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Who does not pull low and did you arrive at that decision because something happened?

 

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Poll: Who does not pull low and did you arrive at that decision because something happened?
I sometimes pull low unnecessarily 17 / 9%
I avoid pulling low unnecessarily, but I arrived at this decision without any low-pull incidents (either mine or someone else's, however minor) 130 / 70%
I avoid pulling low unnecessarily, but I arrived at this decision due to some low-pull incident (either mine or someone else's, however minor) 34 / 18%
Other 5 / 3%
186 total votes
 
FrogNog  (C 34484)

May 25, 2005, 6:42 PM
Post #1 of 28 (2372 views)
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Who does not pull low and did you arrive at that decision because something happened? Can't Post

A Cypres save incident elicited comments a jumper should TuG. (Or TuB.) Without getting into the seriousness of a Cypres save, or repeating the "I was told to TuG but now I'm a decent skydiver" threads, I wanted to see/show how many people do not pull low, and the reason they don't pull low is that they did at some point previously and they learned from it.

I've pulled low (for me; YAMV) a few times and been talked to about it and basically it is these jumps, plus my thinking about it, that prevents me from sucking it down. I can honestly say if I had not been altitude mistaken twice and altitude stupid a time or two beyond that, I would not have a good do-not-pull-low drive.

No Cypres fires for me but I mighta scared my Cypres on one of these occasions.


MarkM  (C 35089)

May 25, 2005, 7:40 PM
Post #2 of 28 (2288 views)
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Re: [FrogNog] Who does not pull low and did you arrive at that decision because something happened? [In reply to] Can't Post

TuG? TuB?


payback462

May 25, 2005, 8:00 PM
Post #3 of 28 (2266 views)
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Re: [FrogNog] Who does not pull low and did you arrive at that decision because something happened? [In reply to] Can't Post

sucking it down and losing altitude awareness are two different things.

i have one unintentional low pull that thankfully no one saw, because it was lower then ill ever admit to, that was many jumps ago, and i definetaly learned from it.

also define what you mean by low, i assume cypress territory?



on a side note i think people too lazy to write out take up bowling should follow their own adviceTongueTongue


nbblood  (D 26355)

May 25, 2005, 8:21 PM
Post #4 of 28 (2247 views)
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Re: [MarkM] Who does not pull low and did you arrive at that decision because something happened? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
TuG? TuB?


Yeah, my thoughts to. I'm really confused on what the question is? What is low? I don't know anybody that goes below pull altitudes as required by the SIM on purpose. I choose 3k as my pull altitude although I am allowed to pull at 2k, unless DZ policy prohibits. My choice is to allow extra room for error. If airspace is not clear I can use a little extra time to track. I don't feel the need to take it any lower. As far as going below 2k on purpose....wouldn't even consider it. I've had hard pulls that took me to 2200 or so, but that's as close as I've been.

I'm still not sure I understand the question.

Blues,
Nathan


LearningTOfly

May 25, 2005, 8:29 PM
Post #5 of 28 (2241 views)
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Re: [FrogNog] Who does not pull low and did you arrive at that decision because something happened? [In reply to] Can't Post

I do not pull low, and it is not because of something that happened to me in the past.

Simply: why cut yourself short on time? Stacking the odds against yourself usually is not helpful. View one of the hand-deploy reserve videos out there... that's part of what influenced my decision.

I maintain a position to pull on time (3500') or higher if clear. Either way, I like altitude Laugh


Superman32  (B 28074)

May 25, 2005, 8:48 PM
Post #6 of 28 (2223 views)
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Re: [LearningTOfly] Who does not pull low and did you arrive at that decision because something happened? [In reply to] Can't Post

I'm very very new so I still pull "high", turn and track at 5K pull around 4.5K. I know its high, but I let people know of my plan prior to exit. I have not had anybody complain or even express a second thought about it.
My reason for pulling high is not because I'm afraid to alti, but b/c I want to give myself extra time for a chop and landing the reserve as well as to give more time to play/learn under the canopy.Smile


ryoder  (D 6663)

May 25, 2005, 9:35 PM
Post #7 of 28 (2201 views)
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Re: [payback462] Who does not pull low and did you arrive at that decision because something happened? [In reply to] Can't Post

There was a time when I never pulled above 2000. That was before I started jumping with a Cypres. Since I started carrying a Cypres, I always aim to pull by 2500-3000, because one of my canopies has taken up to 1100' to open, and I really don't want two-out.

