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Raft Dives and AADs

 

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LawnDart21  (D License)

Aug 18, 2005, 8:07 AM
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Raft Dives and AADs Can't Post

Okay, so there was a thread awhile back where myself and a few others argued back and forth about the merits of AADs and bigways, and other extraordinary skydives and the associated risk tolerances.......

So last night Im reading an article in Skydiving Magazine about raft dives and one of the recommendations of the writers was that everyone on the jump should have AADS?

It then hit me, "If you feel you should have an AAD on this jump" because you think that there might actually be a chance it might be used, maybe you shouldnt do the raft jump?

It took me like 6 months....lol.......but I think I finally understand what Derek was saying.........lol.

If your specificaly recommended to have an AAD for a jump, there must be some perception that it may be needed during the dive. If that is the case, then maybe the jump should be reconsidered.

Edit to add: I understand from thier POV, why the writers included it in thier recommendation, I just don't agree with it.


beowulf  (C License)

Aug 18, 2005, 8:11 AM
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Re: [LawnDart21] Raft Dives and AADs [In reply to] Can't Post

If there is an increased risk of collision would you not do the jump?
Your reasoning is flawed. Adding the AAD to compensate some for the added risk is not stupid.


LawnDart21  (D License)

Aug 18, 2005, 8:14 AM
Post #3 of 97 (1699 views)
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Re: [beowulf] Raft Dives and AADs [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
Adding the AAD to compensate some for the added risk

Think about what an AAD does, it opens your reserve parachute at absoluetely the last second before it is too late and you bounce. If you go on any skydive thinking that there is a chance that you may not be able to do that yourself (open your own reserve with time to save yourself), maybe the jump is beyond your risk tolerance?


(This post was edited by LawnDart21 on Aug 18, 2005, 8:17 AM)


beowulf  (C License)

Aug 18, 2005, 8:17 AM
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Re: [LawnDart21] Raft Dives and AADs [In reply to] Can't Post

Are you saying I am an asshole?

You might want to meet me first for coming to that conclusion. Wink


LawnDart21  (D License)

Aug 18, 2005, 8:20 AM
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Re: [beowulf] Raft Dives and AADs [In reply to] Can't Post

Thats funny. I accidentally hit post while I was trying to cut and paste....lol It posted a blank post withonly my sig line.......lol.

I went back and edited it. Tongue


beowulf  (C License)

Aug 18, 2005, 8:21 AM
Post #6 of 97 (1684 views)
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Re: [LawnDart21] Raft Dives and AADs [In reply to] Can't Post

On raft dive there is more risk of a collision where you could be rendered unconscious. No matter how good you are that possibility still increases. Why not ad and AAD to help compensate?

By the way I have only done one raft dive and it didn't go very well. I didn't use an AAD, but I do understand why someone would not do a raft dive with out one. I would still do a raft dive without an AAD. You can call me stupid if you want.


AndyMan  (D 25698)

Aug 18, 2005, 8:32 AM
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Re: [LawnDart21] Raft Dives and AADs [In reply to] Can't Post

Wearing appropriate safety gear is never stupid.

Leaving safety gear on the ground when its likely you might need it is.

Leaving safety gear on the ground when it's unlikely you'll need it is not.

Wear appropriate safety gear on every skydive.

_Am


LawnDart21  (D License)

Aug 18, 2005, 8:33 AM
Post #8 of 97 (1665 views)
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Re: [beowulf] Raft Dives and AADs [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
You can call me stupid if you want.

Okay, your stupid. Tongue Just kidding. (Is it a personal attack if its invited?....lol)

Again, I'll say the same thing, an AAD is designed to do one thing, save your life when you cant. I dont consider a raft dive to put me beyond the ability to save my own life, collision or no collision, if I did, I would not jump on a raft dive. If your going on any dive where you think you may need an AAD to save your life because there is a chance you wont be able to, may indicate that the dive is beyond your risk tolerance. (I mean "you" generally, not you specifcally.)


pilotdave  (D License)

Aug 18, 2005, 8:40 AM
Post #9 of 97 (1657 views)
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Re: [LawnDart21] Raft Dives and AADs [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
If you go on any skydive thinking that there is a chance that you may not be able to do that yourself (open your own reserve with time to save yourself), maybe the jump is beyond your risk tolerance?

