Forums: Skydiving Disciplines: Photography and Video:
Tandem Handcams The battle!

 

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velocityphoto  (D 18988)

Jun 14, 2005, 3:40 PM
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Tandem Handcams The battle! Can't Post

 Some tandem masters at our dz have started doing handcam video's at our dz which is putting me clear out of business. Is there anyone else out there having this same problem ? It's pretty rough trying to sell something anymore ,i'm usually sitting on the ground now .It really sucks having thousands wrapped up in equipment and nothing to do with it! Any suggestions anybody? :( any opinions anyone?


(This post was edited by velocityphoto on Jun 14, 2005, 5:14 PM)


linestretch  (D 21060)

Jun 14, 2005, 3:53 PM
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Re: [velocityphoto] Tandem Handcams The battle! [In reply to] Can't Post

hope this doesn't sound to raw, but maybe get a tandem rating and start doing them yourself. Then do video for fun, and the here and there tandem vids. No point in getting bitter about it, if it's not this person doing it, it will be another.


chopchop  (D 25001)

Jun 14, 2005, 3:59 PM
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Re: [velocityphoto] Tandem Handcams The battle! [In reply to] Can't Post

Go make fun-jumps! That is why you started skydiving to begin with, isn't it? FUN? Go get some.. Wink

If the video cash is drying up, and you need to make $$ skydiving, you could always pack, get a rating or change to a dz where that is not a problem yet..

Either way, good luck figuring it out. Smile I'd be bummed if that were happening at my dz..


(This post was edited by chopchop on Jun 14, 2005, 3:59 PM)


velocityphoto  (D 18988)

Jun 14, 2005, 4:15 PM
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Re: [chopchop] Tandem Handcams The battle! [In reply to] Can't Post

 I have a few ratings ,but i didnt invest this much money to do tandems all the time I like flying and swooping to much for that ya know .It just really bites it's hard to have fun jumping when ya don't have any money coming in from doing camera .


pcalandra  (D 9759)

Jun 14, 2005, 4:44 PM
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Re: [velocityphoto] Tandem Handcams The battle! [In reply to] Can't Post

Why not try to hook up with those guys/girls doing handcam and offer inside/outside video packages as an option? Personally, I don't like the handcam stuff and lucky for me I guess, nobody else around here does either, so it isn't a problem. Not that I don't think ther's a place for it, but I just don't see it replacing us and outside video in general, it's a whole different perspective.


jimmytavino  (A 3914)

Jun 14, 2005, 5:42 PM
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Re: [pcalandra] Tandem Handcams The battle! [In reply to] Can't Post

 

.
.
.
Unimpressed I second this excellent idea of pcalandra's
It's all in the marketing.... Inside AND outside video correctly edited and blended can REALLY result in a first rate experience and video for the student.
The instant reactions which can be "caught" by the handcam as soon as the main opens, coupled with the NECESSARY outside shots of canopy flight and especially Landing....
( How can Handcam landing footage compare with a video person's "on the spot" perspective???? ) Your staff needs to work this out together,,, and NOT create an "either / or" situation...
Of course places that use a cessna will likely just send up 2 students... 2 T masters,,,two Handcams and that's that....UnsureMadPirateFrown
What kind of aircraft are you using
vphoto???????????? .... good luckUnsure Smile


Canuck

Jun 14, 2005, 5:57 PM
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Re: [velocityphoto] Tandem Handcams The battle! [In reply to] Can't Post

Simple. Make a kick ass promo video of what a tandem video should look like (read: outside video) and let the hand-camers do their best to come up with a promo that matches it. Show them both to prospective buyers, and if you're doing your job well, it will be no contest.

The other thing is to push the still pictures, which are honestly where the value is. Someone might watch their tandem video a dozen times, but that glossy 8x10 hangs on their wall for years. If you don't have still equipment - invest a little more!

Vive la videographer!

