Forums: Skydiving Disciplines: Swooping and Canopy Control:
Positive recovery arc???

 


freeflir29  (D 10000000)

Jul 16, 2002, 8:15 AM
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Positive recovery arc??? Can't Post

OK...So I have a Stilletto 170 loaded about 1.25. (Lost some weight since I bought it) I have about 100 jumps on it now and have gotten really comfortable on it. I'm getting to the point of doing some pretty hard 180's and have even pulled a 90/180 approach a few times. I started with slower carves but the more comfortable I get, the harder I dig the risers. So, now we get to my problem. I did two jumps this weekend where the recovery arc was a POSITIVE one. Very annoying!!! I didn't even touch the brakes and the thing popped up on me. I had to put in the brakes then to keep from shooting up 10ft in the air and busting my ass. Is there a way to keep this from happening other than NOT hooking it so hard? I have had some pretty nice surfs before with less riser input but up to this point, it has always been harder hook=longer surf. Now it seems I'm building TOO MUCH speed. Any suggestions other than ditching the Stilletto for another canopy? I might be able to demo a Nitron 150 this weekend. Cool


(This post was edited by freeflir29 on Jul 16, 2002, 9:33 AM)


Hooknswoop  (D License)

Jul 16, 2002, 9:00 AM
Post #2 of 13 (1279 views)
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Re: [freeflir29] Positive recovery arc??? [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
it has always been harder hook=longer surf

More energy=longer surf, all other things being equal.

You have gotten to the point where at the speeds you are generating, the drag on the canopy makes it "sit back" without any toggle input. The canopy will plane out and even climb after a front riser dive,(I have seen a stiletto 120 do this). The larger the canopy, the slower the speed that it will climb w/o toggle input. On smaller canopies it is impossible to reach the speed that will cause the canopy to plane out w/o toggle input and is refered to as a negative recovery arc. After a dive, it will return to normal, steady state, decending flight w/o first planing out or climbing, then slowing down and finally diving to acclerate to normal full flight speed.

The disadvantage, as you discovered, of a canopy that planes out or climbs w/o toggle input after a dive, is that it can result in a bad landing after the canopy climbs, runs out of airpseeds, then dives into the ground in an attempt to regain flying speed. A canopy w/ a negative recovery arc, again meaning it will not plane out or climb with no toggle input, allows for a soft landing, even if the front riser turn was initiated too high. It will simply bleed off airspeed as it continues to decend. Worst case scenario is the canopy bleeds off all the speed from the front riser manuever and you end up with a full flight, straight in approach. No big deal and a lot nicer than the ankle burner the positive revovery arc canopy will give you after having to flare with little airspeed in a dive near the ground.

The other, end even more important advantage that a negative recovery arc will give you is that it imposssible to start your front riser turn too high. The canopy continues to dive and again, worst case is that it bleds off all the extra airpseed, that you don't need to land anyway. With a positive recovery arc, initiating the front riser turn too high, even a little, results in a bad landing. People doing hook turns with a canopy that has a positve recovery tend to be in the corner a little to prevent hooking too high. Not the place to be.

My thoughts anyway.

Hook


freeflir29  (D 10000000)

Jul 16, 2002, 9:13 AM
Post #3 of 13 (1272 views)
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Re: [Hooknswoop] Positive recovery arc??? [In reply to] Can't Post

OK....Have any suggestions on a canopy that won't do this to me? I really wasn't in a hurry to downsize but I think 150 is about as big as anyone besides PD makes HP canopies. (The Nitron and Cobalt anyway) No big deal really. At almost 250 jumps I think I'll be just fine on a 150 loaded at 1.4. It's just that I kinda like the 170. I could generate plenty of speed in a hard front riser dive yet still go pretty slow and hang in the air waiting for the pattern to clear out. If I want my swooping to continue to improve I guess I'll have to go down one more size.....Unsure Oh well...I'll just have to be careful for another 100 jumps until I get good again. How's the Nitron and Cobalt recovery arcs?


Premier PhreeZone  (D License)
Moderator
Jul 16, 2002, 9:21 AM
Post #4 of 13 (1265 views)
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Re: [freeflir29] Positive recovery arc??? [In reply to] Can't Post

Cobalts come in 170, and I know you can get a Nitron in 170 too. We have a Nitron 170 at my DZ now.

