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original sabre

 

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caspar  (A 105169)

May 11, 2005, 4:02 PM
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original sabre Can't Post

hi there,

im jumping my club rig ( the main is a sabre 190). my wing loading is pretty 1 on the dot maybe a bit over (1.1).... people seem to talk about original SABREs quite negatively.....i know they can spank you quite hard and have yet to experience that momentous occasion but i was just wondering Pirate...is that the only reason its not a prefferable canopy? im learning to pack it so it doesnt spank me but i keep thinking there may be other reasons why people dont seem to like it? or is it just because its a bit outdated now and most people have newer canopies??

cheers,

caspar


(This post was edited by caspar on May 11, 2005, 4:06 PM)


crazydiver  (D 28022)

May 11, 2005, 4:31 PM
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Re: [caspar] original sabre [In reply to] Can't Post

Its all an opinion thing. Sabres are safe well flying low to mid range canopies. They have tendencies to open quicker than desireable sometimes and thats a matter of packing. While nowdays, you would hope that a brand new canopy would not need really any nose treatment, thats what makes the sabre out of date. You should roll four cells on each side into the center cell, which you may already know. HOWEVER...this reduces the consistancy and heading control of openings and you are therefore left with a quick opening from time to time. I had a sabre 135 for about two hundred jumps and jumped lots of larger sabres before then. They really weren't that bad of openings as long as you were careful, but they definetly weren't that consistant.

On another note...the original sabre is a great flying canopy. I think its a good canopy to start out with if you are looking for used gear. Now if you are looking for new gear, obviously your money would be better spent elsewhere, but for a used canopy...the sabre is perfect!


tombuch  (D 8514)

May 11, 2005, 4:40 PM
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Re: [caspar] original sabre [In reply to] Can't Post

Hard openings and heavy toggle pressure are the two biggest complaints. The original Sabre also lacks an elliptical shape, so it turns differently than a Sabre-2. I actually have two original Sabre 120's and don't have trouble with hard openings. I still enjoy the older Sabre.
.


caspar  (A 105169)

May 11, 2005, 4:48 PM
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Re: [tombuch] original sabre [In reply to] Can't Post

heavy toggle pressure???


tombuch  (D 8514)

May 11, 2005, 4:52 PM
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Re: [caspar] original sabre [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
heavy toggle pressure???

It takes more muscle to pull the toggles, especially as the parachute moves through a steep turn. It wasn't a problem 'back in the day, but by current standards it has heavy toggle pressure. The original Sabre also has heavy riser pressure as compared with more contemporary parachutes. The Sabre-2 has lighter pressures. Think of it as the difference between manual and power steering.
.


caspar  (A 105169)

May 11, 2005, 4:58 PM
Post #6 of 73 (2254 views)
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Re: [tombuch] original sabre [In reply to] Can't Post

when i think of less riser pressure i somehow think of that having adverse efects on the canopy. imean....theyve got to loose one thing to gain another right? and if thats so then changing riser pressure must do something to way the canopy flies?? any pros and cons you can possibly give on varying levels of riser/toggle pressure?


crazydiver  (D 28022)

May 11, 2005, 5:17 PM
Post #7 of 73 (2241 views)
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Re: [caspar] original sabre [In reply to] Can't Post

What the control pressure does to the canopy depends on what control source it is. You are correct though. Say the front riser pressure is very low, that puts more of the pressure on the rear of the canopy so rear risers and toggle pressure will be higher. This will work the opposite way if the toggle and rear pressure is low.

Some canopies, however, can distribute the tension to the front and rear leaving the b and c lines with less tension. This could very well be the case with the sabre.

Some of hte larger older sabres even had two steering lines attached to each toggle to distribute the flare out along the tail of the canopy. The jumpshack firebolt has this system presently.


caspar  (A 105169)

May 11, 2005, 5:32 PM
Post #8 of 73 (2234 views)
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Re: [crazydiver] original sabre [In reply to] Can't Post

i understand that if manufacturers put less pressure on the forward risers they'll put them on the rear risers but it sounds like most new canopies have lower pressure on bothe risers. does this mean that more pressure is applied to the center of the parachute??

does more toggle pressure mean that although you have to use mire force to pull them downyou get a more reposnive/effective flare- im assuming this with: more energy in - more energy out...

although i know i dont really need to worry about this at my level its seems that this is a major flying determinant.

for a beginner who is starting to think about buying a rig what would you recommend in terms of toggle/riser pressures?? ive been told all the popular canopy makes, id like to know as much as i possibly can about canopies before i make such a huge investment, it would be great to know what i want in terms of specifications before i even look at canopy makes. that way big brand names, or the "canopy you have to get" wont affect my choice, just the best i can get for what i want. i mainly hear what the size it is, how fast it goes, manufacturer, etc.

cheers for all the great advice by the way!

