Forums: Skydiving: Safety and Training:
Stuck toggle=First Cutaway

 


2cmyzx  (C 3254)

May 17, 2005, 10:16 AM
Post #1 of 18 (2005 views)
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Stuck toggle=First Cutaway Can't Post

Equipment, Sidewinder container, Sabre 2 190 main, Raven II Reserve, Cypres 2, no RSL. Hop and Pop from 3000agl with no winds. Open at 2500 and I collapsed the slider and grabbed brakes to release them and right side was fine, left side came down about 6-8" and stuck tight. I looked at alti now at about 2200ft and then looked to see if I could fix it. Took a quick glance and tried to use both hands and no good would start spinning to the left. I grabbed risers and thought can I land this on risers and given the input I had to use on the right to get it to steer straight I was not comfortable with that option. So now at 1800 and tucked my feet up and cutaway and seen both risers go and the reserve pull and under the Raven at 1500. Had a very fast landing in no winds and had to plf it. Upon inspection of the main I either stowed the excess wrong with the toggle looped through it somehow or my excess came out of the keepers and I reached through the loop when I grabbed my brakes.


larsrulz  (C 34603)

May 17, 2005, 10:29 AM
Post #2 of 18 (1983 views)
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Re: [2cmyzx] Stuck toggle=First Cutaway [In reply to] Can't Post

Congrats on discovering and dealing with the problem that you were dealt. Curious, without being preaching, if you regularly exit at your minimum opening altitude? A stuck toggle is something that could have been easily corrected (in some instances) given adequate altitude without necessitating a cutaway.

But did I hear Beer!? Cool


(This post was edited by larsrulz on May 17, 2005, 10:30 AM)


2cmyzx  (C 3254)

May 17, 2005, 10:42 AM
Post #3 of 18 (1967 views)
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Re: [larsrulz] Stuck toggle=First Cutaway [In reply to] Can't Post

We are a small Cessna Dz and do alot of 3000 ft hop and pops especially when there are no winds so the swoopers can work on there swoops. I wish now that we had taken a picture of the riser and toggle when we checked it out but our chief instructor said there was no way you were going to get that out under canopy. In looking back this may have been able to be landed with rear risers but having not done many of them I just didnt feel comfortable with it. I do know that I am going to be practicing my rear riser landing's more and being more carefull when I pack and when I go to grab my brakes!Shocked


AggieDave  (D License)

May 17, 2005, 10:48 AM
Post #4 of 18 (1958 views)
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Re: [larsrulz] Stuck toggle=First Cutaway [In reply to] Can't Post

It sounds like the toggle formed a knot around the guide ring and/or the riser. That's hard to get out even when you're much higher and no one is around you. Trying to do rigging in the air can put you below you hard deck and out of options. Its not the same as having a stuck toggle.


aftermid  (A 47036)

May 17, 2005, 11:10 AM
Post #5 of 18 (1933 views)
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Re: [AggieDave] Stuck toggle=First Cutaway [In reply to] Can't Post

So would you agree with chopping the main and opening the reserve in this circumstance? Would cutting the line with a hook knife and landing on rear risers be a viable option? I'm very new a just got a hook knife because someone said you should never jump without one.

John


AggieDave  (D License)

May 17, 2005, 11:31 AM
Post #6 of 18 (1914 views)
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Re: [aftermid] Stuck toggle=First Cutaway [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
So would you agree with chopping the main and opening the reserve in this circumstance? Would cutting the line with a hook knife and landing on rear risers be a viable option?

Well first of all I would like you to discuss this with your former instructors and/or your S&TA to get a good understanding of the scenerio and solutions before trusting anything you read off the internet.


Chopping or not chopping is a matter of comfort level, personally I would just take a wrap on the opposite toggle and land on rears. Then again, I land on rear risers fairly often anyways so its not that big of a leap to do so in this instance (for me). As for whipping out a hook knife, well, I'm not real sure I would personally do that or recommend doing as such, although others may disagree with me.


amy  (D License)

May 17, 2005, 1:20 PM
Post #7 of 18 (1861 views)
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Re: [AggieDave] Stuck toggle=First Cutaway [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
Chopping or not chopping is a matter of comfort level, personally I would just take a wrap on the opposite toggle and land on rears.

