Forums: Skydiving Disciplines: Canopy Relative Work:
w/ or w/o d bag

 

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bodypilot90  (D 24249)

Aug 7, 2005, 1:13 PM
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w/ or w/o d bag Can't Post

ok I just went to the dz to jump my lightning. None of the packers there know how except one. He said jumping with a tail pocket instead of a d bag is just asking for a mal. I assume this is just someone who does not know or understand crw? what do you think? I still have time to do a solo or two.....help?


BillyVance  (D 18895)

Aug 7, 2005, 1:18 PM
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Re: [bodypilot90] w/ or w/o d bag [In reply to] Can't Post

Screw the packers, especially the one who said the "asking for a mal" comment. He doesn't know what he's talking about.

You're better off packing yourself or getting an experienced crwdog pack it for you, especially if you go without a D-bag... There's lots of crwdogs around. Check on the crwdog mailing list for help... Wink

Do you remember the Pangburn packing video? Remember the sequence?


(This post was edited by BillyVance on Aug 7, 2005, 1:20 PM)


bodypilot90  (D 24249)

Aug 7, 2005, 1:28 PM
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Re: [BillyVance] w/ or w/o d bag [In reply to] Can't Post

yea but i kind of wanted someone to look over my shoulder. I'll just pack it and try it,

thanks Billy

old rec skydivers just do it better


Premier faulknerwn  (D 17441)
Moderator
Aug 7, 2005, 8:23 PM
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Re: [bodypilot90] w/ or w/o d bag [In reply to] Can't Post

Yeah - if I had to guess tailpockets are WAY less likely to mal than bags. There are just are fewer possibilities :-)

W


TVPB  (F 666)

Aug 8, 2005, 4:26 AM
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Re: [bodypilot90] w/ or w/o d bag [In reply to] Can't Post

Here's an interesting perspective.

BASE jumpers.

Use only one canopy (generally).

Which means that they crave/desire/need/expect a greater level of consistancy and reliability than skydivers (who generally have 2 parachutes).

Not many BASE rigs with d-bags.

Makes you wonder why??????

Another thing. D-bags make it so much harder to retract the pilot chute on opening. Hence, there is more crap flapping around whilst you are doing CRW. Not good.

Tip 1 - the person you are talking to is NOT a packer. In my mind, a packer should have some degree of understanding of equipment, its configuration, and the reason things are set up as they are. Or at least the ability to logically determine why things are the way they are. Better go to someone who has an idea. Now, packing a VX69 into a container without a d-bag may add complexity and issues on deployment, but Lightnings (CRW canopies in general) work really well without the bag. That is the way they are designed.

Study the deployment sequence. All you are doing in CRW is removing the d-bag component of it, almost everything else is fundamentally similar.

Smile

p.s slider up, open in clear space (to avoid hitting others), deal with it. This is probably your worst case scenario.


chuckbrown  (D 19538)

Aug 8, 2005, 4:28 AM
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Re: [bodypilot90] w/ or w/o d bag [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
None of the packers there know how except one. He said jumping with a tail pocket instead of a d bag is just asking for a mal.

You now know who's advice to avoid.


Andrelr  (D 270)

Aug 8, 2005, 7:56 AM
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Re: [TVPB] w/ or w/o d bag [In reply to] Can't Post

good advice


krkeenan  (C 7860)

Aug 12, 2005, 9:45 PM
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Re: [bodypilot90] w/ or w/o d bag [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
...said jumping with a tail pocket instead of a d bag is just asking for a mal...

I agree that the packer probably doesn't know jack.

However, I pack my L-143 in a bag all the time, and have fine openings. I mainly use it because it packs much faster and easier. And the bag has never been an issue under canopy. But everyone has their opinion. Free-packing works - most of the "pros" use it. I think that most people who have had injuries from openings in the last couple of years were free packing. (Not a scientific sampling, but it would make an interesting study.)

It's one of those PC vs. Mac things. It will always be split. It may have something to do with the angle of the brain wrinkles.

Kevin 3


TVPB  (F 666)

Aug 14, 2005, 4:59 PM
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Re: [krkeenan] w/ or w/o d bag [In reply to] Can't Post

What type of injuries are you referring to?