Hey! You look familiar! Weren't we on the same bowling team once?Wink


sundevil777  (D License)

May 25, 2005, 9:41 PM
Post #8 of 28 (2196 views)
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Re: [MarkM] Who does not pull low and did you arrive at that decision because something happened? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
TuG? TuB?

Take up golf/bowling...


LuvToFly

May 25, 2005, 9:48 PM
Post #9 of 28 (2192 views)
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Re: [FrogNog] Who does not pull low and did you arrive at that decision because something happened? [In reply to] Can't Post

There does not seem to be many reasons to pull low. Looking up and seeing someone ready to fall into your soon to open chute might be one.

That did happen to me one time. I happen to barrel-roll before pull on this particular dive and saw someone that must have followed me out of the plane with virtually no separation (confirmed that later) and then for some reason followed me in free-fall. I saw them about 500' directly above me still in free-fall. It was about 3,500, and decided to track away a bit and opened around 2,200. That was around the lowest I ever opened.

It's just a reminder to allow yourself time and altitude. If this had happened at 2,500 it would have been a very tense affair. I never plan to deploy lower than 3,500 on any dive in any case, but this was an example to me of why you need that extra altitude. There does not seem to be any good reason to plan low deployment altitudes.

In a sport with some unpredictables, this is at least one factor we can control, giving you that extra time that might be needed to deal with the unforeseen.


DanG  (D 22351)

May 25, 2005, 10:11 PM
Post #10 of 28 (2183 views)
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Re: [LuvToFly] Who does not pull low and did you arrive at that decision because something happened? [In reply to] Can't Post

I avoid pulling low unneccisarily, as the OP asked, but I'll pull low occasionally if safety warrants like LuvToFly said. I have not pulled below 2,000 in recent memory except mayeb once on a big way when the air wasn't clear and one hop 'n' pop in which I exited below 2,000, but let's no go there.

I usually pull at 2,500 or higher for RW and 3,500 or higher for camera. Any lower than that and I get scared real fast.

- Dan G


bob.dino  (E 2185)

May 25, 2005, 10:20 PM
Post #11 of 28 (2179 views)
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Re: [DanG] Who does not pull low and did you arrive at that decision because something happened? [In reply to] Can't Post

I don't pull below 3k, except on bigways. Even then, 2k5 is about as low as I want to go. If that precludes my future participation on really really big ways, so be it.


karenmeal  (D 24737)

May 25, 2005, 10:38 PM
Post #12 of 28 (2173 views)
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Re: [FrogNog] Who does not pull low and did you arrive at that decision because something happened? [In reply to] Can't Post

I used to accidentally pull low (~1500') and not really be shook up about losing altitude awareness, but once I had a malfunction that took 3500' to deal with I gave up that nasty habit. Pirate Its a good thing that I survived that 100-200 jump phase!

Now I am the person that you can rely on to break off at the correct altitude.Cool

-Karen


Avion  (Student)

May 25, 2005, 11:01 PM
Post #13 of 28 (2165 views)
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Re: [FrogNog] Who does not pull low and did you arrive at that decision because something happened? [In reply to] Can't Post

I still pull at 5.5 because I really enjoy playing with myself, oops, I mean my canopy Wink

Spirals are F*ing awesome.

5 spirals on my Spectre 210 = 1000' Cool

And it's so f*ing cool pulling out of the dive, at like 60+ mph, after letting up on the toggle.

Cheers


(This post was edited by Avion on May 25, 2005, 11:01 PM)


FrogNog  (C 34484)

May 25, 2005, 11:21 PM
Post #14 of 28 (2157 views)
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Re: [FrogNog] Who does not pull low and did you arrive at that decision because something happened? [In reply to] Can't Post

A lot of people say they don't pull low unnecessarily. That's good. I also believe them. I expected that but I also have at least one friend who does pull low unnecessarily. (Apparently a few poll-takers are in that category. Smile)

As to all the people who say "what is low?" I meant for that to be up to the individual who is pulling. This is definitely a "grade yourself" poll.

My whole point was to see if there are two groups of people who do not pull low unnecessarily:
* people who just thought about it and decided they didn't want to do it because of whatever reason like "it's stupid" or "malfunctions take altitude" or another logical reason, and
* people who have had some low experiences in the past and got reformed by it.