I agree that the decision whether or not to cut away from this kind of problem is a personal decision. It's also a good idea to think about what your options are before you're presented with the situation.

Dave's suggestion of the wrap/riser landing is one option. Another option to consider is giving enough input with the opposite toggle to keep the canopy flying straight, then either flare from that position (pulling on each toggle enough to keep the canopy flying straight, which means that you'll finish the flare with one hand all the way down and the other about halfway), or to simply land in half brakes. I've done both due to toggle hang-ups - the latter option seemed preferable when I was concerned the toggle might suddenly free itself halfway through my flare and turn me into the ground.

Which option you choose (and whether you decide to cut away) is going to depend at least partly on what canopy you're flying, and how heavily it's loaded. Some canopies can be landed in half-brakes without flaring, as long as you can do a good PLF. Landing a heavily loaded elliptical that way might be a little hairier. Whether you decide to land with rear risers or toggles will depend on how comfortable you are with those types of approaches - but keep in mind that either way you'll be approaching in half-brakes, and the landing will be different than one from full flight.

Amy


EvilLurker

May 17, 2005, 1:44 PM
Post #8 of 18 (1838 views)
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Re: [2cmyzx] Stuck toggle=First Cutaway [In reply to] Can't Post

I would have chopped what you're describing, since you had never done a rear-riser landing on that canopy. You done good, I'm glad we're not reading this in the Incidents thread. At the altitude you were at, you had a short time to make a decision, and you did. Without being there or inspecting the mal, that's my read on it. Maybe later, with more experience and the opportunity to practice some rear-riser flying and landing, you'll make a different decision next time, but that sounded pretty severe to me (spinning vs. turning), and riding it below 1800, trying to clear it, is what gets people killed. I say good job.


hookitt  (D License)

May 17, 2005, 2:20 PM
Post #9 of 18 (1806 views)
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Re: [2cmyzx] Stuck toggle=First Cutaway [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
I grabbed risers and thought can I land this on risers and given the input I had to use on the right to get it to steer straight I was not comfortable with that option.

I would have done the same thing you did. In fact I have. There's no way I'd land a stuck toggle if there was another option.

There's no point in messing with something you're not comfortable with. If it doesn't pass a controlability check... get rid of it.

Congratulations on your first cutaway


colossus

May 17, 2005, 2:58 PM
Post #10 of 18 (1779 views)
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Re: [aftermid] Stuck toggle=First Cutaway [In reply to] Can't Post

I would have to agree with the decision that was made. Using your hook knife on a canopy, and landing with rear risers is MUCH more risky than just going to reserve... not to mention a hell of a lot cheaper. $50 for a repack... or what... $100-$200 for new lines and a potentially more dangerous landing?

I think the ey that shows that you made the right decision is that you are telling us what happened, instead of us reading it in the paper/ some other 2nd hand source.

Good job... now did you say beer? :)


larsrulz  (C 34603)

May 17, 2005, 3:46 PM
Post #11 of 18 (1757 views)
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Re: [colossus] Stuck toggle=First Cutaway [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
I would have to agree with the decision that was made. Using your hook knife on a canopy, and landing with rear risers is MUCH more risky than just going to reserve... not to mention a hell of a lot cheaper. $50 for a repack... or what... $100-$200 for new lines and a potentially more dangerous landing?

