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Getting Very Scary Out There

 

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GreenLight  (D 18859)

Jul 12, 2005, 3:19 PM
Post #51 of 137 (4373 views)
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Re: [RogerRamjet] Getting Very Scary Out There [In reply to] Can't Post

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Well, I'm with you on most of your comments, but the parachute was invented well before the airplane dude.....

OK can we get this straight? "Sport Parachutes" are "INTENDED" to make jumping from an airplane or any other vehicle for that matter that is high enough to use a parachute, survivable... Is that a better way of puting it or do you want ot get down to hard symantics... All I'm saying is that it's getting a lot more scary near the landing area and I'm not so sure I want to continue to put myself in danger of SOMEONE ELSE KILLING ME anymore.... Yes, someone could have taken me out on every skydive I've made that had more than just me on it. But let's face it, a lot of people are not looking or thinking before they grab that front riser and corkscrew to the ground. I don't want to be in thier way when they do foolish things. I try to be as safe as I can and look all around me from the time I get out the door to the time I land. I don't need to be killed by an idiot. I'd much rather be killed by liver disease...Mad


(This post was edited by GreenLight on Jul 12, 2005, 3:25 PM)


Skydivercop  (A 43131)

Jul 13, 2005, 6:26 AM
Post #52 of 137 (4329 views)
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Re: [bob.dino] Getting Very Scary Out There [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
Proper pattern skills just seem to be ignored anymore.

Did they ever exist? I've not been in the sport long enough to comment, but I'd guess not...

What's the problem here? If you have earned a license from FAI or USPA, you should have learned landing patterns during your FJC. I don't have a problem with swoopers (and I jump a big 235) as long as they state, as they do at my DZ, on the plane their intentions. I.E. downwind/upwind, right or left patterns. If this isn't happening at YOUR DZ, then YOU are at fault, because it shouldn't be tolerated by any jumper. People who don't want to raise a stink for safety's sake because they don't want to appear as lame-asses are just as bad as the kids who don't want to upsize because it isn't cool.

Now, I realize this won't fix all HP landings, and I agree totally a separate swoop/non-swoop area with OPPOSITE landing patterns would greatly assist in avoiding mid-air collisions. IMHO...


Premier wmw999  (D 6296)

Jul 13, 2005, 6:40 AM
Post #53 of 137 (4325 views)
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Re: [Skydivercop] Getting Very Scary Out There [In reply to] Can't Post

My FJC was in 1975, targeted toward a 172 (3 jumpers), under a round.

What you learn about pattern, and how much it's emphasized, will vary greatly with when, where, and who you learned from.

Kind of like PLFs.

Wendy W.


mjosparky  (D 5476)

Jul 13, 2005, 12:17 PM
Post #54 of 137 (4285 views)
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Re: [wmw999] Getting Very Scary Out There [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
My FJC was in 1975, targeted toward a 172 (3 jumpers), under a round.

What you learn about pattern, and how much it's emphasized, will vary greatly with when, where, and who you learned from.

Kind of like PLFs.

Wendy W.

I agree Wendy. The pattern I was taught was to locate the target, turn to face it and wait until touch down.Tongue

Sparky


Skydivercop  (A 43131)

Jul 13, 2005, 12:29 PM
Post #55 of 137 (4282 views)
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Re: [mjosparky] Getting Very Scary Out There [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
My FJC was in 1975, targeted toward a 172 (3 jumpers), under a round.

What you learn about pattern, and how much it's emphasized, will vary greatly with when, where, and who you learned from.

Kind of like PLFs.

Wendy W.

I agree Wendy. The pattern I was taught was to locate the target, turn to face it and wait until touch down.Tongue

Sparky

Not to be a smart aleck, but what are you telling me? When you coach/instruct a new jumper, you just tell them to turn and face the target until touch down? Of course I know you're not, so please don't get stuck on the differences in how you were taught then and what is taught now. As a matter of fact, you guys, the older jumpers, are the ones who developed our current way of life. I was simply trying to point out we're taught landing patterns (in this day and age). If you're not, there's something wrong, and if you don't follow a landing pattern there's something wrong. I sure as hell won't jump with a haphazard jumper.


airtwardo  (D License)

Jul 13, 2005, 12:35 PM
Post #56 of 137 (4281 views)
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Re: [Skydivercop] Getting Very Scary Out There [In reply to] Can't Post

Of course I know you're not, so please don't get stuck on the differences in how you were taught then and what is taught now. As a matter of fact, you guys, the older jumpers, are the ones who developed our current way of life. I was simply trying to point out we're taught landing patterns (in this day and age). If you're not, there's something wrong,

Quote:

Asked and answered your Honor...Wink

...I think you missed Wendy & Sparkys point.


