Forums: Skydiving: Events & Places to Jump:
WFFC Suggestions

 

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Thanatos340  (B 27588)

Aug 15, 2005, 7:17 AM
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WFFC Suggestions Can't Post

Everyone I have talked to that went to this years Convention seemed to be disappointed. Most have said that they will not go back. Personally, I love the Convention and want to see it return. I thought a Thread with positive and constructive Suggestions on ways the Convention can be improved could help.

1. Pro-Rate the Boogie Fee. The Number one Complaint was that people would not pay $70 when they were only staying a Few days. There are ways this could be done that have been discussed in other threads.

2. Lower the Vendor Fees - One of the Big Draws for the Convention is the fact that All the Major Manufacturers should be there along with many Major Vendors. With attendance Dropping, The Vendors cannot justify $1,000 just to have a Booth there. Without the Vendors, Attendance will continue to drop. With the vendors not coming, That is one more reason for the Jumpers to skip the convention.

3. Deliver the promised Air-Craft. I spent most of a Day waiting for the Heli to show. First Manifest said it would be there at Noon, Then they said Check back at 1:00pm, then it was check back at 3:00pm, Then it was maybe tomorrow. If it isnt coming, just say so!! The Pac and Heli Never showed from what I was told.

4. Better marketing. It seemed to me that the organizers have gotten Lax about the convention. There was Nothing new this year other than Phat Annie and even that was not widely published.

5. More Organized and Publicized Competitions. Again some of this goes back to the better marketing of what is being offered. Lets see a Swoop Meet, A 4-way Comp and maybe even some 8 and 10 way competitions. I know some of these things are going on currently but they could be bet better publicized. Start Pushing these events in January so that teams have time to get organized and ready.

6. Put the Bar back in the Main tent. Moving behind the Tent this year was a bad move. One, You couldnt see it, Two, It was too hard to get to the bar if there were more than 5 or 6 people there, Three, It drew people away from the tent.

The Convention needs an overhaul if it going to survive. The Regional Boogies like Dublin and Skyfest are growing and competition is getting tougher. I hope Don and his Great Crew will step back and take a long look at what is happening and react to a Changing Market.


Anyone else have any suggetions??


Thanatos340  (B 27588)

Aug 15, 2005, 7:29 AM
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Re: [Thanatos340] WFFC Suggestions [In reply to] Can't Post

7. One more thing I forgot... Bring back the Official WFFC DVD. Get someone to produce it (Who can deliver in a Reasonable timeframe). Set up a Booth where people can pre order and dump footage they would like to be considered for inclusion. The marketing value of an Official DVD is Huge. Once the DVD is released it will be shown to 100`s of people that were not there and see how much fun everyone is having. They will want to be a part of the next one.


Peej  (B 2456)

Aug 15, 2005, 7:36 AM
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Re: [Thanatos340] WFFC Suggestions [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
7. One more thing I forgot... Bring back the Official WFFC DVD. Get someone to produce it (Who can deliver in a Reasonable timeframe). Set up a Booth where people can pre order and dump footage they would like to be considered for inclusion. The marketing value of an Official DVD is Huge. Once the DVD is released it will be shown to 100`s of people that were not there and see how much fun everyone is having. They will want to be a part of the next one.

Oh hell yeah! I was SO dissapointed to find out that there wasn't one of last year after the blast i had at Rantoul.


Premier PhreeZone  (D License)
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Aug 15, 2005, 8:09 AM
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Re: [Thanatos340] WFFC Suggestions [In reply to] Can't Post

On that note... actually have the video crew able to jump with you. I know in 2002 I just walked up and there were always 2-3 people sitting there just waiting to go on a jump with someone. In 2003 I'd ask and they had a hard time justifiying it for something like a 3 way freefly. I know that they have to watch their bottom line and make sure they always have te possibility of getting good footage, but they had to turn away a lot of freefly groups to go shoot video of the Knights or of something else that would have more people in it. I loved the 2002 dvd since I saw myself in it a few times.


kelel01  (A License)

Aug 15, 2005, 8:29 AM
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Re: [Thanatos340] WFFC Suggestions [In reply to] Can't Post

NO ONE allowed with less than 50 jumps (as a skydiver, student or novice), other than tandems (and possibly AFF, although I think AFF there is a bad idea . . . JMO). Anyone who wishes to jump out of a plane without an INSTRUCTOR (not just a coach) should have documented proof of jump numbers (50+) and currency (particularly if unlicensed).