Good job... now did you say beer? :)

I disagree with the two parts in the first paragraph, but certainly not the second paragraph. Cool

One should know the rear riser response characteristics of their canopy within the first few jumps after jumping it. There is a very good reason to do a number of higher altitude canopy rides to discover this. Also, the beauty of the steering lines is that they can be easily replaced in about 15 minutes. The lower steering line is separate from the upper, so you only have to replace the steering line to the cascade junction. Any rigger will have the line and it will be cheaper than a $50 repack. Most important though is that safety always trumps cost. If the jumper feels more comfortable with getting a new canopy than landing on rear risers, then the choice is simple. I would merely recommend that one learns how to use their rear riser, so there are two perfectly acceptable options available to them


hookitt  (D License)

May 17, 2005, 3:58 PM
Post #12 of 18 (1747 views)
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Re: [larsrulz] Stuck toggle=First Cutaway [In reply to] Can't Post

If you have time to control your canopy ... grab a hookknife... if you have one.. then cut the brakeline, by all means, go for it. It wouldn't be my first choice or any choice for that matter.

Also, I sure wouldn't land my canopy with one brake set with rear risers. That's different than landing with rears without the brakes set.

edit: clarity


(This post was edited by hookitt on May 17, 2005, 5:05 PM)


EvilLurker

May 17, 2005, 3:59 PM
Post #13 of 18 (1745 views)
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Re: [larsrulz] Stuck toggle=First Cutaway [In reply to] Can't Post

Well, he would have burned another 2 or 300 feet getting his hook knife out and cutting the steering line, then would have had to re-evaluate whether or not he could fly and land it. If he had been higher, I'd go along with you, but from his altitude I have to applaud his decision and his awareness of a hard deck and say if he was in the same situation again, do the same thing again. I've been in a similar situation and cleared the mal before my hard deck (doesn't sound as severe, I was turning vs. spinning), but I was going to chop it if I couldn't get it fixed by 2k. Break that chain of events, because you don't know what's going to happen after you commit to try and land a marginal main like he had.

Quote:
One should know the rear riser response characteristics of their canopy within the first few jumps after jumping it.

I agree with you there, but it's early in the year and a lot of people in the "cold areas" aren't as current as we were last fall. It sucks to realize you're having doubts at 500 feet, know what I mean?


DancingFlame  (C 177476)

May 17, 2005, 10:17 PM
Post #14 of 18 (1663 views)
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Re: [2cmyzx] Stuck toggle=First Cutaway [In reply to] Can't Post

You are alive and uninjured. You did not injure anybody else. That means you did everything right!

However I would try to land under main canopy. It is not overloaded and would have some flare power.


phoenixlpr  (D 3049)

May 18, 2005, 1:09 AM
Post #15 of 18 (1633 views)
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Re: [2cmyzx] Stuck toggle=First Cutaway [In reply to] Can't Post

Well done! It was a good decision. Others can say anything on the ground. Welcome to the club!


Chapsta  (C 35558)

May 19, 2005, 1:55 PM
Post #16 of 18 (1455 views)
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Re: [2cmyzx] Stuck toggle=First Cutaway [In reply to] Can't Post

Pretty much word-for-word that's what happend to me at #180ish. Stuck toggle (same type reason) and a decision to make! I figured OK If I land this thing I'll live... but I'm not so sure I'll be walking around the rest of the day. A clean reserve sounded better than taking the chance to me then. Really, it still does. I mainly fly my rear risers now under canopy... but the thought of not having the option to use my toggles just doesn't sit well!

Nice job!

Chaps


steve1  (D 23640)

May 19, 2005, 2:53 PM
Post #17 of 18 (1445 views)
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Re: [2cmyzx] Stuck toggle=First Cutaway [In reply to] Can't Post

Kelly,
I think you did well. "When in doubt, whip it out!"...has always stuck in my mind.

By the way, have you got your reserve repacked yet, and are you coming up this weekend? I hope to make a two dayer out of it, if the weather holds, and I don't have another flat tire...Steve1


zap49  (B 5332)

May 21, 2005, 11:04 PM
Post #18 of 18 (1353 views)
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Re: [2cmyzx] Stuck toggle=First Cutaway [In reply to] Can't Post

Kelly , I just watched Burks new video and saw you standing in front of your raven reserve.That was the first I heard of it. Good job . I'll be up on Mon. weather permitting, will you be there?



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