Instantaneous or developing over a long period?

What is the mechanism/cause?

Just curious about your thoughts.


BillyVance  (D 18895)

Aug 14, 2005, 10:44 PM
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Re: [TVPB] w/ or w/o d bag [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
What type of injuries are you referring to?

Instantaneous or developing over a long period?

What is the mechanism/cause?

Just curious about your thoughts.

Usually injuries from hard openings, like whip-lash, broken/cracked vertebrae, maybe ribs too, and possibly dislocated shoulders and the like. Cheryl Michaels had a neck injury from such a hard opening a while back. Not sure what her set-up was, but I think she was jumping the skyvan, and the canopy just slammed her.

I had 4 extremely hard openings in one day on my tail-pocket-equipped L-143, but that was attributed to two factors. 1 - higher-than-necessary jump run speed from a King Air, and 2 - a fairly new canopy that I wasn't rolling the heck out of the nose in my packjobs. If I recall right, I didn't even bother.

Now, I roll the fuck out of the nose, three outer cells as far into the center cell as possible, to the point where the "Lightning" logos on both end cells meet in the middle. I also try and make sure our King Air pilot flies jump run as slow as safely possible. Since then the openings are tolerable and no bruises on the pecs and arms. Smile


krkeenan  (C 7860)

Aug 15, 2005, 6:36 AM
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Re: [BillyVance] w/ or w/o d bag [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Usually injuries from hard openings, like whip-lash, broken/cracked vertebrae, maybe ribs too, and possibly dislocated shoulders and the like...
I had 4 extremely hard openings in one day on my tail-pocket-equipped L-143, ...
Now, I roll the fuck out of the nose, three outer cells as far into the center cell as possible, to the point where the "Lightning" logos on both end cells meet in the middle. I also try and make sure our King Air pilot flies jump run as slow as safely possible. /reply]

-----------------------------------
All of which (in my opinion) could have been avoided by the use of a D-Bag.

If you need a precision, BASE-type opening because of a world-class competition exit, with openings occurring feet apart and have good control over exit speeds, then I think free-packing is appropriate. But, for the majority of CRW jumpers, risking these injuries is simply not justified.

I will, however, defend to the death any CRWDog's right to decide for themselves. Some people look good in orthopedic devices...Smile

Kevin 3


CRWCheryl  (D License)

Aug 15, 2005, 9:54 AM
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Re: [BillyVance] w/ or w/o d bag [In reply to] Can't Post

Hey Billy,

My injury was out of an otter and the exit speed was perfect. The airplane speed had nothing to do with this particular incident, although past openings may have had accumulating effect.

I have been more focused on on-heading openings. The d-bag tends to give me more off-headings, so I don't use a d-bag.

And I hadn't rolled the nose. I liked the fact that I knew my parachute was opening right when I wanted it to. Never thought in a million years that I could do so much damage to myself.

Now I roll the nose and curl the tails in on both sides. And I mean I roll the nose tightly. I still get a snappy opening sometimes, but it just may be that I'm more sensitive. Nothing like that one incident!

At first I jumped with a ZP slider to slow the opening, and that helped. As soon as I started jumping larger than 8 way, I changed back to the mesh slider so there wasn't so much noise in the formation. I found I was getting hard of hearing with the ZP slider. Wink

Other contributing factors to my injury probably included: wearing 26 pounds of led around my waist and going horizontal faster, a pilot chute that was too well used and didn't immediately pull the parachute, line dump, and possibly questions about the bridal being too short. The opening was directly on-heading, so other than being horizontal or past, there are no body position issues on the injury. Oh, I do try to make sure that I am more upright when I deploy now to eliminate some of the snap on opening.


Premier faulknerwn  (D 17441)
Moderator
Aug 15, 2005, 9:55 AM
Post #13 of 35 (1844 views)
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Re: [krkeenan] w/ or w/o d bag [In reply to] Can't Post

I think it definitely is affected though by how heavy you are and how you pack. I never roll anything but just stuff the nose to the tail and its really unusual to have a opening hard enough that it hurts. They're usually quick but fine... I've never been able to tell much of a difference between having a bag or not on opening speeds. But as I was discussing with various folks this weekend, I think body weight has a lot to do with that.

