Forums: Skydiving: Skydiving History & Trivia:
Getting Very Scary Out There

 

First page Previous page 1 2 3 4 5 6 Next page Last page  View All

itllclear  (D 6366)

Jul 9, 2005, 7:29 AM
Post #26 of 137 (4494 views)
Shortcut
Re: [GreenLight] Getting Very Scary Out There [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Why the hell should I go land in the dirt when I'm doing things right. I'm landing into the wind like a safe pilot would. Why should I give up the grass for a bunch of A holes who want to land downwind at high rates of speed? Unsure

Unfortunately for us, the DZO's seem to care about swoopers more than us sane ones.

Until we win the lottery and open a DZ which has a separate, safe, grass landing area for sane jumpers, we have to decide whether the longer walk or longer drive to the alternate DZ is worth our life.

BSBD.

Harry


ryoder  (D 6663)

Jul 9, 2005, 9:09 AM
Post #27 of 137 (4486 views)
Shortcut
Re: [GreenLight] Getting Very Scary Out There [In reply to] Can't Post

First, it is interesting that you started this thread in the History & Trivia forum. I suspect that is because you figured you would get a more mature and reasonable discussion.Wink

Second, I have never had any great desire to take up swooping, likely due to the unforgetable experience, (when I had 40 jumps), of watching the most experienced guy on the DZ drill himself into the ground 100 feet from where I was standing, breaking more bones that I can remember, and lying there screaming with blood coming out of his nose, mouth and ears. He spent months in the hospital. This happened in the mid SEVENTIES. He was the only guy I knew who did hook turns. I was quite surprised to see them "re-invented" in the nineties.

Last, I think the following link is a great analogy for the peer pressure in skydiving:

http://news.yahoo.com/...ODdxdHBhBHNlYwM5NjQ-


GreenLight  (D 18859)

Jul 9, 2005, 6:41 PM
Post #28 of 137 (4454 views)
Shortcut
Re: [ryoder] Getting Very Scary Out There [In reply to] Can't Post

Ya, LOL! A lotta good it would a done in the Swooping and Canopy Control section eh?


sundevil777  (D License)

Jul 9, 2005, 7:15 PM
Post #29 of 137 (4446 views)
Shortcut
Re: [GreenLight] Getting Very Scary Out There [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
What do you think would happen if aircraft pilots all over the world decided that they wanted to buzz the runways before every landing? The FAA would be very busy me thinks...

Quite right.

Why is it that pilots haven't started a new discipline where the common pilot (not just airshow acrobats) dives the plane at the ground, leveling out with just a few inches to spare? Because it will not be so long before you screw up.


pms07  (D 7571)

Jul 9, 2005, 8:28 PM
Post #30 of 137 (4434 views)
Shortcut
Re: [mjosparky] Getting Very Scary Out There [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
You say that 37 out of 97 fatalities worldwide were landing fatalities. How many of those were intentional swoops, and how many were low/panic turns?

Does it matter? They still died under a good canopy. The only reason we wear a parachute when we skydive is to land safely so we can do it again.

Sparky

It doesn't matter because in many cases the exact type of accident is really a function of the circumstances in play but related to the bigger problem; low turn, swoop accident, panic yaddi yaddi, canopy collision...all can be symptoms of the vague or not enforced pattern rules, lack of flight discipline, poor canopy control and piloting skills we see every weekend. Nick's post is worth reading and giving some serious thought.

For me, I jump less now than ever over the past 32 years. Family and career reasons are a factor but the risk of dying under my open and perfectly functioning main canopy at some drop zones is an even bigger factor...


NickDG  (D 8904)

Jul 10, 2005, 4:09 AM
Post #31 of 137 (4419 views)
Shortcut
Re: [GreenLight] Getting Very Scary Out There [In reply to] Can't Post

>>I'll be spending my jump money and time doing something a little more safe like playing hopscotch on the freeway...<<

Hi Larry,

We got us a little tower down here . . . Big canopies and everything. Anytime brother . . .