And the reason I thought about this issue was I saw an incident where someone got helped by a Cypres. In short order someone pointed out bowling may be a good sport for this person based on their failing, on one jump, with 64 jumps experience, to pull on time. While I admit a Cypres firing on the back of someone conscious, able, and in freefall is a very serious event - they would basically be dead if it weren't for the magic black box - I saw a flipside of an incident like that for many jumpers: they may be strict and careful with their altitude forever after. Same for people who didn't get a Cypres fire but "scared their Cypres", "saw the barn get real big", or "had more things to wipe after the instructor/DZO finished talking to me."


nael  (D License)

May 25, 2005, 11:37 PM
Post #15 of 28 (2149 views)
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Re: [Superman32] Who does not pull low and did you arrive at that decision because something happened? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
turn and track at 5K pull around 4.5K

How do you turn, track and pull in around 2.5 seconds??

On the main topic, I dont pull low, I still like breaking off at 4.5k and find myself pulling at around 3 - 3.5k. That's how I plan on keeping it for a long time. If that excludes me from jumps that's cool, when I'm more experienced I may pull lower and get on those jumps, or not, we'll see.


DanG  (D 22351)

May 26, 2005, 1:16 AM
Post #16 of 28 (2110 views)
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Re: [bob.dino] Who does not pull low and did you arrive at that decision because something happened? [In reply to] Can't Post

I've pretty much decided I don't want to do big ways for safety reasons. The biggest I've ever been on was 40 and there was a lot of poor tracking and canopy traffic. Being in the base made it scarier. I had to pull low at least once that weekend because I didn't have clear air. Add a malfunction as simple as line twist to the equation and I decided big ways are not for me.

- Dan G


btucker  (E 1974)

May 26, 2005, 4:04 AM
Post #17 of 28 (2064 views)
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Re: [FrogNog] Who does not pull low and did you arrive at that decision because something happened? [In reply to] Can't Post

No doubt about it, the lower you dump the higher the risk.

On back to backs loads, I might hum it down to legal*. Where possible I try to avoid that and open as high as possible. I enjoy and pay for flying my canopy so why would I waste that?

I've had a slow speed mal at 3000, it was actually a lot of fun as there was no time pressure. On another incident, I whistled through 1800ft with a locked bag, the emergency procedures where performed with somewhat more haste!


Dozens of canopies opening low(er) and then landing in the same small area with now substantially less time & altitude to set up. You can have that!



* main open by 1800ft is the relevant op reg.

Blue dreams, Benno


Newbie  (C License)

May 26, 2005, 6:06 AM
Post #18 of 28 (1996 views)
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Re: [karenmeal] Who does not pull low and did you arrive at that decision because something happened? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
I used to accidentally pull low (~1500') and not really be shook up about losing altitude awareness, but once I had a malfunction that took 3500' to deal with I gave up that nasty habit. Pirate Its a good thing that I survived that 100-200 jump phase!

Now I am the person that you can rely on to break off at the correct altitude.Cool


-Karen

Hi, i was a little confused - you said you used to pull at about 1500ft but once had a mal that took 3500ft to deal with - i take it you opened a lot higher on that jump?
Also what was the mal, and why did you ride it out for 3500ft instead of chopping it?

Thanks

To answer the original question, i don't pull low and that's not because anything has ever happened to me personally in my short jumping career, but knowing that the ground is rushing up very quickly and i'm vastly narrowing my chances of escaping without serious injury or death the longer i stay in freefall, is definitely enough to make sure i pull at a reasonable height (3000-3500ft) on the few jumps i have made todate.


(This post was edited by Newbie on May 26, 2005, 6:10 AM)


Premier skybytch  (D License)

May 26, 2005, 6:55 AM
Post #19 of 28 (1963 views)
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Re: [DanG] Who does not pull low and did you arrive at that decision because something happened? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
I've pretty much decided I don't want to do big ways for safety reasons. The biggest I've ever been on was 40 and there was a lot of poor tracking and canopy traffic.

I felt safer on a 130 way breakoff than I do on most 10 way "loose load" breakoffs. When they get really big the breakoffs are very staged, and the people you're jumping with generally know how to track well.

That said, I found myself open at 1100 feet once after a 30-ish way. Was waving off at my assigned pull altitude when I saw someone below me doing the same so I tracked more and tossed as soon as I was clear. Glad I didn't have a Cypres then...


