Forums: Skydiving: Safety and Training:
Locked Toggle

 


aftermid  (A 47036)

May 31, 2005, 6:16 AM
Post #1 of 22 (1765 views)
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Locked Toggle Can't Post

Jump #39
Gear: Wings Container Triathlon 150 1.15 wingloading
Plane: Casa
Uneventful two way exit and fun jump (horney gorilla). Waved off at 4,500 and pulled at 4,000. On heading opening under canopy by 3,200. Visually check canopy, cocked slider, reached for toggles and left toggle was locked (tied around itself and elastic stow area), unfortunately someone untied it before I could get a picture. It was creating a very minimal left-hand turn but the canopy was not spinning in anyway. I attempted to untie the toggle but was unsuccessful. At 2,500 I made the decision to find the neutral position with the right toggle and land the canopy with my rear risers. I found the right toggle pressure required to offset the left. I elected to land of the landing area in a larger field of scrub brush to minimize the chance of landing on a concrete run way. I setup into the wind, feet and knees together, gave the best rear riser flare I could and PLFed(one full summersault). I got up had no injuries what so ever. By the time I got my canopy together and began walking back to the DZ there were 3 jumpers and a van waiting for me(much love Skydive the Point).
A couple weeks ago a read a similar incident where the jumper elected to chop in a similar situation and the general consensus was that landing on rears is a better alternative with an otherwise controllable canopy. I also talked to my instructors after reading the thread and they agreed. I also recently read a debate over the importance of teaching PLF, and I'm grateful for my instruction and DZ.com providing forums for debate which reinforce the importance of earlier and further instruction. A rigger and I also when over how I'd been stowing my toggles and showed me a better way of stowing excess slack to avoid a future incident. Any feedback would be apprectiated.


(This post was edited by aftermid on May 31, 2005, 11:43 AM)


Stumpy  (C 104288)

May 31, 2005, 6:56 AM
Post #2 of 22 (1702 views)
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Re: [aftermid] Locked Toggle [In reply to] Can't Post

Good work! i had almost the exact same thing happen to me this weekend and it gave me a good chance to practice that rear riser flare i had been working on! (and i have changed how i stow my excess too Crazy)


BIGUN  (D 23385)

May 31, 2005, 8:05 AM
Post #3 of 22 (1642 views)
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Re: [aftermid] Locked Toggle [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
I setup into the wind, feet and knees together, gave the best rear riser flare I could and PLFed(one full summersault). I got up had no injuries what so ever.

WooHoo!! PLF's are your friend. What I like about this is... that in the future you will not hesistate to use the PLF. Congratulations on a great chain of good decision making!


JustaBill  (B 29017)

May 31, 2005, 8:39 AM
Post #4 of 22 (1615 views)
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Re: [aftermid] Locked Toggle [In reply to] Can't Post

Is there a way you can take a picture and post how you are now stowing your excess steering line. I too have a Wings and not sure I like how the line stows. If you could post a pic or a description of how you do it, I'd be appreciative.

Thanks


Dagny  (B 28462)

May 31, 2005, 12:05 PM
Post #5 of 22 (1515 views)
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Re: [aftermid] Locked Toggle [In reply to] Can't Post

I'm glad everything worked out for you on that jump! Smile

I'm totally intimidated by the idea of landing on rears, so in the same situation I would have chopped. I'm impressed that you had the confidence to go for it.


ryoder  (D 6663)

May 31, 2005, 7:10 PM
Post #6 of 22 (1410 views)
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Re: [aftermid] Locked Toggle [In reply to] Can't Post

It is refreshing to hear a story like this that did not involve chopping a perfectly good canopy. I have landed using the rear risers on a number of occasions, due to broken steering lines. They were uneventful except for one:

I learned the hard way not to waste arm strength doing a lot of turns. After doing about three wide lefthand turns, I went into my flare. About halfway into the flare my left arm suddenly decided it had enough and wouldn't go any further. Unfortunately my right arm finished it's side of the flare and I hooked into the ground and bounced a couple times like a sack of potatoes. I didn't get hurt, but some people in the landing area nearly died laughing.