NickD Smile
BASE 194


Andy9o8  (D License)

Jul 10, 2005, 3:59 PM
Post #32 of 137 (4393 views)
Shortcut
Re: [skr] Getting Very Scary Out There [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
I think the evolution into our current state of parachuting skill and canopy flying is the biggest collective fuck up I've seen so far........

.....I slowed way down in the 80s and when I got active again in 1993 I was amazed at what I saw people doing under canopy, and it wasn't a good amazed either.

Skr- That was much like my experience, too, although, I'm younger than you (relatively speaking Wink) and have a hell of a lot fewer total jumps than you. I took a long hiatus myself due to family & career (I'm in a mixed marriage; she's a Whuffo). When I put my jumping on hold, by far the most common cause of fatalities was terminal impact. Used to be, once you had a landable canopy over your head, your life was saved, and that was that. Upon my return to the sport, my biggest culture shock was not the advances in gear technology or the sophistication of the jumping (which I was mentally prepared for), it was how many people were dying under good canopies. After I returned to jumping for my "second" time, the first 2 "incidents" of people I actually knew were canopy collisions. The first one was a fatality; the jumper got hung up with another canopy, & cut away too low to go to reserve. The second was another 2-jumper canopy hang-up; he got loose but his main was fucked up; he had trouble cutting away so he dumped his reserve into his main, and it only partially inflated. He survived, but just barely, and was in critical condition for about 3 weeks. Anyhow when this new reality first dawned on me it was a Rip Van Winkle kind of experience. At first, it left me amazed. Now it just makes me sick.

We've been talking mostly about "more" (?) experienced jumpers screwing up under canopy, but a word about students, too, and more than just under canopy. AFF, AFP, etc. has its good points; I'm not for going back to the ole daze when S/L progression sometimes took so damn long to get to a freefall long enough to get past the sensory overload that it was ridiculous. But between the canopies and the really early multi-ways, a lot of these 30-jump students are in way over their heads and are accidents waiting to happen. Just look at the breathless posts from the AFF students recounting how on their 4th-ever jump they really were never in control for 40 full seconds of freefall, or basically just couldn't process all their shit and their AFFI had to pull for them to save their life. Then when they "graduate" after barely a few more "accelerated" jumps, they think they're ready for 10-ways, head-downs and swooping. I get shivers reading those posts.

I almost (almost) wonder why we even bother having this collective conversation, in this and so many other threads, or with fellow "more mature" jumpers in the beer tent. When we speak to each other, we're just preaching to the choir. Most of the DZO's won't listen to us; the newer jumpers all tune us out because when we speak, all they hear is their parents telling them to eat their vegetables, the USPA is almost as useless as the BPA (and if that's the level of comparison, someone please shoot me). We all say, "Why should I have to land way out just to be safe from Joe Hotshit, make HIM land way out, or let him start his own all-swooping DZ." I'd like to think we could collectively campaign to change the culture, starting with the DZO's, but to be honest, I'm not holding my breath waiting for it to happen.


mjosparky  (D 5476)

Jul 10, 2005, 8:08 PM
Post #33 of 137 (4367 views)
Shortcut
Re: [GreenLight] Getting Very Scary Out There [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
And as far as "Good Swoopers" verses "Bad Swoopers".... Who the hell can tell the difference on your base leg?

Larry,

It is easy to tell the good from the bad. The "Good Swoopers" are the one's that really do know how to handle their canopy and can land in a crowd without causing a ripple. The ones that cause all the problems are immature, selfish little shitheads that believe they have a right to do just what they want, anywhere they want and anytime they want. What they need it to get their ass kicked 2 or 3 times a week for a couple of months or until they understand that their rights stop where other people's start.