Canuck


velocityphoto  (D 18988)

Jun 14, 2005, 6:03 PM
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Re: [jimmytavino] Tandem Handcams The battle! [In reply to] Can't Post

cesna's so im f##ked,and the tandem masters wont work with me ,at least 1 of them thinks hes better than everyone .


pcalandra  (D 9759)

Jun 14, 2005, 6:19 PM
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Re: [velocityphoto] Tandem Handcams The battle! [In reply to] Can't Post

This sport is filled with egos, rather than get in a pissing contest work it out. I'll bet that sooener or later the tandem people will get sick and tired of the extra work anyway.


blazetailman  (D 22029)

Jun 14, 2005, 6:36 PM
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Re: [velocityphoto] Tandem Handcams The battle! [In reply to] Can't Post

line stretch, I think it your response was a bit harsh,

Vphoto, where do you jump? does your dz have a decent tandem business?

I think for the average tanem master:
-they can not guarntee a good video if the student is a handful
-the camera can be a saftey hazerd
-the student/customer does not get as good of a product
-the student/customer loses the visual of the camera flyer in front of them
-The dropzone loses money, since tandems is business they lose a slot on the plane and getting the customer a quality video of their first jump experience.

my 2 bits


velocityphoto  (D 18988)

Jun 14, 2005, 7:05 PM
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Re: [blazetailman] Tandem Handcams The battle! [In reply to] Can't Post

canton airsports in ohio ,our tandem's have picked up this season but all we have is cesna's . I'm hoping to work something out this weekend with the dz owner .But i'm butting heads with 1 tandem master about the whole thing .
and this tm has been thrown off every dz he's been at.I figure it's just a matter of time and he'll be gone again!
Thanks Lonnie


linestretch  (D 21060)

Jun 14, 2005, 7:29 PM
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Re: [blazetailman] Tandem Handcams The battle! [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
line stretch, I think it your response was a bit harsh

I didn't mean it to be harsh, but it's reality. I've done both, handy and outside, and of course, would prefer the outside. There was a time where I wasn't getting shit for vids....just too many video guys. So I bucked up and got my tandem rating. Turns out I love it, and I still do both. I've done plenty of handy to know you can make it look pretty damn good. Reality is that it's just gonna get bigger. It's cheap, and one less slot to fill. DZO's that are all about the $ are soon to move to this. I'd say your best bet is move to another DZ, or start doing tandems.

good luck,
JJ


velocityphoto  (D 18988)

Jun 14, 2005, 7:47 PM
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Re: [linestretch] Tandem Handcams The battle! [In reply to] Can't Post

You say its cheaper to do the handy video's .Our dz is charging full price for them $79.00 .I think it's crap. They are shooting the video on most of the tandems and it's just a loosing battle for me ,unless i can sell them the video up front before they make there jump.As far as stills go i can't sell them unless they get the video paid for 1st. I'm thinking of buying the glove and doing tandems ,but it's not in my budget right now.Even if i can get a glove i probably won't get but a couple of the tandems here and there. Even though i've been at this dz since i started jumping .I ran the video concession myself for the past 8 yrs.Now i guess i'm just being pushed pout the door .
It's really discouraging !


jdfreefly  (D 24037)

Jun 14, 2005, 8:45 PM
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Re: [velocityphoto] Tandem Handcams The battle! [In reply to] Can't Post

If your not tied to the area, find a new dz. You would do much better at a place with a full time turbine anyway.

Personally, I think it's crap that they are selling a handcam as a video. What the fuck is that?


Shyandinnocent  (D License)

Jun 15, 2005, 12:58 AM
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Re: [pcalandra] Tandem Handcams The battle! [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
This sport is filled with egos, rather than get in a pissing contest work it out. I'll bet that sooener or later the tandem people will get sick and tired of the extra work anyway.

Don't bet on it. They like the extra monies too much. Australia has used handicam for years now, and it doesn't look like anyone's getting sick of the extra work. In the mean time, I had to find other work to supplement my income... With just Cessnas it IS hard to survive as a camera only person, when DZ operators can sell a video to the tandem, as well as get someone else to pay for the extra slot. I also feel for the new tandem master, who isn't allowed to take a camera up with him or her. It is also very hard for them to get the experience they need to qualify for full time jobs in a country where many operations are handicam only.
If you ask me, handicam is the invention of the devil, as I'm only doing a tenth of the jumps I have been used to doing. My husband has almost doubled his income, though, so I guess it does benefit me anyway...
Pros and Cons, the debate still rages on here Down Under. Like it or not, Handicam is here to stay!!!
Damn it!