Smile


Premier skybytch  (D License)

May 11, 2005, 5:45 PM
Post #9 of 73 (2225 views)
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Re: [caspar] original sabre [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
id like to know as much as i possibly can about canopies before i make such a huge investment, it would be great to know what i want in terms of specifications before i even look at canopy makes.

Demo, demo, demo.

What I call heavy toggle pressure you might call perfect. You won't know for sure which canopy you'll like best until you've flown each canopy you are interested in.


mattjw916  (D License)

May 11, 2005, 5:48 PM
Post #10 of 73 (2224 views)
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Re: [caspar] original sabre [In reply to] Can't Post

In the end it comes down to personal preference. Demo a few canopies and find a nice used one to start with preferably with a fresh set of lines. It will be easier to pack and you won't get as upset if you damage it landing out or something.

Higher toggle pressure does not mean more flare power. It is more a function of the planform of the canopy.

You sound like you need a copy of Brian's book!

http://www.bigairsportz.com/...ishing.php#parachute


caspar  (A 105169)

May 11, 2005, 6:09 PM
Post #11 of 73 (2214 views)
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Re: [mattjw916] original sabre [In reply to] Can't Post

thanks again guys!!

out of interest....how many jumps do you think you should have to go to the WFFC and do one of those really high jumps (was told 26,000ft!?!?!Crazy). not the min requirement but what you guys think is a very safe min....millions of canopies everywhere plus i guess you need oxygen assist to do that big jump.

edit
sorry to keep replying. its 2am here in england and i have my end of year exams for uni at the moment. got one in oooh, 7 hours and i need to revise but have been revising for 14 hours so need distractions or i'll go mad! allowed to take notes in the exam and trying to squeeze it all on 1 A4 page Unsure


(This post was edited by caspar on May 11, 2005, 6:12 PM)


mattjw916  (D License)

May 11, 2005, 6:17 PM
Post #12 of 73 (2203 views)
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Re: [caspar] original sabre [In reply to] Can't Post

you probably want to start a separate thread for that question, you will get better/more responses


crazydiver  (D 28022)

May 11, 2005, 6:24 PM
Post #13 of 73 (2199 views)
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Re: [caspar] original sabre [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
i understand that if manufacturers put less pressure on the forward risers they'll put them on the rear risers but it sounds like most new canopies have lower pressure on bothe risers. does this mean that more pressure is applied to the center of the parachute??

does more toggle pressure mean that although you have to use mire force to pull them downyou get a more reposnive/effective flare- im assuming this with: more energy in - more energy out...

Smile
If a canopy has low riser pressure all around, it probably is well dispursed throughout all the connection and steering points. In my opinion, heavy toggle pressure is not a huge deal since you will never have as much trouble pullin the tail of the canopy down as a whole chunk of canopy with either set of risers. Dont worry about toggle pressure for you beginning canopy. There are no sport canopies that you would not be able to flare out there really. Tandems take some stregnth, but thats not you anyway.

Also, there are not tradeoffs for everything in canopies. A heavier toggle pressure doesn't mean more lift or flare power.

THe sabre woiuld probably be a good choice for you.


crotalus01  (B 28932)

May 11, 2005, 6:31 PM
Post #14 of 73 (2190 views)
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Re: [caspar] original sabre [In reply to] Can't Post

hey i jump a Sabre 190. i LOVE the way it flies and flares, but holy shit it will spank the F#$K out of you when it opens if it is not packed exactly right. as far as a first canopy (for me anyways) it is an awesome flying wing. just be aware that you are going to pay for that great flying with some bad bruises until you learn to pack it consistantly (still working on that part myself Pirate).


Travman  (E License)

May 11, 2005, 8:29 PM
Post #15 of 73 (2153 views)
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Re: [caspar] original sabre [In reply to] Can't Post

I have a sabre 170, and I think its fine, but I don't have much to compare it to. I have never had anything close to a hard opening, I psycho pack mine - maybe that helps too.


caspar  (A 105169)

May 11, 2005, 8:52 PM
Post #16 of 73 (2143 views)
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Re: [Travman] original sabre [In reply to] Can't Post

psycho pack. i'm gonna be honest and say that ive never heard of that....

i really enjoy jumping with the sabre, i just seemed to pick up on a negative vibe about it somewhere along along the line... still not looking forward to getting spanking by it tho!

another quick question (sorry!)- is a fast opening parachute like the sabre more or less likely to have a mal? im thinking that if it opens really quickly there wont be enough time for something to go wrong as its opening..... ? ??