Sparky


jdfreefly  (D 24037)

Jul 11, 2005, 2:31 PM
Post #34 of 137 (4298 views)
Shortcut
Re: [GreenLight] Getting Very Scary Out There [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Ya know I've heard a lot of people say "Just land out if you're worried" and I say this... The grass was put there for people, all people to enjoy a nice clean landing without getting dirty or scraped up in the hard dirty dirt. Why the hell should I go land in the dirt when I'm doing things right. I'm landing into the wind like a safe pilot would. Why should I give up the grass for a bunch of A holes who want to land downwind at high rates of speed? I can just take my money to a quieter DZ where they only have one plane and a lot more grass... Can you say Taft?
The landing area closest to the packing area is ALWAYS the most contested piece of airspace at the DZ. Regardless of who is vieing for that airspace, if you don't have confidence in their ability to not take you out, you should land elsewhere.

I am a swooper, and yesterday I landed on the other side of the runway because I did not like the looks of the traffic I saw developing. I had a longer walk then normal, but it was worth it.

In reply to:
The parachute was intended to make jumping out of an airplane survivable. Not become a sport unto itself...

The parachute was intended to make jumping from a plane that was going to crash survivable. With your line of thinking, skydiving shouldn't be a sport either.

In reply to:
And I could care less if these idiots frapped in one right after the other all day long as long as I can enjoy the sport as safely as possible too.
If that was the majority opinion of people in this sport, the sport would have long ago been regulated out of existence. I care because I don't ever want to see a fellow skydiver hurt. Wether it is a close friend, or the guy who forced me to abort my swoop and fly a straight in aproach because he was sashaying in the area I was about to fly thorugh. It saddens me to hear another skydiver have such an apathetic attitude towards something so serious. I understand that you have 23 years in the sport, and have probably burried more friends than I have, but that doesn't excuse your jadedness.
In reply to:
But when it becomes dangerous just to exsist in the air or on the ground, well you can count me out.
It has always been dangerous to to exist in the air and on the ground. If you think it isn't you're fooling yourself.
In reply to:
If there is even one out of a thousand chance that one of these idiots can get wrapped up with another jumper through swooping then I say ban it. It's not worth the chance.
Following that line of logic, we should ban camera jumps, four-way, more than one group out of the same airplane....infact, we should just have one skydiver per load doing a hop and pop. That would be the ultimate in safety without actually banning skydiving all together.

I agree that things need to change. Believe me, I have been agonizing over this for the past week, but I think when you start banning anything in this sport, it is a mistake.

I don't ever want to watch another friend die, but regulating the sport back to where it was 10 years ago won't stop that from happening.


GreenLight  (D 18859)

Jul 11, 2005, 3:04 PM
Post #35 of 137 (4290 views)
Shortcut
Re: [jdfreefly] Getting Very Scary Out There [In reply to] Can't Post

You can justify this activity all you want. It's why I didn't put this post in the Swooping section...


jdfreefly  (D 24037)

Jul 11, 2005, 3:34 PM
Post #36 of 137 (4280 views)
Shortcut
Re: [GreenLight] Getting Very Scary Out There [In reply to] Can't Post

And you can dismiss my arguments all you want. I am not attempting to justify someone doing a radical high speed landing in traffic, mainly because I think it is irresponsible.

Believe it or not, I do value your opinion, and the opinion of others who have posted here, it's why I read this forum. The young jumpers are this sports lifeblood, but the older ones are its heart.

All I am trying to say, is that there has to be a better solution then saying, "BAN IT!". If you think my argument has no merit, so be it.


GreenLight  (D 18859)

Jul 11, 2005, 4:19 PM
Post #37 of 137 (4273 views)
Shortcut
Re: [jdfreefly] Getting Very Scary Out There [In reply to] Can't Post

I wish there were another way to deal with it. The DZOs don't seem to want to do anything about it. The dealers and manufacturers don't seem to be doing anything about it. (not that they could) I don't honestly know what the answer is. So I appreciate your comments also.

My young friend who just purchased an 89 foot canopy says that no matter what we do to make the sport safe, someone will find another way to kill themselves and that this process of elimination is something that will always exist.. I hope he's wrong but I tend to agree that it might be a reality.

