's at all likely. But it does happen sometimes, even to very seasoned instructors.

Below 2 grand, with modern AAD technology, their chances of survival are much higher if a zealous instructor, determined not to let one get away, doesn't save his own sorry ass.


Hooknswoop  (D License)

Sep 19, 2005, 7:52 PM
Post #13 of 65 (3152 views)
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Re: [apoil] chasing aff students below our hard deck [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
Below 2 grand, with modern AAD technology, their chances of survival are much higher if a zealous instructor, determined not to let one get away, doesn't save his own sorry ass.

You are probably right. Well, not probably, you are right.

Derek


NoShitThereIWas  (D 25347)

Oct 6, 2005, 8:14 PM
Post #14 of 65 (2944 views)
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Re: [livenletfly] chasing aff students below our hard deck [In reply to] Can't Post

I make it very clear to my students that I will do everything in my power to be there for them on the skydive but I also make it clear to them that shit can happen. It is important for them to know that although they are under our supervision and it is our job to help them make a safe skydive, their life is their responsibility and I also make it clear that when push comes to shove, my life is mine. I have a daughter to come home to at night after work and I let them know that my plan is to go home. I spend the time I feel is necessary to train them to do a good job on the ground and hope they will perform well in the air but if not, my biggest hope is that they walk away with their pull priorities. Since my decision altitude to cut away is still 2,500', I do not like opening below that under many circumstances (WFFC is one exception).
I have not had a student get below 4,600 feet (was the lowest -- knock on wood) and I hope I never have to. However, my mind is made up that I will chase a student to 2,000 feet. When my dytter flatlines, at 2 grand, my parachute opens. Hopefully I will never be in a position like that, but it does no good to chase a student any lower than that and endanger your own life: case in point was the AFFI who went in trying to rescue his student after a skydive gone wrong. The instructor died and the student lived. I hate to say it but if they have not pulled for themselves by 2K that is what the Cypres/Vigil is for, not my life.


Andy9o8  (D License)

Oct 7, 2005, 3:08 PM
Post #15 of 65 (2876 views)
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Re: chasing aff students below our hard deck [In reply to] Can't Post

Ive been watching this interesting thread, but havent posted (til now) because Im not an instructor & so I cant put myself in the shoes of those of you who are. I understand and respect those who say that they will stick to a certain hard deck if the student freezes, and trust the students AAD. I also understand instructors who feel that nobody forced them to become an AFFI, and if a student's in deep trouble they have a responsibility to try to get to him as long, and as low, as humanly possible. I guess my attitude is this:
If I were the student, I wouldn't want the instructor to endanger himself on my account by going way low.
If one of my kids were the student, and got into trouble, Id hope the instructor would take it down to Cypres fire if need be.
Flame away if you feel the need.


(This post was edited by Andy9o8 on Oct 7, 2005, 3:12 PM)


AFFI  (D 25538)

Oct 7, 2005, 4:08 PM
Post #16 of 65 (2866 views)
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Re: [Andy9o8] chasing aff students below our hard deck [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
, Id hope the instructor would take it down to Cypres fire if need be.
Flame away if you feel the need.

Cvpress fire...

If both Cypresses fire at the same time and the openings occour in close proximity?


Andy9o8  (D License)

Oct 8, 2005, 4:47 AM
Post #17 of 65 (2836 views)
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Re: [AFFI] chasing aff students below our hard deck [In reply to] Can't Post

I recognize that, Mykel; I'm just saying there are genuinely two sides to this issue, and it's reasonable to discuss both sides.


mark  (D 6108)

Oct 8, 2005, 5:37 AM
Post #18 of 65 (2833 views)
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Re: [Andy9o8] chasing aff students below our hard deck [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
If one of my kids were the student, and got into trouble, Id hope the instructor would take it down to Cypres fire if need be.

Three recent incidents like this resulted in a two-out situation for the student. In each case, the instructor's heart was in the right place, but his actions made the student's situation worse, not better.

The good news: the students survived in spite of their instructors.