I guess I'm a slow learner because I still can't understand it.

I go on EVERY skydive thinking there's a chance that I might not be able to pull for myself. That's why I spent $1000 on a cypres. Sure, I'll jump without it. But that's only because I know the odds are REALLY good that I won't need a cypres on any particular skydive.

A raft dive might be an example where the odds are swayed a little bit toward being incapacitated in some way. That might be enough for some people to avoid those kinds of jumps. Others accept that risk. Once they've accepted the risk of making the jump, then it becomes a pretty good decision to use an AAD. If things go to hell like you knew they could, you might just be saved. Would it be smarter to avoid the jump in the first place? OF COURSE! We'd all be safer if we quit skydiving too. But if you're gonna take chances, you might as well give yourself as many chances to survive as possible.

Dave


Premier skybytch  (D License)

Aug 18, 2005, 8:44 AM
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Re: [pilotdave] Raft Dives and AADs [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
I go on EVERY skydive thinking there's a chance that I might not be able to pull for myself. That's why I spent $1000 on a cypres.

Really? I spent the money on a Cypres so my mother would be happy, and in case I fuck up and find myself in the basement.

I accepted a long time ago that I might die if I get into a collision in freefall. The only advantage to having a Cypres in that situation is that there will likely be less mess for my friends to clean up when I land dead under my reserve instead of going in.


LawnDart21  (D License)

Aug 18, 2005, 8:47 AM
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Re: [AndyMan] Raft Dives and AADs [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
Wearing appropriate safety gear is never stupid.

Agreed. The more safety gear you bring with you to reduce the risk, which makes you safer, the better.

Quote:
Leaving safety gear on the ground when its likely you might need it is.

Agreed again, they also said in the article to wear gloves to prevent rope burn on the hands, agree with that %100.

Quote:
Wear appropriate safety gear on every skydive.

Exactimundo my point. "Every skydive", my original point which I think is getting muttled is that a raft dive should be no different than any other skydive in terms of safety. If your "appropriate safety gear" consists of an AAD without a raft, it would make sense to wear it with the raft dive. If your "appropriate safety gear" normally does not consist of an AAD on jumps without a raft (which is also okay), why would it change with a raft? If adding a raft is that much more dangerous that an AAD is now needed, then the AAD is being used to offset the "increased risk", which I dont believe is the point of the AAD.


daniel_owen_uk  (Student)

Aug 18, 2005, 8:53 AM
Post #12 of 97 (1641 views)
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Re: [LawnDart21] Raft Dives and AADs [In reply to] Can't Post

You wear an AAD because there is a chance that you may not be able to deploy your own canopy.

If the chance that you will need it is increased then why is it wrong to stress wearing one for that jump?

You could say if there is extra risk involved then why do the jump? But if thats the case why do a regular jump?


(This post was edited by daniel_owen_uk on Aug 18, 2005, 8:54 AM)


Reginald  (D 28162)

Aug 18, 2005, 8:57 AM
Post #13 of 97 (1635 views)
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Re: [LawnDart21] Raft Dives and AADs [In reply to] Can't Post

Having been on a few raft dives and knowing the person who wrote the article (hell, Im even in one of the pics!), Ive got to say that raft dives ARE extraordinary skydives. There are unique risks that many people are not accustom to and sadly dont even understand.

For example, recently a raft dive went bad out the door and someone got trapped on top of an inverted raft (the bottom of the raft was up) and it was in a flat spin. The skydiver that was trapped on top struggled to get off but the g-forces were causing him all sorts of problems, both in simply getting off of the raft AND with a near blackout. He managed to get off the raft eventually but lower than he would have liked and pulled his main as his vision was fading out. Is this a risk most people understand on this type of dive? The answer is probably, No. Another example is the slight zero-G off a tailgate plane. If the pilots give too much than people have been known to hit their heads on the top of the door on a CASA or Skyvan. A good way to get knocked out. I know a guy that this happened to also. He kept conscious but had several weeks of recovery from his injury.