You are right that the landing area nearest the packing areas and main DZ areas will be the most sought for. Nothing we can do about that either. Maybe we slower folks should go out there and grow our own grassy area to land on... I just hate the dirt, that's all. A handicapped landing area maybe?Sly


GreenLight  (D 18859)

Jul 11, 2005, 5:28 PM
Post #38 of 137 (4260 views)
Shortcut
Re: [GreenLight] Getting Very Scary Out There [In reply to] Can't Post

OK how about this line of thought. I just went to the Swooping and Canopy Control board to see what I could figure out. This is what I've come up with.

Swooping and Canopy Control has become a sport unto itself. But our "Landing Areas" have been taken over by swoopers much in the same way that our mountain roads and highways have been taken over by sport motorcycle racing enthusiasts. Just as our roads were not designed to act as race tracks, our only green landing area was not put there originally for sport swoopers. So why doesn't the DZO make a special landing area for those swooper guys and gals so that us slow folks and students can land in a nice safe environment as it was intended to be years before swoopering was invented? If you can't control the playboys then why not put them in a special area so they don't affect and kill the people who don't swoop?

Another thing... How come these people who get all wrapped up at 150 feet aren't yanking sliver? At that altitude that's the first thing I would be doing... I don't get it.


jdfreefly  (D 24037)

Jul 11, 2005, 6:01 PM
Post #39 of 137 (4255 views)
Shortcut
Re: [GreenLight] Getting Very Scary Out There [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Swooping and Canopy Control has become a sport unto itself. But our "Landing Areas" have been taken over by swoopers much in the same way that our mountain roads and highways have been taken over by sport motorcycle racing enthusiasts. Just as our roads were not designed to act as race tracks, our only green landing area was not put there originally for sport swoopers. So why doesn't the DZO make a special landing area for those swooper guys and gals so that us slow folks and students can land in a nice safe environment as it was intended to be years before swoopering was invented?
I certainly wouldn't have a problem with this. If my dz set up a swoop and a non swoop area, I would abide by those rules.

But this would only solve part of the problem. In my opinion, there still needs to be a patern, and more restraint on the part of the people who are choosing to do high performance landings. This is my current personal research project.
In reply to:
Another thing... How come these people who get all wrapped up at 150 feet aren't yanking sliver? At that altitude that's the first thing I would be doing... I don't get it.
I saw the crosskeys incident, and the only guess I can offer is that it was just too quick. Both of them were under sub 100 sq foot canopies and the time to impact was very small.


Premier PhreeZone  (D License)
Moderator
Jul 11, 2005, 7:23 PM
Post #40 of 137 (4247 views)
Shortcut
Re: [GreenLight] Getting Very Scary Out There [In reply to] Can't Post

Some of the most eratic patterns I've seen flown (and hardest landings too) are by those people under Foils and Classics. Wink

The entire concept of a proper pattern seems to fly out the window as soon as someone gets a target. The target can either be swooping the beer line, leanding near the packing area, sinking it into the disc or aiming for the peas. I've seen it at DZ's across the US that if someone decides to go for the Peas suddenly at 75 feet they don't mind turning to go crosswind since they had a poor approach up to that point. They were completly unaware they had people following them in that need to scatter now and that one person is all it takes to screw up the pattern for the entire load. The Beer line swooper is just as bad since they want the shortest walk and usually perfer a smooth slick surface to slide out their landings on since they have excess speed usually. This involves the grass and they will fly whats best for them to get there with the best swoop they can get. Spiralers are an issue too. They ignore the pattern and just try to get down fast but then set up for a low speed landing making everyone guess where they are trying to land.

I'm not perfect and I don't fly the best patterns all the time. The issue goes way beyond just swoopers, its an issue that touches every jumper. Proper pattern skills just seem to be ignored anymore.


airtwardo  (D License)

Jul 11, 2005, 8:53 PM
Post #41 of 137 (4250 views)
Shortcut
Re: [PhreeZone] Getting Very Scary Out There [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Some of the most eratic patterns I've seen flown (and hardest landings too) are by those people under Foils and Classics.


Quote:

I've not had that experience...

If someone is shooting serious accuracy, it's actually a well thought out and practiced pattern.