Skydivercop  (A 43131)

Jul 13, 2005, 5:28 PM
Post #57 of 137 (4249 views)
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Re: [airtwardo] Getting Very Scary Out There [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Of course I know you're not, so please don't get stuck on the differences in how you were taught then and what is taught now. As a matter of fact, you guys, the older jumpers, are the ones who developed our current way of life. I was simply trying to point out we're taught landing patterns (in this day and age). If you're not, there's something wrong,

Quote:

Asked and answered your Honor...Wink

...I think you missed Wendy & Sparkys point.

Apparently I did...break it down for me. Pirate


airtwardo  (D License)

Jul 13, 2005, 5:56 PM
Post #58 of 137 (4244 views)
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Re: [Skydivercop] Getting Very Scary Out There [In reply to] Can't Post

What you learn about pattern, and how much it's emphasized, will vary greatly with when, where, and who you learned from. ~Wendy

we're taught landing patterns (in this day and age). If you're not, there's something wrong, ~Skydivercop

Quote:

Not to put words in anyone's mouth..but I take it they meant-

There isn't a national uniform code of patterns...
The way they're taught, the way they're applied.


You may have complete knowledge and understanding of the why and how...
but the guy that just cut you off may have learned something different somewhere else.


I personally travel quite a bit, I always ask at any DZ about several things before I jump there...including exit etiquette, landing hazards and pattern. Just as often as not, I get a blank stare when I go into detail about the pattern...
either that or it's completely different than X dropzone down the road...

or as you put it..."There is something wrong".


Skydivercop  (A 43131)

Jul 13, 2005, 6:10 PM
Post #59 of 137 (4242 views)
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Re: [airtwardo] Getting Very Scary Out There [In reply to] Can't Post

At the expense of sounding naive, and after only 4 years of jumping and 4 DZs, I've always been taught or heard the "low jumper has right of way." Also, as I stated earlier, the FJC out of the ISP covers landing patterns. Listening to you has definitely opened my eyes to when I visit new DZs. I must have been fortunate in my "career" up till now.


mjosparky  (D 5476)

Jul 13, 2005, 7:23 PM
Post #60 of 137 (4227 views)
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Re: [Skydivercop] Getting Very Scary Out There [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Not to be a smart aleck, but what are you telling me?

I was not telling you anything, I was posting to Wendy. CrazyWhat I was saying is that when I went through FJC in 1976 canopies were much different and life was simpler and slower.

In reply to:
As a matter of fact, you guys, the older jumpers, are the ones who developed our current way of life.
In reply to:

I think you will find that "the older jumpers" had very little to do with the way things are today. Our generation has a whole nother set of ways to kill our selves. And dying under an open canopy wasn't one of them.

Sparky


airtwardo  (D License)

Jul 13, 2005, 7:25 PM
Post #61 of 137 (4230 views)
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Re: [Skydivercop] Getting Very Scary Out There [In reply to] Can't Post

I've always been taught or heard the "low jumper has right of way."

Quote:

Funny you should say that!

LAST weekend at a small Midwest DZ...there was a similar argument that nearly came to blows.

WHO is the low man? The guy setting up for a 'basic' pattern beginning a turn from downwind to base..or the guy that 'was' above him seconds before, but is on a faster canopy and does a radical 90* turn which now puts him lower than jumper #1, and then does a 270 that drastically interrupts the first jumpers base to final approach?

Who is low man? the guy that lands first? pulls last?

There isn't a 'general' agreement on Procedures...
On terminology...If it's cut & dried in your mind, you
may not have the whole picture.
(Not 'you' personally....you know what I mean)Wink


There were two guys that were RIGHT in their own minds and came real close to being names on a report.


ryoder  (D 6663)

Jul 13, 2005, 7:34 PM
Post #62 of 137 (4227 views)
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Re: [mjosparky] Getting Very Scary Out There [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Our generation has a whole nother set of ways to kill our selves. And dying under an open canopy wasn't one of them.