The big boys were having hard openings in Perris this weekend whether they had bags or not (think the pilots liked the small load better because we got great cuts!)

I just really don't like deployment bags. I'd happily freepack my freefall canopies if I could (course a couple of spinning mals on tiny ellipticals caused by a bag spinning will do that for ya :-)

I'm not sure whether Dave had a bag or not when he chopped the 218 where all the A lines broke 'cept for the dacron end cell lines, but I do know that his reserve opened software subterminally on that jump than on the next jump when he had a bag lock :-)

W


parachutist  (D 25468)

Aug 15, 2005, 12:03 PM
Post #14 of 35 (1833 views)
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Re: [krkeenan] w/ or w/o d bag [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
However, I pack my L-143 in a bag all the time, and have fine openings. I mainly use it because it packs much faster and easier.

Packing speed depends a lot on the technique. Most D-bag packers are laboriously stowing each bight of line zig-zagged across the top of their D-bag while I've already got the canopy into the container tray. Freestowing lines in a tail pocket with only 1 rubber band saves a great deal of time in my experience.

Maybe your method is faster though.. I'd be interested to watch a demonstration. At one time I thought I could Pro Pack faster than any flat packers. Then I met Brian Pangburn :)

Avoiding injuries from hard opening also depends a great deal on technique. People can help avoid neck injuries by using neck muscles to push chin down against chest while throwing out. If your chin is against your chest, then your neck is not able to get a whiplash effect: The head has nowhere else to go and so it doesn't have the same inertia as it would if your head had been up. Head being up allows it to gain speed toward the earth and whack it at the neck's end range of motion.

Chris W.


BillyVance  (D 18895)

Aug 15, 2005, 10:21 PM
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Re: [parachutist] w/ or w/o d bag [In reply to] Can't Post

After seeing the Pangburn packing video, I believe you! Tongue

I've found myself tensing my neck and shoulders up pretty good in anticipation of the openings, all the while trying to maintain good position - nearly standing up with legs and arms loosely outstretched. Maybe that helps somewhat... but not as well as the chin on the chest might. Maybe it's just me, but I seem to be afraid of having a bad body position on deployment unless I'm looking straight ahead?


TVPB  (F 666)

Aug 16, 2005, 7:59 AM
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Re: [CRWCheryl] w/ or w/o d bag [In reply to] Can't Post

<<<<<and possibly questions about the bridal being too short.>>>>>

As long as you enjoyed yourself? I hope the honeymoon was long enough.

I better not give up my day job!!! Blush

Anyway. . .

The injury thing / hard openings.

Our team was training in the USA in 2003 mainly out of an Otter. We did a few loads out of a Cessna with a lessor experienced pilot and had some absolute ball tearer openings. One load in particular we had one canopy with broken lines and the rest of us were literally seeing stars (those small shiny dots moving around in front of your eyes). This has happened a few times over the years. Including one round of the world meet in 2004 out of the Turbo Let 410. Ouch. Pilot has gotta be briefed well.

I had back surgery about 13 years ago so I kind of relished my slot as No.4 on our Rotations team. It meant that I could roll the living crap out of my nose (and other techniques to slow my openings) and still get to the formation as required. But in hindsight, I couldn't have picked two better sports for a weak back (BASE jumping and CRW - lucky for those soft openings).

Injuries I've noticed amongst CRW jumpers:

- obvious ones include bruising around the thighs and inner shoulders
- brisk openings tend to compress the discs in the spine. Over time they will compress and wear out.
- catching may cause sprain and strain injuries. In rotations, shoulders tend to take the brunt of a rotator wizzing past at a 100 mph. But the injuries could occur from the fingertips to the shoulders, and from the toes to the buttocks.
- twisting (intentional and forced) can lead to sprains and strains around the body.
- then there are the head injuries from those hard riser docks. Ever had a boot or knee in your face?
- excessive weight on a jumper (due to poorly matched or collapsed canopies) could lead to further strains and sprains
- aahhhhh! The notorious line burns - fingers, hands, shins, thighs, and many other places depending on what funky manouvre you are doing a poor job at trying to pull. Wink
- landings - more care is required for CRW canopy landings as the flaring potential does not seem as good c.f. freefall canopies. Coccyx, back, knees, ankles, wrists, hands, etc, have all been injured.
- rsi from all that rigging work!!!