D22369  (D 22369)

May 31, 2005, 7:53 PM
Post #7 of 22 (1396 views)
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Re: [aftermid] Locked Toggle [In reply to] Can't Post

Jump #39
Quote:

dude, dont get a big head or anything, but..... MOST EXCELLENT decision making I have heard of in a while.....great job,



->and PLFed(one full summersault). I got up had no injuries what so ever.

so what did the judges score you at?...Wink

seriously, its nice to read about someone using good judgement these days...... you had a controllable canopy....(with adjustments)......you controlled it to a successful landing, (quite stylishly it sounds) Tongue



Roy


Frenchy68  (A License)

May 31, 2005, 8:56 PM
Post #8 of 22 (1371 views)
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Re: [ryoder] Locked Toggle [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
It is refreshing to hear a story like this that did not involve chopping a perfectly good canopy. I have landed using the rear risers on a number of occasions, due to broken steering lines. They were uneventful except for one:

I learned the hard way not to waste arm strength doing a lot of turns. After doing about three wide lefthand turns, I went into my flare. About halfway into the flare my left arm suddenly decided it had enough and wouldn't go any further. Unfortunately my right arm finished it's side of the flare and I hooked into the ground and bounced a couple times like a sack of potatoes. I didn't get hurt, but some people in the landing area nearly died laughing.
ALthough I totally agree that he did the right thing, since he obviously walked away in one piece, I think that chopping the main could also have been as viable an option. Someone had the same problem in Perris last week end, cut away and had an uneventfull reserve ride. It just cost him a little more...
Kudos on landing it safely.Smile


kelpdiver  (B 7)

Jun 1, 2005, 3:10 AM
Post #9 of 22 (1329 views)
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Re: [ryoder] Locked Toggle [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
It is refreshing to hear a story like this that did not involve chopping a perfectly good canopy. I have landed using the rear risers on a number of occasions, due to broken steering lines. They were uneventful except for one:

It's not a perfectly good canopy if the person involved hasn't practiced rear riser landings in some form.

It only takes one exception to prove the rule - if you're not comfortable landing your main, go to the reserve. Why are you carrying it, if not to serve that purpose?

He made it down safely, so obviously he made the right decision. Would have been just as right had he gone the other way there.


phoenixlpr  (D 3049)

Jun 1, 2005, 3:30 AM
Post #10 of 22 (1328 views)
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Re: [ryoder] Locked Toggle [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
It is refreshing to hear a story like this that did not involve chopping a perfectly good canopy.

I don`t think that a perfectly good canopy should have a locked toggle.


LukeOliver  (F 600)

Jun 1, 2005, 5:01 AM
Post #11 of 22 (1312 views)
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Re: [ryoder] Locked Toggle [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
It is refreshing to hear a story like this that did not involve chopping a perfectly good canopy.

If I'm missing a primary control input, I don't class a canopy as perfect!

Quote:
I have landed using the rear risers on a number of occasions, due to broken steering lines.

No idea of specifics here, but I've gotta say in this instance I'd be inclined to chop first and inspect later - who knows what else just broke, or might be about to...

Landing on rears is cool - takes practice, but definitely worthwhile if you've got the kit for it.

Our hero in this thread has done the right thing - read something, sought further confirming advice, practiced it, and taken the opportunity to demonstrate a skill in a pressure situation.

I'd hate for anyone leaving this thread to think "Mmm... broken steering line... never mind, I'll land it on the rears like I read about"

If ya know what I mean.

L.


riggerrob  (D 14840)

Jun 1, 2005, 7:54 AM
Post #12 of 22 (1273 views)
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Re: [Dagny] Locked Toggle [In reply to] Can't Post

I'm totally intimidated by the idea of landing on rears, so in the same situation I would have chopped.

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

Then you need to practice rear riser turns and flares on your next jump, say between 3,000 and 2,000.
Start by practicing them with your brakes stowed, then release brakes and repeat the exercise.
It may take you two or three dives to decide if you can land your canopy safely, only using rear risers.


Dagny  (B 28462)

Jun 1, 2005, 8:25 AM
Post #13 of 22 (1265 views)
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Re: [riggerrob] Locked Toggle [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Then you need to practice rear riser turns and flares on your next jump, say between 3,000 and 2,000.