Now let's give the younger generation credit; It took them years of research and development to perfect these new techniques! Wink


Skydivercop  (A 43131)

Jul 13, 2005, 7:55 PM
Post #63 of 137 (4223 views)
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Re: [airtwardo] Getting Very Scary Out There [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
I've always been taught or heard the "low jumper has right of way."

Quote:

Funny you should say that!

Who is low man? the guy that lands first? pulls last?

You answered that for yourself...the first jumper. The lower jumper under canopy has right of way. If a HP jumper sees me under him/her and "cuts" me off, they are simply wrong. I think we've come down to courtesy here, and we're drawing straws. I don't know what DZs you jump at, but please list them so I avoid them. At the DZs I've been to, and again that list is limited, I've yet to run into a problem of the HP crowd announcing their canopy "flight plan" on ride to altitude and giving us larger canopy jumpers a little leeway, so we avoid exactly what this thread started as. I choose to jump the larger canopy because I feel as someone wrote, it is there for me to survive THIS jump to make the NEXT jump. That's not to say swoopers are wrong...that's their bag and this is mine. But the swoopers/HP jumpers I jump with and in fact do RW with also announce and share their landing space with us more "traditional" jumpers. I hate to see deaths occur under operational canopies and I hate more we're arguing over the semantics of landing patterns and "who's first?" As someone stated, this is skydiving 101, as simple as it gets and we're sitting here making it more complex than it has to be.

My utmost respect to all jumpers, and even more to those who have differing aspects, as mine is/can be shallow. But lets not argue just for the sake of arguing. Who's the lower guy? The guy below you you're about to hook below and piss the fuck off, that's who! Sly

Can it not be said more simply?


bozo  (D 10154)

Jul 13, 2005, 8:24 PM
Post #64 of 137 (4213 views)
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Re: [mjosparky] Getting Very Scary Out There [In reply to] Can't Post

 

I think you will find that "the older jumpers" had very little to do with the way things are today. Our generation has a whole nother set of ways to kill our selves. And dying under an open canopy wasn't one of them.

Sparky
Well said Mike. Those of us that did survive are a relatively conservative bunch nowadays........oh god I cant believe I typed that. hahahahahaha

bozo


airtwardo  (D License)

Jul 13, 2005, 9:41 PM
Post #65 of 137 (4205 views)
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Re: [Skydivercop] Getting Very Scary Out There [In reply to] Can't Post

 I hate more we're arguing over the semantics of landing patterns and "who's first?" As someone stated, this is skydiving 101, as simple as it gets and we're sitting here making it more complex than it has to be.
Quote:

No one is arguing...

Here anyway, and as to the semantics of who's first or who's low...there are valid opinions for many view points.
I was merely trying to point out, with little success
I gather, that there many perceptions out there in regard to what to do and when.

This may be "Skydiving 101" as you put it...
but one of the PhD's of the sport was killed not long ago at his own dropzone in a pattern collision.
So perhaps is not as 'basic' as it seems.

What is it they say? If you don't see a problem, then maybe you're part of it.



In reply to:

I've yet to run into a problem of the HP crowd announcing their canopy "flight plan" on ride to altitude and giving us larger canopy jumpers a little leeway,


Quote:

Nothing negative toward you, so please don't take it wrong...if your bio is correct, you're averaging 20 jumps a year and have been to 4 different dropzones.
...It's no shock to me that you 'have yet to run into a problem' .....Yet.


In reply to:
I don't know what DZs you jump at, but please list them so I avoid them

Quote:

Well...in the last 29 years 11.5 months that I've been skydiving...I've jumped in 49 states and 6 countries...so you would be pretty much limited to dropzones in New Mexico.Wink


bob.dino  (E 2185)

Jul 13, 2005, 10:06 PM
Post #66 of 137 (4199 views)
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Re: [airtwardo] Getting Very Scary Out There [In reply to] Can't Post

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Well...in the last 29 years 11.5 months that I've been skydiving

Where are you going to be in a fortnight? That's a lot of beer you have to buy!

edit: actually, if you're in Perris between July 30 & August 3, or in LA on August 4th, the beer is on me. Even if only for the entertainment value of the Scary Stories from the Old Days thread Wink


(This post was edited by bob.dino on Jul 13, 2005, 10:07 PM)


mjosparky  (D 5476)

Jul 14, 2005, 12:34 AM
Post #67 of 137 (4188 views)
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Re: [Skydivercop] Getting Very Scary Out There [In reply to] Can't Post

Please understand this is not meant as a slam or a flame.