stratostar  (Student)

Jun 15, 2005, 3:13 AM
Post #16 of 113 (2049 views)
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Re: [velocityphoto] Tandem Handcams The battle! [In reply to] Can't Post

Times change, it's time to move on, maybe they'll miss you?
think bigger dz with turbine....Cool

~


Premier SkymonkeyONE  (D 12501)

Jun 15, 2005, 5:26 AM
Post #17 of 113 (2031 views)
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Re: [velocityphoto] Tandem Handcams The battle! [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Some tandem masters at our dz have started doing handcam video's at our dz which is putting me clear out of business. Is there anyone else out there having this same problem ? It's pretty rough trying to sell something anymore ,i'm usually sitting on the ground now .It really sucks having thousands wrapped up in equipment and nothing to do with it! Any suggestions anybody? :( any opinions anyone?

Yeah, I have a suggestion, get some more ratings. That may sound harsh, but if you intend to make a living skydiving you better have every means available to you. I do AFF, SL (when there is any these days), Tandems, "regular" video, and handcam video. I am not sitting on the ground.

Chuck


Premier PhreeZone  (D License)
Moderator
Jun 15, 2005, 5:59 AM
Post #18 of 113 (2021 views)
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Re: [SkymonkeyONE] Tandem Handcams The battle! [In reply to] Can't Post

I'm pretty sure Lonnie has alot of those ratings already. He's in the same situation I was in... wanting to enjoy skydiving too much to be hauling students and leaving his camera gear sit around on the ground not in use.

Lonnie, honestly hit one of the turbine DZ's in the area. I know the northern one is really busy with tandems right now. The southern one has had decent business too so you might call and ask either place about videoing for them.


NSEMN8R  (D 26397)

Jun 15, 2005, 6:43 AM
Post #19 of 113 (2009 views)
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Re: [velocityphoto] Tandem Handcams The battle! [In reply to] Can't Post

I think you guys that are saying handcam video sucks just haven't seen good handcam video. With the right lens you can do a damn nice job. And after opening......

The last thing in the world I want to do is get rid of the video guys so I've been charging the same as outside video. I'm only taking about 15% of the videos. I've sold a lot more of them as add-ons to outside video for $29 than as a replacement for it at $59. That's the way I push it in class though cuz the vidiots are my friends.

The real niche for this thing is on the ones that don't want video at all. I've sold almost every single one of those. Even if I only get half price for it (and I usually get more), I still double my pay for the jump.

These things are here to stay, but I don't see it ever replacing the videographer. In fact, I believe this so much that I just bought a new FTPSmile I love flying outside camera and people are always going to want stills. I'm going to print a bunch and hang them at the dz this weekend. I'll bet if I pitch it right I could sell stills for the same price as we get for video.

If I was getting fucked by the handcammers I'd offer digital stills for free or really cheap with outside video. Or, even better, sell the stills and throw in free video.

This must make for a pretty crappy vibe at your dz. I can't imagine working in a place where the staff tries to screw each other like that. I never even considered trying to take all the video. I hope you guys can find a way to get along.


riggerrob  (D 14840)

Jun 15, 2005, 9:16 AM
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Re: [velocityphoto] Tandem Handcams The battle! [In reply to] Can't Post

I ran the video concession myself for the past 8 years. Now i guess I'm just being pushed out the door .
It's really discouraging!
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

You lost me there ...
Last fall, while visiting Niagara Skydive Center, one of the vidiots was bragging a that when he hurt his foot last summer, he had to spend a few months on the ground, dubbing other people's video.
He made more money dubbing other people's video than if he had been jumping.

Correct me if I am wrong, but ....
if you own the video concession, then you should be making plenty of money dubbing other people's video.

As a handy-cammer, I would much rather toss a tape to a video editor - and get back in the air - than dub it myself.


