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pilot chute in tow question

 

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airricks  (D 32014)

Aug 20, 2005, 1:39 PM
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pilot chute in tow question Can't Post

This may be a dumb question but I was learning the preflight check last weekend on my level 5 and we were talking about how an uncocked pilot chute would result in a pilot chute in tow which lead to talking EPs (cut away or dont, just choose ahead of time). Personally I think that if anything is out there I would want to cut away and get rid of it before deploying the reserve, and I know the decision is something to discuss with my instructors, but my question is if there isnt enough drag to pull the main out of the bag then would there be enough drag to pull the risers away?

Just something I though about while watching the rain today, hopefully it will clear and I can do my level 6 tomorrow...Wink


airtwardo  (D License)

Aug 20, 2005, 1:45 PM
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if there isnt enough drag to pull the main out of the bag then would there be enough drag to pull the risers away?

Quote:

The concern is with the main deploying late..into the opening reserve.

But you had it right...
Discuss this with your Instructors!


airricks  (D 32014)

Aug 20, 2005, 2:00 PM
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Re: [airtwardo] pilot chute in tow question [In reply to] Can't Post

Thanks for the reply. I know that's why you would cutaway before deploying the reserve, but I guess what Im asking is...say I decide that Im going to cutaway a pilot chute in tow. If I pull the cutaway will the pilot chute have enough drag to pull the risers off since it didnt have enough drag to open the canopy or will I just have a released main still there....I hope that makes more sense.


FlyinseivLP2  (D 18628)

Aug 20, 2005, 2:34 PM
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Re: [airricks] pilot chute in tow question [In reply to] Can't Post

 
If I understand what you are asking then, the answer is no. The pilot chute can not pull the risers off. The canopy is what pulls the risers off the container. Since the canopy is still in the container, even if the 3 rings come lose, the rises and canopy will stay with the container unless the main comes out of the container. It is very common for the main to come out when the reserve is deployed. Everyone will have a different opinion on whether to cutaway or not. Do a search in the forums to find some of the pros and cons. But stick with what your instuctors taught you for now.


EvilLurker

Aug 20, 2005, 2:35 PM
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Re: [airricks] pilot chute in tow question [In reply to] Can't Post

What you're describing is possible, and it would be a VERY serious situation.


sundevil777  (D License)

Aug 20, 2005, 2:35 PM
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Re: [airricks] pilot chute in tow question [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
If I pull the cutaway will the pilot chute have enough drag to pull the risers off since it didnt have enough drag to open the canopy

The answer is no. There is nothing pulling on your risers if you have a PC in tow.

You really should know this with 12 jumps. Study your gear.

The debate centers on the fact that many times a PC in tow will stop 'towing' when the reserve is opened, because of reduced tnsion on the container, thus there is a risk of a simultaneous deployment and entanglement.

So the big question is whether it is better to cut away before pulling silver for a PC in tow.

The chance for problems with a 2 out situation must be balanced against the chance for the departing main to snag the reserve. It is not a settled issue on which is best, but I favor not cutting away.

Please read;
http://www.performancedesigns.com/docs/dualsq.pdf

and this is a decent thread dealing thoughtfully with the subject (of course my posts are the most thoughtfull :

http://www.dropzone.com/..._string=army;#598018

edited to fix link


(This post was edited by sundevil777 on Aug 20, 2005, 2:38 PM)


airtwardo  (D License)

Aug 20, 2005, 2:41 PM
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Re: [airricks] pilot chute in tow question [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Thanks for the reply. I know that's why you would cutaway before deploying the reserve, but I guess what Im asking is...say I decide that Im going to cutaway a pilot chute in tow. If I pull the cutaway will the pilot chute have enough drag to pull the risers off since it didnt have enough drag to open the canopy or will I just have a released main still there....I hope that makes more sense.


Quote:

I understood your question...which is why I suggest you get with Tim or your Instructor...

I don't think you have a complete grasp on how the system works.

The pilot chute in tow is held in tow by the pin and closing loop...it 'may' eventually create enough drag to pull the pin thus opening the container. If your reserve is in the process of opening, you would most likely rather have the uninflated main still in the bag come off your back and hopefully go past the reserve...instead of the two trying to open together. The risers are not connected to the pilot chute directly in any way...they are connected to the suspension lines on the canopy which is in a bag connected to the pilot chute. If the pilot chute has enough drag to open the container it will have enough drag to pick the bag out of it...at which time your cut away risers will allow the whole package to leave as a 'lump' instead of beginning the opening sequence.

Keep in mind that not all systems are the same, and you need to get with someone familiar with your gear to go over the EP's with you...ask questions until you fully understand what's happening and how to deal with it.

You're at one of the better DZ's going...they'll see to it you have all the info and 'tools' you need.