At 60 jumps in 3 years, split between 4 drop zones, you have not sent much time at any one DZ. On how many of those jumps were you in a landing pattern with more then 3 or 4 other canopies? And I dont mean other students or your instructor.

I have seen Jim (Airtwardo) fly a canopy into a demo target with 100 other canopies, of every size from 100 sq. ft. go fasts to 2 tandems. It was done without a problem because everyone followed the pattern described at the briefing. Without exception. So believe me, he is not trying to play a game of semantics or split straws with you. He is trying to get you to think.

In reply to:
I hate more we're arguing over the semantics of landing patterns and "who's first?" As someone stated, this is skydiving 101, as simple as it gets and we're sitting here making it more complex than it has to be.

If you feel it is all the simple, why are intelligent, educated and experienced skydivers dying due to collisions in the pattern?

Even if you have not been exposed to it or have not noticed it, there is a problem developing with mixing different styles of canopy landing in a common landing area.

Sparky


slug  (B License)

Jul 14, 2005, 12:37 AM
Post #68 of 137 (4188 views)
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Re: [ryoder] Getting Very Scary Out There [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
Our generation has a whole nother set of ways to kill our selves. And dying under an open canopy wasn't one of them.

Now let's give the younger generation credit; It took them years of research and development to perfect these new techniques! Wink

Hi

TrueUnsure

But they had to find a way to hurt themselves even with: AFF, a open canopy, AAD, RSL, pro track, full face helmets, booties, packers, wind tunnels, internet, coaching, USPA and all that $$$$.


R.I.P.


Skydivercop  (A 43131)

Jul 14, 2005, 3:43 AM
Post #69 of 137 (4173 views)
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Re: [mjosparky] Getting Very Scary Out There [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
At 60 jumps in 3 years, split between 4 drop zones, you have not sent much time at any one DZ. On how many of those jumps were you in a landing pattern with more then 3 or 4 other canopies? And I dont mean other students or your instructor.

LMAO...I love it when these turn into a "My dick is bigger than your dick" conversation. Just a joke...take this lightly fellas! Sly

In reply to:
If you feel it is all the simple, why are intelligent, educated and experienced skydivers dying due to collisions in the pattern?.

Ain't that the question of this thread? Could it be, these intelligent, educated and experienced skydivers got complacent at the wrong time/place, or were victims of being in the wrong time/place? I didn't realize I needed 1000 jumps to know how dangerous but SIMPLE landing should be. And before anyone starts on the accuracy, landing in winds, etc, etc, etc, I'm referring to simply getting your ass on the ground.

I'm not questioning any of y'alls qualifications/experience. But I think we've, at least I have, hit on the problem of deaths at landing. We, on this thread alone, have made the business of landing too complicated. Read: LANDING IS SIMPLY SURVIVING THIS JUMP FOR THE NEXT. If you choose to do 300 ft hook turns for a downwind landing, you should announce those intentions on the plane, so ALL the jumpers know who is doing what. We do it for the freefall portion, so where's the problem doing it for landing? I don't see where that is a problem. I call it courtesy, sorry if that inconveniences anyone, but my life is not an inconvenience. You alluded to a great jumpers death...shouldn't we be trying to learn from that? Isn't that the best way to honor both his death and his contributions to this sport? My 2 cents...and then some! Wink

Been great talking/sparring with you guys.


Premier wmw999  (D 6296)

Jul 14, 2005, 6:26 AM
Post #70 of 137 (4158 views)
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Re: [airtwardo] Getting Very Scary Out There [In reply to] Can't Post

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Not to put words in anyone's mouth..but I take it they meant

I like it when you do that. You make it sound like I really had a well-thought-out post.