ChasingBlueSky  (D License)

Aug 15, 2005, 8:36 AM
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Re: [Thanatos340] WFFC Suggestions [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
1. Pro-Rate the Boogie Fee. The Number one Complaint was that people would not pay $70 when they were only staying a Few days. There are ways this could be done that have been discussed in other threads.

I came up with an idea that Beth said they would look at. Basic idea: Pay full fee up front. If you stay over the deadline you don't get your money back....if you leave early and turn in wristband you get a pro rated return.


Premier billvon  (D 16479)
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Aug 15, 2005, 9:11 AM
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Re: [kelel01] WFFC Suggestions [In reply to] Can't Post

>NO ONE allowed with less than 50 jumps (as a skydiver, student or novice) . . .

Not true. This year, any jumper with any rating at all was allowed in. I jumped with someone with 26 jumps, and I talked to someone else with 22 jumps who didn't have a license yet.


jeiber  (C 34238)

Aug 15, 2005, 9:37 AM
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Re: [billvon] WFFC Suggestions [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
Not true. This year, any jumper with any rating at all was allowed in.

I think Kelly was suggesting that the WFFC be restricted to people with at least 50 jumps.

She knows there were people there with less than 50 jumps, right Kel? Wink

Jeff


Thanatos340  (B 27588)

Aug 15, 2005, 9:44 AM
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Re: [jeiber] WFFC Suggestions [In reply to] Can't Post

Well if attendance continues its current downward trend.. I dont see where it would be much of an issue for lowtimers as long as they stayed over the Student/Tandem Landing area.

The Canopy Traffic didnt look that bad at all this year compared to last year.


PsychoBob  (D 29553)

Aug 15, 2005, 9:47 AM
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Re: [Thanatos340] WFFC Suggestions [In reply to] Can't Post

I think it should be reduced to a 5-6 day event. (Tuesday/Wednesday through Sunday) You would have more people compressed into a smaller time frame and it would keep the party going and the vendors wouldn't have to dedicate 2 weeks of their staff, merchandice and equipment for one event.

Also having to pay full price ($295.)for a campsite whether you are there 4 nights or the entire 10 days is bogus. I can see a 3-4 day minimum but no having it pro-rated on a daily basis sucks.
JMHO


Dougjumper  (B License)

Aug 15, 2005, 10:08 AM
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Re: [billvon] WFFC Suggestions [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Not true. This year, any jumper with any rating at all was allowed in. I jumped with someone with 26 jumps, and I talked to someone else with 22 jumps who didn't have a license yet.

Yep met a person named Dale I believe very cute little Yorkie dog with her and she had only around 30ish jumps.


Premier billvon  (D 16479)
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Aug 15, 2005, 10:09 AM
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Re: [jeiber] WFFC Suggestions [In reply to] Can't Post

>I think Kelly was suggesting that the WFFC be restricted to people
>with at least 50 jumps.

oops. I take it that Kel did not like the lower experienced jumpers at the convention? Why not, if I may ask?


kelel01  (A License)

Aug 15, 2005, 10:24 AM
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Re: [billvon] WFFC Suggestions [In reply to] Can't Post

Just one bad experience I heard about. And I think that even without a "bad" experience like this one, anyone with less than 50 jumps is in WAY over their head jumping there. I wouldn't raise the minimum (just because that's how it's always been done), but even people with 50 jumps are probably in over their heads, unless they regularly jump at Perris, Eloy, or one of the other mega-DZ's.


Mirage63  (C License)

Aug 15, 2005, 10:29 AM
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Re: [billvon] WFFC Suggestions [In reply to] Can't Post

Plan a bigway event during the WFC - rw, ff, crw.


Premier billvon  (D 16479)
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Aug 15, 2005, 10:34 AM
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Re: [kelel01] WFFC Suggestions [In reply to] Can't Post

>Just one bad experience I heard about.

What happened?