It's definitely on my list of things to practice the next few times I jump. So, where do I hold the risers? I mean, there's no loops on the rears, right? And do I pull the slider down or just leave it? Does slider position affect a riser flare? And how much flare do you have to give to not hurt yourself on landing? I've done riser stalls in the air before and I'm guessing that's a bit too much. Smile

I've got sooo much to learn!


Premier billvon  (D 16479)
Moderator
Jun 1, 2005, 9:26 AM
Post #14 of 22 (1241 views)
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Re: [LukeOliver] Locked Toggle [In reply to] Can't Post

>If I'm missing a primary control input, I don't class a canopy as perfect!

Well, if your dive loop comes off, you are also missing a primary control input - but you can still land it just fine.

>"Mmm... broken steering line... never mind, I'll land it on the rears like I read about"

That's a perfectly valid decision - if you are able to do it.

There are no guarantees in this sport, and one of the things you don't have a guarantee on is whether your reserve will open or not. Double malfunctions occur with some regularity; seems like once every 2-3 years or so. Given that, it's a _very_ good idea to practice landing your canopy on your rear risers, rather than risk a reserve malfunction (small as that risk is.)

With a large canopy (i.e. loaded around 1:1) you don't even need to flare to land safely - a good PLF will generally save you from injury. With heavier loadings (1.3 or so) you will need a rear riser flare to land safely; these should be practiced. You should not be going to higher loadings until you _can_ land with rear risers; it becomes an important swooping/survival skill.


Premier billvon  (D 16479)
Moderator
Jun 1, 2005, 9:28 AM
Post #15 of 22 (1239 views)
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Re: [Dagny] Locked Toggle [In reply to] Can't Post

>So, where do I hold the risers?

Keep your hands in the toggles and grab the risers where the lines connect. If you can't reach that high, just grab them at the highest point you can get to.

>And how much flare do you have to give to not hurt yourself on landing?

A little. Prepare to PLF. Practice up high, find the stall point, then just bring the risers to slightly above that point at 5 feet above the ground. It will plane you out a bit but not do much to your forward speed; hence the PLF.


ryoder  (D 6663)

Jun 1, 2005, 10:13 AM
Post #16 of 22 (1230 views)
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Re: [LukeOliver] Locked Toggle [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
If I'm missing a primary control input, I don't class a canopy as perfect!

If:
- The canopy is fully inflated.
- I can make it fly straight.
- I can make it turn left.
- I can make it turn right.
- I can flare it.

Then I'm going to land it.

Canopies have the following flight controls:
- Front risers (for turning)
- Rear risers (for turning and flaring)
- Toggles (for turning and flaring)
- Harness input (for turning, but only at WL of >= 1.3)

I'm not going to chop just because of the inconvenience of using rears risers instead of toggles.

A story I heard once:

People on the ground were watching someone have a partial malfunction that was slowly turning. The jumper chopped it and went to his reserve. The reserve opened with a lineover and started spinning like a top. A crusty oldtimer standing nearby stopped chomping on his chewing gum just long enough to comment:

"I bet he's a'wishin' he had his main back about now."

I don't intend to be that guy.


Dagny  (B 28462)

Jun 1, 2005, 10:55 AM
Post #17 of 22 (1214 views)
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Re: [billvon] Locked Toggle [In reply to] Can't Post

Thanks for the info, Bill. What about slider position on a rear riser flare/stall? Does it matter?


Premier SkymonkeyONE  (D 12501)

Jun 1, 2005, 11:03 AM
Post #18 of 22 (1213 views)
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Re: [ryoder] Locked Toggle [In reply to] Can't Post

The ability to land a canopy on rear risers is a critical task in my opinion. We teach rear riser turns and flares at altitude in the ISP for a reason; you may have to use them one day. Chopping a straight-flying, fully inflated canopy because a toggle comes off in your hand is nuts. Likewise, the inability to correct a turn caused by a stuck toggle baffles me as well. It is incredibly simple to land a lightly loaded canopy on rears. It doesn't feel much different than landing with toggles. I had a 100 pound, 16 year-old female first jump student a couple of years ago that had no problem whatsoever landing her Navigator 200 student main on rears, right in the main landing area. The reason she did so? She was concerned that the sound of the toggle-keeper velco shearing when she went to clear her brakes meant that the risers were failing!