Using a little insurance, an AAD, is a good idea, in my opinion both for raft dives AND in general. It not there for when things go right; its there for when things go horribly wrong.

That said I do believe people should try and fully understand the risks with this type of skydived before they do one, and decide if they are comfortable with them. Personally, I dont do raft dives anymore. Wink Too much to go wrong and Ive seen too many go bad.


LawnDart21  (D License)

Aug 18, 2005, 9:09 AM
Post #14 of 97 (1617 views)
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Re: [daniel_owen_uk] Raft Dives and AADs [In reply to] Can't Post

I wear an AAD because I can afford to, it has no bearing on what jumps I will or wont do. If I couldnt afford one, I would still do the same jumps without one. Wearing one only reduces my risks, which makes me safer.


AndyMan  (D 25698)

Aug 18, 2005, 9:09 AM
Post #15 of 97 (1614 views)
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Re: [LawnDart21] Raft Dives and AADs [In reply to] Can't Post

I disagree.

I make sure to bring at least two hook-knives on a CRW jump, or when I have my camera helmet on. I've sometimes forget my hook-knives on other jumps.

There's absolutely nothing wrong with targetting safety equipment to the specific risks of the jump.

A Raft jump requires an AAD no more than a camera jump requires a hook-knife. It's still smart, in both cases.

_Am


LawnDart21  (D License)

Aug 18, 2005, 9:14 AM
Post #16 of 97 (1609 views)
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Re: [Reginald] Raft Dives and AADs [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
There are unique risks that many people are not accustom to and sadly dont even understand

So those people have two options:
1) Don't do the raft dive
or
2) Wear an AAD on a dive they know nothing about the risk of.

Which is the safer choice? What choice do most people make? Unimpressed

Again, I am not arguing that raft dives arent more extraordinary than a regular vanilla skydive.

My point is that if you have to wear an AAD to offset the additional risk of a unique skydive, your not wearing your AAD for its intended purpose. It wasnt invented so that people could do riskier skydives.


(This post was edited by LawnDart21 on Aug 18, 2005, 9:22 AM)


Premier billvon  (D 16479)
Moderator
Aug 18, 2005, 9:31 AM
Post #17 of 97 (1593 views)
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Re: [LawnDart21] Raft Dives and AADs [In reply to] Can't Post

>So those people have two options:
>1) Don't do the raft dive
>or
>2) Wear an AAD on a dive they know nothing about the risk of.

>Which is the safer choice? What choice do most people make?

And of course option 3 -

3) Don't do the risky dive you don't understand AND use an AAD.

The best take on this came from Kate Cooper at a bigway camp a few months back. Someone asked her if it would be better to not do bigways without an AAD. She thought about it, and said "If you think you need certain kinds of safety equipment for a skydive, you need to re-evaluate doing that skydive."


(This post was edited by billvon on Aug 18, 2005, 10:20 AM)


AndyMan  (D 25698)

Aug 18, 2005, 9:49 AM
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Re: [billvon] Raft Dives and AADs [In reply to] Can't Post

I've never met a CRW jumper who's willing to do CRW jumps without hook-knives.

I don't think that's any indication they need to reevalute doing CRW.

_Am


Premier Tonto  (D 515)
Moderator
Aug 18, 2005, 10:18 AM
Post #19 of 97 (1556 views)
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Re: [LawnDart21] Raft Dives and AADs [In reply to] Can't Post

I'm with you on this. If the warning bell is ringing - why should you play?

The only possible exception I see to this is an AFF student doing AFF with 2 appropriatly rated AFF instructors. Sure the student must use an AAD equiped rig - but to not jump because an AAD is required whould mean few people would enter the sport.