TALONSKY  (D License)

Jun 15, 2005, 10:00 AM
Post #21 of 113 (1961 views)
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Re: [velocityphoto] Tandem Handcams The battle! [In reply to] Can't Post

It almost sounds as if you are at a small DZ. I mean at the larger DZ there is always competition rather it be as a tandem instructor, video guy, AFF instructor, Coach, or even packers. Hell, quite a few look at skydiving and think wow it would be cool to do this as a full time thing or even just pay for my skydiving. I sure that is how you got started doing videos, I know that is how I got started. In the two years I have been a TI, I have seen a quite a few new people trying to make some money skydiving( this is just a fact of life). The best way I think to deal with it, is to find some other direction to go (other ratings). I am currently getting into videoing tandems and teams not to take work away from the video guys but so when we need a video and do not have anyone to do it ( I could fill this niche. During the winter months we seem to end up with more TIs and less video guys). In the end you need to just start finding a way to adjust for the handycams and also get use to competition because you will have more always.
Kirk


(This post was edited by TALONSKY on Jun 15, 2005, 10:06 AM)


Pendejo  (D 22642)

Jun 15, 2005, 11:00 AM
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Re: [velocityphoto] Tandem Handcams The battle! [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
I ran the video concession myself for the past 8 yrs.Now i guess i'm just being pushed pout the door .

Help me out here... When you say you run the concession, do you mean that you own all the equipment? If so.... Who's editing equipment are they using? Also, why do you have to sell the video first? Is this something that your DZO requires? We offer video or stills at the same price ($20.00 extra for both). What is your agreement with the DZO? Are you paying him a cut of the action (PM me with that one if you don't want to post it here)?

I like the idea of showing both videos to the student, but remember that negative selling almost never works in the long run. How about making a video that you let play all day with your info on it? Saying that this is your product ect?Does your DZ offer DVD? If not, go buy a dvd burner (assuming you own the editing equipment) and offer DVD for a little more (we charge $25.00 extra). If the student wants a DVD and your DZ does not offer it now, then you get the video work... It kinda sucks to have to be that way... But if what you say is accurate... They are doing that to you now.


I'll give you another tip, if manifest is not the DZO tip them for every video they sell for you. You might be surprised how much it means to them that you even thought of them, let alone actually gave them a tip!


Premier SkymonkeyONE  (D 12501)

Jun 15, 2005, 2:10 PM
Post #23 of 113 (1907 views)
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Re: [PhreeZone] Tandem Handcams The battle! [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
I'm pretty sure Lonnie has alot of those ratings already. He's in the same situation I was in... wanting to enjoy skydiving too much to be hauling students and leaving his camera gear sit around on the ground not in use.

If Lonnie does in fact have all his ratings then he is simply being stuborn and selfish. I would LOVE to swoop my velocity every skydive, but I am not about to turn down tandems (which I also really like) just so I can do that. If you want your share of the money, then do whatever it takes to get it. My PC-109 fits as well on the side of my Optik Illusion as it does in my handcam glove. If I want to work, then I am going to do whatever is needed (minus packing; that's not skydiving for a living).

Another thing: I think it's pretty short-sighted to think that you have nothing to gain by jumping other than your "race" main. I can promise you that me making 33% of my skydives these days under a Sigma 370 or My Firebolt 350 does not hamper my ability to swoop the piss out of my Velo and my Sabre2 97. That's just me though.

Chuck


mwabd1  (D 25298)

Jun 15, 2005, 4:45 PM
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Re: [SkymonkeyONE] Tandem Handcams The battle! [In reply to] Can't Post

It's funny me a couple of TM's were talking about hand cams this week and they mostly did not like them. I share the opinion that outside video is better. I jump at a cessna DZ and the quality of the video is a big factor so I don't have to worry about anyone running over my work anytime soon. I don't jump for a living, but do well enough that the hobby pays for itself. All said I would get pretty pissed if someone tried to run me out after my $4000.+ investment in cameras, helmets, suits and time was thrown to the side!

________________________________________________


velocityphoto  (D 18988)

Jun 15, 2005, 7:26 PM
Post #25 of 113 (1863 views)
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Re: [mwabd1] Tandem Handcams The battle! [In reply to] Can't Post

I probably have in the neighborhood of 35 to 40 k in equipment ,so i'm a bit upset about it all !


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