But yeah, that's about what I was thinking. I've done some traveling in my second skydiving career (not a lot), and haven't seen a whole lot of attention paid to pattern. A BIG picture in manifest of
a. standard pattern for the dropzone (overlaid on the DZ
b. if there are separate landing areas, where they are
c. rules for landing

would go a long way toward setting expectations for most jumpers. If we wait until we have a perfect solution we'll all be swooping our wheelchairs, either because of age or attrition.

Wendy W.


Premier wmw999  (D 6296)

Jul 14, 2005, 6:29 AM
Post #71 of 137 (4159 views)
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Re: [Skydivercop] Getting Very Scary Out There [In reply to] Can't Post

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I love it when these turn into a "My dick is bigger than your dick" conversation.

First, I have a VERY tiny dick TongueCool

But second -- by your username, I'm going to figure you might be a cop. When someone who's been a rookie for 7 months (even if at a decent-sized department) begins to tell everyone "how it is" what's your reaction?

Yes, you listen, because he's seeing things how people present them, and it can be excellent input into what needs to change in the program. But there are a lot of things he just hasn't done, or hasn't had to resort to. In his world, the rules all work still.

Wendy W.


Spizzzarko

Jul 14, 2005, 7:13 AM
Post #72 of 137 (4149 views)
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Re: [wmw999] Getting Very Scary Out There [In reply to] Can't Post

First, I have a VERY tiny dick

And your balls havn't decended yet either. hahahahaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa
Sometimes I crack myself up.LaughLaugh


As far the smaller canopy guys out there, I am one of them. I jump a Velocity 103, and I like to swoop on my landings. With that being said, nomatter what kind of turn I am doing from base to final, I always fly a pattern. It is usually a crosswind (2000'), to a downwind (1700'), to a base (1200'), with a right hand 270 to final (750'-800'). I find the argument between the two dudes that Artwardo speaks of to be a mute point. These little canopy's really do have quite a bit of lift, and if you don't have the skill to hang out in brakes while a lot of the traffic clears, then you shouldn't be jumping as small of a canopy. Also jumping these canopy's requires you to think far ahead as to what is going to happen with your pattern, and what a lot of the other people are doing. If you cannot do that on every jump, then you don't need to be jumping these canopy's. If you feel that you need to land in the main landing area, on every jump, then you don't need to be jumping these canopy's. The main landing area now adays is pretty damn dangerous. I'm sure in the 60's and 70's all you had to do was worry about someone going in on you. I would have to liken that to being struck by lightening. I'm sure there weren't to many double fatalities because of that. Now you have to worry about some jack ass flying way out of his realm of abilities, and pegging you. I have seen people get hit, and I have hit someone before. It's un-cool, trust me. I am now through speaking. Go back to comparing dick sizes. End communication.


Premier skybytch  (D License)

Jul 14, 2005, 7:52 AM
Post #73 of 137 (4146 views)
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Re: [Skydivercop] Getting Very Scary Out There [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
If you choose to do 300 ft hook turns for a downwind landing, you should announce those intentions on the plane, so ALL the jumpers know who is doing what.

Okay, I can see that working in a Cessna; there's only three or four other jumpers and you're all sitting pretty close together. I can't see that working in an Otter, Skyvan, Casa, etc.


bozo  (D 10154)

Jul 14, 2005, 8:13 AM
Post #74 of 137 (4138 views)
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Re: [wmw999] Getting Very Scary Out There [In reply to] Can't Post

  

But second -- by your username, I'm going to figure you might be a cop. When someone who's been a rookie for 7 months (even if at a decent-sized department) begins to tell everyone "how it is" what's your reaction?

Wendy W.
Great Analolgy, Wendy. I dont think hes going to get it though because hes got all the answers down at 60 jumps.
I wish I was as smart at 60 jumps...maybe then I wouldnt walk funny today..but then again I also wouldnt have the wealth of knowlege I have.
Hopefully this guy will survive to gain some.

bozo


airtwardo  (D License)

Jul 14, 2005, 8:22 AM
Post #75 of 137 (4131 views)
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Re: [bob.dino] Getting Very Scary Out There [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
if you're in Perris between July 30 & August 3, or in LA on August 4th, the beer is on me.

Quote:


I saw your post about LAX...Cool

I wish I could be out there but...Unsure

I'll be here

And from there to WFFC...Smile

You going to the convention?
(either one)Wink


(This post was edited by airtwardo on Jul 14, 2005, 8:48 AM)


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