I also thought that allowing people with under 50 jumps to jump at the convention was a bad idea, but beyond my experience I didn't hear of any problems with it.


CDRINF  (D 15996)

Aug 15, 2005, 11:32 AM
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Re: [Thanatos340] WFFC Suggestions [In reply to] Can't Post

Lower the basic jump ticket price. Most boogies I have attended have a jump ticket price a buck or two under the going ticket price for the DZ. Skydivers are pretty much cheap bastards (I know I am). A jump ticket price of between $16-$18 would be incentive enough for a lot of people to come, and I think that the WFFC would make up the difference in volume of registrants.

CDR


Premier billvon  (D 16479)
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Aug 15, 2005, 11:50 AM
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Re: [CDRINF] WFFC Suggestions [In reply to] Can't Post

>Lower the basic jump ticket price.

So far I've seen:

cheaper jump tickets
cheaper vendor fees
cheaper one-day reg fees
cheaper reg fees
cheaper camping fees

And:

more marketing
more competitions
more aircraft

I would point out that those are sort of mutually exclusive. As the crowd dwindles, things are going to tend to get more expensive per jumper as the 'baseline' costs (garbage collection, security etc) stay the same.

So perhaps a better question would be - what new thing would you want that you would be willing to pay for? Should there be a competition with an entry fee? A big way camp that you pay an extra $50 for? Because I think "more stuff for less money with fewer jumpers" isn't going to happen.


hookncrater

Aug 15, 2005, 11:58 AM
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Re: [Thanatos340] WFFC Suggestions [In reply to] Can't Post

I second the comments regarding the specialty aircraft. They should publish the dates they will be flying and whether they are truly confirmed or just a possibility. Having to stick around to find out if a plane may or may not be there is annoying esp when I could be up in Chicago partying or taking in the sites.

This year, Carvair manifesting was kinda confusing at first, till they got it straight. Sikorsky was a no-show, PAC was a no-show, DC-3 showed up quite late (they should warn you to bring extra-powerful ear plugs for that!!!) as did a Bell helo that I didn't have time to jump unfortunately.

Manifest did a great job, as did the load organizers, but if I wanted to spend a week jumping out of mostly Eloy's planes, I could have done it in Eloy without the boogie fee, humidity, and had a safer landing area. Tongue


Thanatos340  (B 27588)

Aug 15, 2005, 12:21 PM
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Re: [billvon] WFFC Suggestions [In reply to] Can't Post

I didnt feel the jump tickets were out of line with current costs.

Yes.. Vendor Fee MUST be reduced. It would be different if the attendance was up but with lower attendance, The Vendor spot is worth less plain and simple. By lowering the Vendor fees, more vendors should be able to come. This should also help boost attendance as well. More Vendor will be able to come which would also boost overall Revenues.

Would you rather have 20 Vendors paying $1000 or 30 paying $700?? I saw lots of Open Space on Vendor Row and heard from several that they would not be back due to low attendance and Higher Fees.

One day Fees would be Money that they are not making now. Again a Boost to total Revenues without significantly increasing costs.

Cheaper Camping Fees?? How many more would have paid $195 and would it have offset the Cost difference.

I said Better Marketing (Not More).

More Competitions?? Yep, Each with a reasonable entry fee to cover costs. (Not to be a Profit center). The idea is to use the competition to draw people in. The money will come from increased Registration, Jump tickets, Souvenirs and ect..

more aircraft?? No just deliver the ones that are advertised.

It seems that the WFFC is trying to Cover Costs from a dwindling customer base by raising the prices. What I think they should focus on is increasing the customer base. More people paying less has a much better chance of success that Fewer people paying more.


Edited cause I cant spell.


(This post was edited by Thanatos340 on Aug 15, 2005, 12:50 PM)


kelpdiver  (B 7)

Aug 15, 2005, 1:18 PM
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Re: [billvon] WFFC Suggestions [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
I would point out that those are sort of mutually exclusive. As the crowd dwindles, things are going to tend to get more expensive per jumper as the 'baseline' costs (garbage collection, security etc) stay the same.

It's mutually exclusive if you assume the crowd number will stay even or decline. And yes, it's dangerous to increase spending when you do have a declining base, especially if you have to run these as singular events and can't run a loss one year to reverse the trend.