DanG  (D 22351)

May 26, 2005, 7:22 AM
Post #20 of 28 (1940 views)
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Re: [skybytch] Who does not pull low and did you arrive at that decision because something happened? [In reply to] Can't Post

I'm sure with well organized groups big ways can be relatively safe, but I don't like the culture of low pull as standard. At LP one year I was watching a known organizer putting together a 20 way (or maybe 30 I don't remember). Breakoff did not start until 3,000. He pointedly told everyone that he didn't want to see anyone pulling above 2,000 and flippantly made some remarks about how people who pull higher than 2,000 weren't welcome on his jumps. How you manage a safe 20 way breakoff in 1,000 feet is beyond me. Maybe I'm all messed up, but my 4-way team doesn't break off that low.

- Dan G


EricaH  (D License)

May 26, 2005, 7:24 AM
Post #21 of 28 (1938 views)
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Re: [FrogNog] Who does not pull low and did you arrive at that decision because something happened? [In reply to] Can't Post

When I had 200 - 300 jumps I was pulling somewhere around 2500' w/ snivel that meant open canopy around 1800 & flying (togels unstowed, chest strap loosened & the like) around 1500'.
Then 2 things happened.
1. I saw a video of a guy @ our dz years ago that had a spinning mal. He had soft housing. Anyway, w/ RSL he had an open reserve about 1.2 seconds before landing - he lived. To me, this was the first time I actually thought about how long it could take to deal with a mal, not typical but it could happen.
2. From about 500' above, I watched a friend of mine go in under a spinning mal.

This winter on vacation, under a good canopy I looked down at the ground. At 2,000' I thought - that's ok, I could cut away, pull reserve & still live. At 1,000' I looked down & thought - dang, that's close to the ground; ain't no way you could cut away & still live. In fact I know you could still do it at 1000' if necessary, but still I really don't want to be there.

So, now I pull at 3,500' & have full stearability check by 2,500'. I don't care what kind of jump I just did; I inform my jump mates they can hum it down if they so chose; but I'm out of the dive in time to pull that high.


karenmeal  (D 24737)

May 26, 2005, 8:28 AM
Post #22 of 28 (1895 views)
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Re: [Newbie] Who does not pull low and did you arrive at that decision because something happened? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Hi, i was a little confused - you said you used to pull at about 1500ft but once had a mal that took 3500ft to deal with - i take it you opened a lot higher on that jump?
Also what was the mal, and why did you ride it out for 3500ft instead of chopping it?

Well to be more accurate I obviously didn't pull at 1500 on every jump..Crazy maybe every 10 jumps or so?Blush

As for my malfuction... I opened at 4500 and got disentangled from my reserve at 1,000.. I posted about it before.

Here is the post if you feel like reading it. http://www.dropzone.com/...%20chute%20;#1543337

-Karen


Amazon  (D License)

May 26, 2005, 8:49 AM
Post #23 of 28 (1877 views)
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Re: [FrogNog] Who does not pull low and did you arrive at that decision because something happened? [In reply to] Can't Post

I usually avoid pulling low... If I am doing the speed competitions.. then it gets a tad lower since the measured altitude is from 8900 ft down to 5500 ft.
This gives you your maximum speed you have to bleed off in about 3000 ft. Dumping while still going very fast can hurt and or damage the canopy ( been there ....done that) I use all of that 3000 ft and when my dytters flat line at 2500 ft I am deploying..I am comfortable with that and usually have all the speed gone by then with the track/speedbrake procedure I use to get rid of that speed.

When doing big ways.. I am usually in the base.. so last to break off. When I check my air for others before I deploy it can get me down to where I am really wanting to get some canopy in the air... I do not ever want to scare my cypres. Several people scared them bad enough at Lost Prairie last year to have 2 out..one of them went right past me as I was deploying on the POPS jumps..now THAT scared me.


Designer  (D 5771)

May 26, 2005, 10:47 AM
Post #24 of 28 (1821 views)
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Re: [FrogNog] Who does not pull low and did you arrive at that decision because something happened? [In reply to] Can't Post

Read carefully this months comments by the the "Canopy Swoopers"!Ever since test jumping 96-98,I decided I like flying my little rocket ship parachute as much or more than freefall.Not many of us like to open high and just explore the flight performance.Nice to see some more people doing it at our DZ.It's fun!


bmcd308  (D 27472)

May 26, 2005, 11:35 AM
Post #25 of 28 (1795 views)
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Re: [FrogNog] Who does not pull low and did you arrive at that decision because something happened? [In reply to] Can't Post

I said #2, because I arrived at the decision without any low pull incidents. That being said, I have found myself in the basement before. Frown It was not a pleasant experience, but it was a lesson I took very much to heart.


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