(This post was edited by airtwardo on Aug 20, 2005, 2:43 PM)


airtwardo  (D License)

Aug 20, 2005, 2:47 PM
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Re: [airricks] pilot chute in tow question [In reply to] Can't Post

will I just have a released main still there....

Quote:

If the container doesn't open...yes..you will land under your reserve with a released main still in the container.


EvilLurker

Aug 20, 2005, 3:14 PM
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Re: [airtwardo] pilot chute in tow question [In reply to] Can't Post

airricks:
You need to research the difference between a PC in tow and a baglock malfunction. A baglock may or may not have enough drag to seperate your 3-ring system. A PC in tow won't, since the force is not being transmitted to the risers. Looking back over your shoulder and determining which one you have might be tricky, which is why it's so dangerous. A main-reserve entanglement is a definate possibility in either case.


airtwardo  (D License)

Aug 20, 2005, 3:32 PM
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Re: [EvilLurker] pilot chute in tow question [In reply to] Can't Post

the difference between a PC in tow and a baglock malfunction.

Quote:

Good call Evil...

May be a terminology problem here...Wink


happythoughts  (D License)

Aug 20, 2005, 3:35 PM
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Re: [airricks] pilot chute in tow question [In reply to] Can't Post

After a while, a kill line will shrink. You toss your PC and...nothing. It bounces around on your back.

I have dipped one shoulder to all the air to flow across my back. It works, but you get a slammer opening followed by line twists.


Premier billvon  (D 16479)
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Aug 20, 2005, 3:46 PM
Post #12 of 33 (1888 views)
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Re: [airricks] pilot chute in tow question [In reply to] Can't Post

> If I pull the cutaway will the pilot chute have enough drag to pull the risers off . . .

The pilot chute does not pull the risers off. However, if you pull the cutaway handle during a PC in tow and you have poor riser covers, the risers can release and dangle behind the container, causing a potential snag point for the reserve. Most modern rigs have good enough riser covers that this isn't an issue.

It should be noted that often the opening of the reserve will cause the main to open. At that point it may begin to deploy; you may be in better shape if it's cut away at that point. As always check with your instructors for what to do in that situation.


airricks  (D 32014)

Aug 20, 2005, 4:00 PM
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Re: [billvon] pilot chute in tow question [In reply to] Can't Post

Ok.....Thanks for all the great replies guys. I guess when I was saying pilot chute in tow, I was picturing a baglock, so Im sorry for using the wrong terminology. I understand since the pin is still holding the container shut in a pilot chute in tow the lines never stretch and pull the risers. I guess I was wondering if I cutaway a baglock would there be enough drag to pull the risers off if there isnt enough to open the bag, which I guess the answer is maybe.

Thanks again for the replies guys


EvilLurker

Aug 20, 2005, 4:31 PM
Post #14 of 33 (1865 views)
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Re: [airricks] pilot chute in tow question [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
I guess when I was saying pilot chute in tow, I was picturing a baglock, so Im sorry for using the wrong terminology.

Evil shoots...and he scores! The crowd goes wild!


okay, maybe not Sly


sundevil777  (D License)

Aug 20, 2005, 4:50 PM
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Re: [airricks] pilot chute in tow question [In reply to] Can't Post

Always cut away from a bag lock. You must understand that is not debatable by anyone.

Even an uncocked PC should be able to take it away if it has gotten that far.


airtwardo  (D License)

Aug 20, 2005, 5:24 PM
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Re: [EvilLurker] pilot chute in tow question [In reply to] Can't Post

Evil shoots...and he scores! The crowd goes wild!

Quote:

Benched....showboating...!Wink


airricks  (D 32014)

Aug 20, 2005, 6:38 PM
Post #17 of 33 (1834 views)
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Re: [sundevil777] pilot chute in tow question [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
Always cut away from a bag lock. You must understand that is not debatable by anyone.

Even an uncocked PC should be able to take it away if it has gotten that far.

Thanks! This is exactly what I was looking for. Sorry for making this confusing by using the wrong terminology. Thanks for the replies everyone!


JohnMitchell  (D 6462)

Aug 20, 2005, 10:14 PM
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Re: [airricks] pilot chute in tow question [In reply to] Can't Post

How could you get this far in your training and jumping and not know to cut away a bag lock?

That should be extremely basic knowledge. Not trying to be cruel, just wondering if you missing any other critical knowledge.


tombuch  (D 8514)

Aug 21, 2005, 4:27 AM
Post #19 of 33 (1760 views)
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Re: [JohnMitchell] pilot chute in tow question [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
How could you get this far in your training and jumping and not know to cut away a bag lock?

That should be extremely basic knowledge. Not trying to be cruel, just wondering if you missing any other critical knowledge.

It's a common problem. There is so much information in the ground school and it all tends to blur together. That's a good reason to review book work on every training jump. It's also a reason why instructors like to simplify decision making and equipment management for students with basic rules such as "if you pull the main handle cutaway before using the reserve."