And then there are the after hours injuries:
- reputations.
- fitness levels (too much beer and pizza).
- standing in parachuting society - we are 2nd class citizens apparently. And not as cool as those freeflyers either. Wink


BillyVance  (D 18895)

Aug 16, 2005, 9:53 AM
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Re: [TVPB] w/ or w/o d bag [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
And then there are the after hours injuries:
- reputations.
- fitness levels (too much beer and pizza).
- standing in parachuting society - we are 2nd class citizens apparently. And not as cool as those freeflyers either. Wink

Laugh [Darth Vader voice]Yes, this is the dark side, come... come... come on over to the daaaaark side... [/Darth Vader voice] Laugh


Andrelr  (D 270)

Aug 16, 2005, 10:44 PM
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Re: [TVPB] w/ or w/o d bag [In reply to] Can't Post

My initial thought on reading this thread was "pack properly and stop whining". I then read your list of injuries and circumstances, Tom.
Now I know why I struggle to get out of bed on a cold morning....


TVPB  (F 666)

Aug 16, 2005, 10:52 PM
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Re: [Andrelr] w/ or w/o d bag [In reply to] Can't Post

Hi Andre

I forgot to add one.

Freeflyers tend to be younger punks.

CRW dogs are more mature (age, not behaviour). Wink

The getting out of bed thing is OLD AGE!!!!Laugh

Another ten years, and I'll catch up to you!! Wink

Take care.

Smile


CRWCheryl  (D License)

Aug 17, 2005, 6:01 PM
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Re: [parachutist] w/ or w/o d bag [In reply to] Can't Post

Hey Chris,

On that jump last August, I knew there was a delay and so I tensed my shoulders around my neck very hard. It probably saved my life. I do recommend tensing up that way.


CRWCheryl  (D License)

Aug 17, 2005, 6:03 PM
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Re: [TVPB] w/ or w/o d bag [In reply to] Can't Post

Hey, you left out a couple!

Like when you get your teeth realigned by gasping when you go into a wrap and get a line stuck in them.

Or from reaching up to grab the risers as they come off your back and having the rings slam your hand and break it.


parachutist  (D 25468)

Aug 17, 2005, 6:17 PM
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Re: [CRWCheryl] w/ or w/o d bag [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Hey Chris,

On that jump last August, I knew there was a delay and so I tensed my shoulders around my neck very hard. It probably saved my life. I do recommend tensing up that way.

I don't understand the purpose of that move, Cheryl. It could keep the head from going right to left if you pull your shoulders up against your neck, but that still doesn't seem to inhibit the forward movement which my head tends to do during hard openings. Maybe your shoulders are more flexible than mine, or maybe I'm not understanding the tensing you're referring to. Please elaborate; fillin the blanks for me :)

Chris W


BillyVance  (D 18895)

Aug 18, 2005, 8:47 AM
Post #23 of 35 (1702 views)
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Re: [parachutist] w/ or w/o d bag [In reply to] Can't Post

Well, that's what I do myself. It's more of a reflex than anything, in anticipation of the slammer I'm sure to get. It does help to have a thick neck crammed with muscles too... Wink


starkmtn  (D 22770)

Aug 18, 2005, 12:35 PM
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Re: [BillyVance] w/ or w/o d bag [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
It does help to have a thick neck crammed with muscles too... Wink

So what do _you_ do?

;)


CRWCheryl  (D License)

Aug 18, 2005, 5:37 PM
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Re: [parachutist] w/ or w/o d bag [In reply to] Can't Post

It's kind of like ducking or cringing.

You do pull your chin down, like you mentioned, Chris. Then I pulled my shoulders up and tightened my back, kind of like a very intense shrug.


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