Maybe a last second decision to 'go for the disk'
would be a problem...but if the jumper knows
what they're doing...
they are 'set-up' so to speak above a grand.


bob.dino  (E 2185)

Jul 11, 2005, 10:21 PM
Post #42 of 137 (4239 views)
Shortcut
Re: [PhreeZone] Getting Very Scary Out There [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Proper pattern skills just seem to be ignored anymore.

Did they ever exist? I've not been in the sport long enough to comment, but I'd guess not...


slug  (B License)

Jul 11, 2005, 10:34 PM
Post #43 of 137 (4237 views)
Shortcut
Re: [bob.dino] Getting Very Scary Out There [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
Proper pattern skills just seem to be ignored anymore.

Did they ever exist? I've not been in the sport long enough to comment, but I'd guess not...

Hi dino

Nothing personnelCool

Bingo we have a winner!!!!!! Unsure

Unless your kidding Shockedyou have just expresed the root of the problem, confusion etc that everyone has been argueing about for the last couple of days in various threads & forums.

IMO we're talking about skydive 101. It's not your fault that you didn't recieve the right training, or that some of the DZO's don't enforce the basic's.

to bad so sadFrown

Lets learn something from the incidents so they don't happen again. No telling how many canopy collisions or near miss's have happened befor now.

R.I.P.

R.I.P.


bob.dino  (E 2185)

Jul 12, 2005, 4:42 AM
Post #44 of 137 (4217 views)
Shortcut
Re: [slug] Getting Very Scary Out There [In reply to] Can't Post

Don't worry; I understand and can fly a pattern just fine. I am, however, cynical that folk were ever better than they currrently are at following the pattern.


gkc1436  (D 18232)

Jul 12, 2005, 5:23 AM
Post #45 of 137 (4208 views)
Shortcut
Re: [GreenLight] Getting Very Scary Out There [In reply to] Can't Post

>The parachute was intended to make jumping out of an airplane survivable. Not become a sport unto itself...

and airplanes were made for flying, not dropping lawn darts...


Premier PhreeZone  (D License)
Moderator
Jul 12, 2005, 6:06 AM
Post #46 of 137 (4198 views)
Shortcut
Re: [airtwardo] Getting Very Scary Out There [In reply to] Can't Post

It may be a well thought out pattern to shoot the wind line and approach the tuffet for them, but for the remaining canopies trying to follow them into the landing area its not the 1000 downwind, 500 crosswind, 300 final pattern. Putting a canopy trying to sink it in infront of a buch of canopies that are going much faster (and I'm even talking just about everyone, not just swoopers) leads to the rest of the following groups having to split traffic around the canopy like a big wall. On a few DZ's where the peas/tuffet is in the middle of the landing area you cause traffic jams behind you.

Its like someone traveling 45 mph in the center lane of interstate, people even doing the speed limit have to do a lot to avoid you and you cause lots of lane switching behind you and you might not even see it. True airplane patterns were taught during my FJC and I remember flying them when I was the only canopy in the air, but once I started flying with other canopies then I had to quit doing it since it did'nt mesh well with what everyone else was flying.


(This post was edited by PhreeZone on Jul 12, 2005, 9:33 AM)


RogerRamjet  (D License)

Jul 12, 2005, 6:13 AM
Post #47 of 137 (4198 views)
Shortcut
Re: [bob.dino] Getting Very Scary Out There [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
Proper pattern skills just seem to be ignored anymore.

Did they ever exist? I've not been in the sport long enough to comment, but I'd guess not...

Not really, at least when I was jumping. A couple of things have changed since then that make the lack of pattern adherence more dangerous.

When the canopies flying around were Paracommanders and Cheapos, there really wasn't much of an issue.

Then the Strato-Star and 7 cell Foil were introduced and RW jumpers suddenly had high performance (for the time) canopies. Still, there wasn't much going on pattern wise or collision wise. Why? Well, I think two things have changed since then that have made all this much scarier:

1) Canopy performance has increased to an incredible level. I went to the Keys boogie a few months ago and was stunned by how fast the canopies fly even in a straight line.