Once a jumper gets a bit more experience we can talk about when that rule might not work, or odd malfunctions such as a pilot chute in tow that might be handled another way, but it's frequently too much information for a student, so we simplify.

I hear from plenty of advanced students with questions that seem to reach for basic information that they should have learned in the FJC, but somehow missed. I'm always glad they are asking questions, and I'm happy to review so they get the complete picture when their brains have more space to soak it all up.


airricks  (D 32014)

Aug 21, 2005, 7:05 AM
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Re: [tombuch] pilot chute in tow question [In reply to] Can't Post

Well the question came up about whether or not to cutaway a pilot chute in tow, but like I said I wasn't picturing a pilot chute in tow mentally, but a baglock, so I was trying to apply the question of whether to cutaway to that malfunction and wondering why you would or wouldn't cutaway. I undertand the difference and the terminology now, and as Tom said it was a lot of info in the FJC and in my first FJC I had no jumps and my second refresher I only had 2 so now that I have some jumps in Ive been trying to undertand more of how and why stuff works. Sorry again for the dumb question and confusion.


tombuch  (D 8514)

Aug 21, 2005, 7:17 AM
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Re: [airricks] pilot chute in tow question [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
I undertand the difference and the terminology now, and as Tom said it was a lot of info in the FJC and in my first FJC I had no jumps and my second refresher I only had 2 so now that I have some jumps in Ive been trying to undertand more of how and why stuff works. Sorry again for the dumb question and confusion.

Not a dumb question at all.

Back in the day the only way to learn skydiving was to take a six hour ground school and then make a static line jump. Of course that meant you would be learning all the book knowledge without any experience, and would then need to know everything for your first real jump.

The USPA ISP and local tandem programs were designed to reduce those early issues. Ideally, a student who has made a real "learning" tandem has a good understanding of freefall and parachute flight so that when they begin their ground school they have an existing structure of knowledge, and that makes it easier to grasp the new material. The ISP is organized so all critical information is presented upfront, but that it is repeated and expanded on with later jumps, thus reinforcing the knowledge.

A first tandem, and the ISP aren't mandatory, but the way information is packaged and delivered in those programs provides a great guide for schools when they build their own programs. Likewise, the ISP guidelines in the SIM can really help a student to master material that may have been covered only briefly in a classroom environment.

Learning is always an active process. The more involved a student is the better he will learn. Likewise, the more a student knows, the easier it will be to learn.
.


Freeflysmiley  (C License)

Aug 22, 2005, 3:10 AM
Post #22 of 33 (1617 views)
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Re: [sundevil777] pilot chute in tow question [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Always cut away from a bag lock. You must understand that is not debatable by anyone.

Even an uncocked PC should be able to take it away if it has gotten that far.

To the likes of many lesser experienced jumpers myself included, chances are we are not going to be to be using time up looking behind us trying to decide if its a pilot chute in tow or a baglock. In reality we're just going to go for EP's. And that would be cut first ...


tombuch  (D 8514)

Aug 22, 2005, 5:19 AM
Post #23 of 33 (1581 views)
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Re: [Freeflysmiley] pilot chute in tow question [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
To the likes of many lesser experienced jumpers myself included, chances are we are not going to be to be using time up looking behind us trying to decide if its a pilot chute in tow or a baglock. In reality we're just going to go for EP's. And that would be cut first ...

I suppose that is the best way to handle it, but I'll add a few comments since I've had both malfunctions and watched/investigated many more.

A pilot chute in tow will generally leave you on your belly wondering what is going on. A baglock will almost always sit you upright and you will probably see the bag and know what's up. The distinction is usually pretty clear. Both are very serious high speed problems.

The more difficult distinctions involve a pilot chute in tow. It's often difficult to know if the pin is in or out, if the pilot chute is collapsed or open, and if the bridle is snagged or free. An experienced jumper can often figure that stuff out pretty quickly, but a novice will just know something bad is happening (or not happening).


Freeflysmiley  (C License)

Aug 22, 2005, 5:50 AM
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Re: [tombuch] pilot chute in tow question [In reply to] Can't Post

Yes that makes sense Tom. I also mean't a container lock versus pilot chute in tow, where I know some advocate just pulling silver, but for the likes of me would be pretty hard to distinguish quickly. So I think I'd just to standard EP's (for now anyways)


airricks  (D 32014)

Aug 22, 2005, 6:12 AM
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Re: [Freeflysmiley] pilot chute in tow question [In reply to] Can't Post

Thanks for the great advice Tom.

I agree that at my experience level, Im just going to know that I threw my pilot chute and Im not feeling the normal opening shock and I'll know something is wrong. I'm sure I'll be very nervous my first malfunction and it will probably be hard for me to tell if I have a pilot chute in tow or a baglock or a container lock. Until it happens I guess I won't know. I've pretty much decided for now if something goes wrong and I'm above 1000' then I'll pull red first, then silver.


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