As for the recovery arc on a Cobalt... its a flat arc, not negitive as far as I can tell... I don't have to give it toggle input to flatten out the dive. I let up and it continues to return to its normal glide, it only climbs on toggle input. Granted I've only started to do 180's and they are more carves then hooks so some one thats pushed the canopy beyond what I have might be able to point out that with more speed... the canopies fly differently.


crazy  (D 23767)

Jul 17, 2002, 4:04 AM
Post #5 of 13 (1189 views)
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Re: [freeflir29] Positive recovery arc??? [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
Have any suggestions on a canopy that won't do this to me?
maybe you don't need to get another canopy. Releasing the risers a bit slower might solve the problem. Pushing a little bit on the front risers after releasing them might help too.
The nitron, even 1 size smaller, will probably have the same problem, however the recovery arc will be larger. I never tried it at intermediate wing loadings, but even heavily loaded it can flatten out by itself.


Jimbo  (D License)

Jul 17, 2002, 4:47 AM
Post #6 of 13 (1183 views)
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Re: [PhreeZone] Positive recovery arc??? [In reply to] Can't Post

 
Quote:
Cobalts come in 170, and I know you can get a Nitron in 170 too. We have a Nitron 170 at my DZ now.

So do the Crossfire, Crossfire 2, Diablo, Vengeance, and most, if not all of the elliptical canopies. The only canopies I've seen that don't get that big are cross braced.

-
Jim


R00tj00se  (C 100697)

Jul 17, 2002, 5:12 AM
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Re: [PhreeZone] Positive recovery arc??? [In reply to] Can't Post

Doesn't the Vengeance have a negative recovery arc?


Samurai136  (D 26609)

Jul 17, 2002, 7:16 AM
Post #8 of 13 (1160 views)
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Re: [freeflir29] Positive recovery arc??? [In reply to] Can't Post

  
The Samurai has a nice negative recovery arc. They even make them in 150, 170, and 190 sizes.

At any rate, improving your swoop is all about technique. Buying a smaller canopy only puts you in the situation of relearning how to swoop. Any smaller canopy you buy will dive faster for more altitude. Be safe about downsizing. What specifically are you looking to improve in your swoop?

If your looking to get more distance, try learning rear riser flares on the canopy you have.

-Ken


freeflir29  (D 10000000)

Jul 17, 2002, 7:33 AM
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Re: [Samurai136] Positive recovery arc??? [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
What specifically are you looking to improve in your swoop?


It just seems that once again.....I am able to outfly this canopy. I can get some pretty nice swoops when I don't dig in the risers so hard but when I build "too much" speed I don't think there is any technique in the world that can keep this canopy from popping up. The last two times I landed I didn't even touch the brakes until it started to pitch up. Then it was only to rob some speed to keep me closer to the ground. I'm not doing anything except holding it in a hard turn and then letting off the front riser. I need a canopy that doesn't pop back up on it's own.


Hooknswoop  (D License)

Jul 17, 2002, 9:55 AM
Post #10 of 13 (1138 views)
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Re: [freeflir29] Positive recovery arc??? [In reply to] Can't Post

Demo, demo, demo. A different canopy might be the right choice and not necessarily a smaller canopy. I haven't jumped a Nitron, so I don't know what the recovery arc is like and how it compares to other ellipticals.

Hook

Hook


freeflyguy  (D 24207)

Jul 17, 2002, 10:38 AM
Post #11 of 13 (1131 views)
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Re: [freeflir29] Positive recovery arc??? [In reply to] Can't Post

Demo

Everything you said seems to say you are building more speed then your wingloading will allow. That isn't a problem. Just a progression.

I don't understand how brakes will keep you on the ground though.

Have fun, fly smart.


freeflir29  (D 10000000)

Jul 17, 2002, 1:41 PM
Post #12 of 13 (1104 views)
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Re: [freeflyguy] Positive recovery arc??? [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
I don't understand how brakes will keep you on the ground though


I know...it sounds backwards but it works. I'm basically just shutting the canopy down so it doesn't continue going up. If I didn't get in the brakes it would still have lots of energy to shoot me like 10 ft in the air....and then leave me hanging there. That would be bad. Unsure


lowhook  (D 18667)

Jul 17, 2002, 8:38 PM
Post #13 of 13 (1091 views)
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Re: [R00tj00se] Positive recovery arc??? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Doesn't the Vengeance have a negative recovery arc?
The Vengeance I jumped loaded at 2.0 would stay nicely in a dive until bumped out of it by rear risers or toggles. Recovery arc was very similar to my old Jedei.



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