2) Swooping/hook turning has become common. These canopies can attain 100/fps decent rates and very high forward speeds compared to the squares of old.

This has caused the relative safe space between flying canopies to be greatly extended in my opinion. If someone makes a hook (90, 180, 270, whatever) to gain speed for a swoop, they have radically reduced the time required to avoid an unforeseen issue. Those issues, other canopies that maybe made a turn of their own during your spiral, are also moving faster than they used to, exacerbating the problem. This is what scares me, not that you can't scan and get the sight picture of where everyone is and will be, but that during the (short?) period you lose the picture, one or more of those people may have made a turn. Since you and they are moving so much faster these days, the margins for error have gotten very narrow.

I have one hook turn on a Strato-Star which has to be silly slow compared to what I saw at the boogie. I always felt relatively safe in a sky full of Strato-Stars and 7 Cell Foils back then. It scared me just to watch from the ground at the boogie...

I'm not against high performance canopies (I had the first Stato-Star in Florida) or swooping for that matter. I do see that mixing those that just want to land with those that want to swoop is dangerous.

If I come back into the fold, I will be doing some research into where and how people are landing before deciding on where I land.


RogerRamjet  (D License)

Jul 12, 2005, 6:19 AM
Post #48 of 137 (4195 views)
Shortcut
Re: [GreenLight] Getting Very Scary Out There [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
The parachute was intended to make jumping out of an airplane survivable. Not become a sport unto itself...

Well, I'm with you on most of your comments, but the parachute was invented well before the airplane dude.....Wink


Premier wmw999  (D 6296)

Jul 12, 2005, 8:35 AM
Post #49 of 137 (4168 views)
Shortcut
Re: [RogerRamjet] Getting Very Scary Out There [In reply to] Can't Post

There's another thread in Safety and Training on the same topic; some of the same discussion, but different players.

I don't really remember much being said about a landing or flight pattern. It was pretty much all about landing close and soft. But, as Roger said, canopies were slower. Tippy-toe landings were the desired thing, and there weren't a lot of (if any, outside of boogies) multi-big-plane DZs going. Spaceland had an Otter going back to the 70's, but just the one. We'd mix it with a 206, but that almost always carried students, so mixing it up wasn't the same kind of issue.

One thing I noticed on coming back into the sport was the lack of attention given to reminders about the standard pattern for a drop zone (they do work it with students at the new Spaceland, but not as far as I know with visitors or returning jumpers). Even a sign somewhere prominent saying something like "Left hand pattern is standard" would be good. I only remember hearing that at bigways.

Of course, it could just be that I smell bad and no one talks to me anyway Tongue

Wendy W.


Premier skybytch  (D License)

Jul 12, 2005, 8:42 AM
Post #50 of 137 (4166 views)
Shortcut
Re: [PhreeZone] Getting Very Scary Out There [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
The issue goes way beyond just swoopers, its an issue that touches every jumper.

So what can every jumper do?

1) Landing order - try to land with other canopies of the same class/wingloading as yours. Swoopers first, mid range next, big ol boats last. Spiral or fly in brakes as needed to achieve spacing.

2) Be predictable. Fly your pattern the same way every time. Let others know when you plan to alter it (ie do a high performance landing approach instead of the standard pattern you normally do).

3) Insist that your dz at least informally designate a seperate high performance landing area, with a setup area clear of the standard pattern of the regular landing area. Limiting this area to north/south or east/west landing directions depending on predominant wind direction will increase the predictability of the people using it.

4) Don't hog the pattern or the landing area. Plan your pattern and approach so you don't interfere with anyone else's pattern and approach. This means no spiraling below 1000', no S turns on final, etc. The only exception to this is if you know you are the only canopy in the air.

5) If a landing direction has been predetermined or already set, use it. Don't chase the wind indicator.

Please add to this list...


First page Previous page 1 2 3 4 5 6 Next page Last page  View All

Forums : Skydiving : Skydiving History & Trivia

 


Search for (options)