If you have not played with your rear risers, then you need to. Get out on a hop and pop or simply get out last and dump high then do the following:

-prior to clearing your brakes reach up and grab your rear risers at full arm extension, then turn left, then right, then flare the canopy. Repeat until comfortable

-after clearing your brakes reach up to full arm extension and perform the same actions. Do repeated practice flares until you feel comfortable.

-lastly, when you are comfortable with the up-high work, do a straight-in approach, into the wind and land your canopy. Be prepared to do a PLF (feet and knees together, knees bent)

If you are scared to do the actual landing under your current main, then simply borrow a large student-type main and do it under that. Once you get past the fright of doing it under the larger main, then downsize till you can pull it off under what you currently fly. I would not fly a canopy that I could not safely land on rears only. That said, I don't have any problems whatsoever doing this under either my Velo 84 or my Sabre2 97. It is an absolute lifesaving skill. I am not willing to chop an otherwise fully-functional main and neither should anyone else. This is really simple stuff and you can get all the "at altitude" practice you need just after opening on every single jump you make.

This all goes back to the recurring discussion we have on the boards about people in way over their heads in regards to canopy choices. If you are simply living through your landings then you are asking for it. It does not take much to master the input controls on a canopy, but most people are simply not willing to go outside their tiny little comfort zone.

Chuck


Premier SkymonkeyONE  (D 12501)

Jun 1, 2005, 11:04 AM
Post #19 of 22 (1210 views)
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Re: [Dagny] Locked Toggle [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Thanks for the info, Bill. What about slider position on a rear riser flare/stall? Does it matter?

That does not matter at all. The key thing is grabbing both risers at the same height up the risers.


Premier billvon  (D 16479)
Moderator
Jun 1, 2005, 11:11 AM
Post #20 of 22 (1209 views)
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Re: [Dagny] Locked Toggle [In reply to] Can't Post

>What about slider position on a rear riser flare/stall? Does it matter?

Not sure, to tell you the truth. I have had no problems with rear riser turns up high with an uncollapsed slider, but I have not tried to land with rear risers alone with the slider still at the links. I don't think it matters much since the stroke is so short. One issue would be not to grab the slider grommets instead of the risers and accidentally pull them halfway down the risers; that could cause problems with your working brake.

Also, note that if you ever do have a stuck brake, you will have to land by holding the other brake at the same position i.e. half flared. This makes a no-flare landing easier since you will be going much more slowly. However, it also makes a rear riser flare a bit tougher, since you also have to hold the brake as you are flaring. Amy did this by wrapping the "good" brakeline around her hand (thus keeping it at half brake position) and flaring that way. When your brakes are already partly down like that, it takes only a tiny flare stroke on the rear risers.


Premier TomAiello  (D 22400)
Moderator
Jun 1, 2005, 5:13 PM
Post #21 of 22 (1141 views)
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Re: [billvon] Locked Toggle [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
...land with rear risers alone with the slider still at the links.

I have done this numerous times, both practice and "live" on BASE canopies. No problems at all.


Andy9o8  (D License)

Jun 2, 2005, 3:48 PM
Post #22 of 22 (1039 views)
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Re: [kelpdiver] Locked Toggle [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
It's not a perfectly good canopy if the person involved hasn't practiced rear riser landings in some form.

It only takes one exception to prove the rule - if you're not comfortable landing your main, go to the reserve. Why are you carrying it, if not to serve that purpose?

I carry my main to save my life with a nice ride. I carry my reserve to save my life or avoid serious injury, first and foremost; anything beyond that, while nice, is really just gravy. When I'm at decision point, comfort is not an issue. A survivable yet imperfect main over my head is a known quantity. An undeployed reserve is always still just a maybe, even if it's the best reserve in the world, packed by the best master rigger in the world. If I think a "questionable" main might be bad enough to corkscrew me in, or might turn from "fair" to "really bad" too low to do anything about it, I chop it. But if it's survivable and flyable, I ride it down and do the PLF. I've sprained an ankle and blown out a knee using that rule, which is fine by me compared to even the very slight chance of a serious mal on my reserve after a clean cutaway.


(This post was edited by Andy9o8 on Jun 2, 2005, 3:53 PM)



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