My student progression was pre AAD. SL's from 2500, 1st freefall from 2800 - a 3 second that lasted about 1, but was clearly long enough to last a lifetime.

t


white_falcon  (A License)

Aug 18, 2005, 10:20 AM
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Re: [LawnDart21] Raft Dives and AADs [In reply to] Can't Post

OK, I may be missing the point on this, but here's my take:

An AAD is a piece of equitpment correct? It is used to decrease the risk of death, should "shit" happen, correct?

Ok, so by using the logic applied, AGAINST using the AAD, then the same logic can be applied to having a RESERVE, can it not?? It's only there if things get out of / beyond your control.

So, if you think you are going to need it, are you sure you should be skydiving at all?

Note-- Playing devils advocate here, I personally jump w/ a cypress and will ALWAYS, and I am NOT advocating anyone jumpe w/o a reserve.

Scott


pilotdave  (D License)

Aug 18, 2005, 10:21 AM
Post #21 of 97 (1555 views)
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Re: [skybytch] Raft Dives and AADs [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
I accepted a long time ago that I might die if I get into a collision in freefall.

So? Obviously any of us could die from a freefall collision, AAD or not.

Why wear a helmet on a skydive if you accept that a kick to the head could kill you? Why bring a hook knife on a CRW jump if you accept a wrap could kill you? Why have a reserve if you accept that a main malfunction could kill you? Why is an AAD singled out as "different?" It's another chance to survive when you would otherwise be dead. It's not a cure-all. Anyone that thinks it is really needs to rethink things.

Dave


Premier billvon  (D 16479)
Moderator
Aug 18, 2005, 10:28 AM
Post #22 of 97 (1550 views)
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Re: [white_falcon] Raft Dives and AADs [In reply to] Can't Post

>Ok, so by using the logic applied, AGAINST using the AAD, then the
>same logic can be applied to having a RESERVE, can it not?? It's only
>there if things get out of / beyond your control.

That is exactly right. You should pack, maintain and deploy your main as if you don't have a reserve. That way, the chances of you having a mal will go down. If you treat your main like it's your only canopy, AND you use a reserve, that will result in safer skydives overall.

>So, if you think you are going to need it, are you sure you should
>be skydiving at all?

If you think you are going to need your reserve on a given jump - fix your main before you jump!


white_falcon  (A License)

Aug 18, 2005, 10:54 AM
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Re: [billvon] Raft Dives and AADs [In reply to] Can't Post

[replyIf you think you are going to need your reserve on a given jump - fix your main before you jump!

Amen Brother. Cool

Scott


Reginald  (D 28162)

Aug 18, 2005, 11:07 AM
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Re: [LawnDart21] Raft Dives and AADs [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
My point is that if you have to wear an AAD to offset the additional risk of a unique skydive, your not wearing your AAD for its intended purpose. It wasnt invented so that people could do riskier skydives.

Fully agreed. What do you believe the original intended purpose of an AAD is?


LawnDart21  (D License)

Aug 18, 2005, 11:14 AM
Post #25 of 97 (1515 views)
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Re: [white_falcon] Raft Dives and AADs [In reply to] Can't Post

There is a flaw in your logic comparing Reserves and AADs.

Regardless of how impeccable one packs, the inevitability of a malfunctioning main does still exist and despite our diligency in packing correctly, it happens frequently, some would say 1 in 1000 jumps on average, could be higher, could be lower, but its important to remember that if jumped enough, every main will eventually have a malfunction.

Regarding the need for an AAD, that is a malfunction of the person, not the gear, that typically leads to a cypress fire. And unlike mains, there exists no inevitabilty that all jumpers will have a mental malfunction. Most all infact do not.

How many thousands of skydivers are out there that jump with AADs their whole career and never have an AAD fire? Most skydivers I would presume, making 1000s ands 1000s of jumps, and never need their AADs. Ask those same thousands of skydivers how many have had a reserve ride? Most will say they have.

So there is where your arguement is faulty, your reserve is a peice of equipement that acknowledges the unavoidable imperfection of your gear. Your AAD acknowledges the unaviodable imperfection in people. The different is A) the expected frequency of the imperfections occuring (gear = common, human error = uncommon)and B) what we can do to prevent the gear or human malfunctions from occuring.


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