Mark


Hooknswoop  (D License)

Oct 8, 2005, 6:17 AM
Post #19 of 65 (2831 views)
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Re: [mark] chasing aff students below our hard deck [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
Three recent incidents like this resulted in a two-out situation for the student. In each case, the instructor's heart was in the right place, but his actions made the student's situation worse, not better.

The good news: the students survived in spite of their instructors.

Why were the Instructors unable to catch the students in time?

Derek


apoil  (D License)

Oct 9, 2005, 6:07 PM
Post #20 of 65 (2774 views)
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Re: [Andy9o8] chasing aff students below our hard deck [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
I’ve been watching this interesting thread, but haven’t posted (til now) because I’m not an instructor & so I can’t put myself in the shoes of those of you who are. I understand and respect those who say that they will stick to a certain hard deck if the student freezes, and trust the student’s AAD.

Nobody said "trust the student's AAD".

My point was that with that student's AAD about to fire, and the realistic odds that it will, an instructor who has already fucked up just by being at that altitude without an open canopy above the student is unlikely to be of further service to the student, and is far more likely to increase the danger to both of them. You have to know when to save yourself.

Even if the student didn't have an AAD, I would still need to open my parachute above the hard deck.

In reply to:
I’d hope the instructor would take it down to Cypres fire if need be.
Flame away if you feel the need.

Because somehow you would prefer your child's corpse to be neatly wrapped up with his instructor's in both of their respective reserve canopies?


dperrotta  (D 18986)

Oct 9, 2005, 6:40 PM
Post #21 of 65 (2769 views)
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Re: [livenletfly] chasing aff students below our hard deck [In reply to] Can't Post

2000 ft . No question. End of story dennisPirate


Andy9o8  (D License)

Oct 9, 2005, 6:43 PM
Post #22 of 65 (2768 views)
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Re: [apoil] chasing aff students below our hard deck [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Because somehow you would prefer your child's corpse to be neatly wrapped up with his instructor's in both of their respective reserve canopies?

By all means disagree with me - I openly invited a debate of the issue. But I really think that kind of inflammatory language about "my child's corpse" was uncalled for. Perhaps not technically a personal attack, but it comes pretty close. I was posing a reasonable question, in reasonable language, and simply urging that both sides of the issue be discussed reasonably. Anyone wishing to do so will have my full attention.


Liemberg  (Student)

Oct 10, 2005, 1:17 AM
Post #23 of 65 (2753 views)
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Re: [Andy9o8] chasing aff students below our hard deck [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
I really think that kind of inflammatory language about "my child's corpse" was uncalled for.

I thought you said "Flame away"?

Anyway, the only instructor MY kid is still pissed off about is the one who pulled his ripcord @ 6000ft when they were slowly turning and my kid had a brainlock which made him forget what two stretched fingers ment... Smile

Any instructor that follows my kid into AAD land should seek other employment for two reasons:
1. F*&king up above 3500ft
2. F*&king up below 2000ft
Mad


Andy9o8  (D License)

Oct 10, 2005, 9:14 AM
Post #24 of 65 (2716 views)
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Re: [Liemberg] chasing aff students below our hard deck [In reply to] Can't Post

Fine, that settles it; shes going static line, like her old man did.

OK, no shes not.
Probably not.
A few more months till shes 18.
As her father, Ill just be glad once shes off student status.
I think.
I definitely need to think with my head and not my gut on this.
Maybe Ill get her some tunnel time before her FJC.


tdog  (D 28800)

Oct 10, 2005, 10:53 AM
Post #25 of 65 (2701 views)
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Re: [Andy9o8] chasing aff students below our hard deck [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Fine, that settles it; shes going static line, like her old man did.

OK, no shes not.
Probably not.
A few more months till shes 18.
As her father, Ill just be glad once shes off student status.
I think.
I definitely need to think with my head and not my gut on this.
Maybe Ill get her some tunnel time before her FJC.

It is rare to see an AFF student in the fatalities... And I see many AFF students jumping each weekend... The system may not be perfect, but I personally am more worried about the "landing of a perfectly good parachute." when I see people I know and love taking the program... Shocked


(This post was edited by tdog on Oct 10, 2005, 10:53 AM)


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