CSpenceFLY  (D 25252)

Aug 15, 2005, 3:54 PM
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Re: [Thanatos340] WFFC Suggestions [In reply to] Can't Post

Not aimed at you Jay just happened to be on your post.

Let me start by saying that cheaper is not always an option and honesty isn't either.
After running a few events and knowing a little about what it takes to make something like this happen I commend Don and his staff on the job they do to keep this thing going year after year.This was my first convention and I plan on returning next year and staying longer.
As for the cost I don't think anything is way out of line if you are staying the entire time but full registration and $295 for an RV slot for a weekend is a big pill to swallow.As for the person that wants to see cheaper jump prices,take a look at gas prices and add 2 bucks to get what AV-gas and Jet-A are going for now a days and thank you lucky stars we are not paying $30 for a jump today everywhere.
Guys it takes alot of money to make something like this happen.Staff,Port-a-Jons,Security,Entertainment(every night),Insurance.The list goes on and on.Do I think Don is in the poor house?No.But I have done some of these things and not made a dime and it bites but I do it cause I like the abuseWink.
As for the honesty.If it's not coming say so.When the guy called me with the DC-3 about coming to Dublin,I let the cat out of the bag to soon.Only to find out he didn't even own the plane yet.Made me look like an ass, but I told everyone it was not coming.I didn't want someone making the trip just for that only to be dissappointed.
As for the vendors.I would do whatever it takes to get them coming back.I think it's a big draw for the convention.After all they can stay home,do business and it doesn't cost them a dime.
I think it is great to have a place we can party and not be hassled by the cops.Skydive as much as we want and see all of our friends from all over the country and the world.I will be back.
Keep in mind people it cost money to be entertained.Who has not spent $40-50 bucks to go to a concert for 3 hrs.That is my $1.25 worth.Damn good thing I have not been drinking....much.


jsaxton  (D 26818)

Aug 15, 2005, 4:10 PM
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Re: [Mirage63] WFFC Suggestions [In reply to] Can't Post

I did a 50 way attempt with Carl Doherty (tent 9)


namgrunt

Aug 15, 2005, 4:22 PM
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Re: [Thanatos340] WFFC Suggestions [In reply to] Can't Post

QUESTION

WHAT does it cost for a vendor to go to wffc
tent,camp sight ,registration ,parking ,etc.

I asked this but never got an answer from the staff there.I figured 14 hr. drive setup camper then do most of our own cooking.

what is the lowest cost for 2 employees to set up shop for 2 weeks.
thanks ,I think this will answer a big part of the question(problem)

.


flyangel2

Aug 15, 2005, 6:04 PM
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Re: [jsaxton] WFFC Suggestions [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
I did a 50 way attempt with Carl Doherty (tent 9)

The key word in your post is "attempt". I think what Mirage63 is saying that if an "event" of invited jumpers that are able to do a 50 way or larger, that would bring in people.


Amanda965  (B 26264)

Aug 15, 2005, 6:12 PM
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Re: [namgrunt] WFFC Suggestions [In reply to] Can't Post

With this being my first convention, I have a few random things that other did not mention.

1.) I guess I come from a super safe dropzone, but I definitely do not feel there was enough attention paid to safety. Walking in from the landing area one afternoon, it seriously looked as if jumpers were playing chicken with one another coming in for landing. Have a board of the designated pull altitudes, exit order, landing direction, etc. where everyone can see it.

Some of that may be common sense to jumpers "raised" at a safe dropzone, but not everyone is and with that many jumpers coming in at once, why risk it when we can do more about it?

2.) Freefly organizers. I did not see any.

3.) Put some of those portable sinks around so that everyone isn't walking around with dirty hands all day.

4.) Do something about the party. I can't hit the nail on the head, but it just wasn't a normal boogie party. No big fire going on for hours maybe, I dunno. I guess maybe the parties got better later into the week, but I missed those.

All in all, it was a fun event. Would have came back the next weekend to get my $70 worth if it wasn't for the horrible weather forecast and the horrible drive Alana and I encountered on the way back to Columbus last Sunday!!


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