Premier skybytch  (D License)

May 11, 2005, 9:02 PM
Post #17 of 73 (2141 views)
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Re: [caspar] original sabre [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
still not looking forward to getting spanking by it tho!

Any canopy can spank you. I've been whacked by a Sabre and I've been whacked by (two different) Spectres.


crazydiver  (D 28022)

May 11, 2005, 9:32 PM
Post #18 of 73 (2131 views)
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Re: [caspar] original sabre [In reply to] Can't Post

A canopy that opens hard can throw a steering line around to the front of the canopy and create a line over, but lineovers are ver unlikely malfunctions. Try packing a lineover...its gonna take lots of jumps to ever get that to happen intentionally.


Stumpy  (C 104288)

May 12, 2005, 1:11 AM
Post #19 of 73 (2107 views)
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Re: [caspar] original sabre [In reply to] Can't Post

Caspar - you jump with the UWE crowd don't you? If that club sabre is the one i think it is its a gem - ask Mat about it, i think it was his originally. I had a sabre 170 and it only ever spanked me when i was experimenting with a lot of packing methods people on here suggested. The rolling and stuffing the nose, all that stuff made it worse. Once i stopped trying to get clever with it and packed it by just stuffing the nose slightly, being VERY careful with making sure the slider was big and slightly out the front (get someone to show you what this means!) and then rolling the tail, it opened fine evry time.
Like i said, talk to Mat about it, he has loads of jumps on that canopy and i don't think it spanked him at all.

good luck!


mr2mk1g  (C 103449)

May 12, 2005, 1:54 AM
Post #20 of 73 (2099 views)
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Re: [Stumpy] original sabre [In reply to] Can't Post

Not mine, but I have jumped it. She didn't spank me.

Casper – don't worry about the club sabre, it’s a great introduction to sport canopies. We can run you through some “defensive packing” methods if you like too. After jumping that horrible EXE I've collected a few people's ideas on how to prevent slammers (btw EXE's are normally fine... I think I had an odd one). My guess is though you ought not have opening problems with the sabre so long as you follow a couple of key packing principals.

When you have a few more jumps we'll talk to an instructor about getting you onto the club spectre and maybe a few jumps on some of the other canopies people in the club have. There’s quite an assortment of canopies you can try out if you buy the owner a pint... it's about as good as a demo program as you can get over here.

Once you jump a few other canopies the whole riser/toggle pressure thing will start to make sense as you'll have a frame of reference.

If you end up going out to Perris later in the year you’ll find they have an awesome demo program.


jakee  (C License)

May 12, 2005, 4:13 AM
Post #21 of 73 (2072 views)
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Re: [Stumpy] original sabre [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
I had a sabre 170 and it only ever spanked me when i was experimenting with a lot of packing methods people on here suggested. The rolling and stuffing the nose, all that stuff made it worse. Once i stopped trying to get clever with it and packed it by just stuffing the nose slightly, being VERY careful with making sure the slider was big and slightly out the front (get someone to show you what this means!) and then rolling the tail, it opened fine evry time.

Sounds just like what I do. I had a sabre1 190 and have a 150 now and all I do is leave the nose alone and pull the slider forwards to cover it and I have no problems with it. Of course compared to the spectre I put a few jumps on it opens fast, but it doesn't open hard and its always on heading.

Side question, I had the chance to jump a friends sabre2 150 a few weeks ago and while toggle response was much crisper and turn rate faster I found the front riser pressure insanely high. Pulling hard on a riser barely moved it an inch, on my sabre1 it would have been down to my chest, is that normal for sabre2's?


TheBachelor  (D 22560)

May 12, 2005, 12:29 PM
Post #22 of 73 (2007 views)
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Re: [caspar] original sabre [In reply to] Can't Post

I've got about 800 jumps on my original Sabre. About once every 75 or 100 jumps, I get spanked. Once or twice really hard. Otherwise, I really like the canopy. I had it relined at about 600-700 jumps, and now it performs better than ever.


Travman  (E License)

May 12, 2005, 4:02 PM
Post #23 of 73 (1977 views)
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Re: [caspar] original sabre [In reply to] Can't Post

Psycho packing is also known as Precison Packing http://www.precision.aero/extreme_pack.htm


Avion  (Student)

May 16, 2005, 9:06 AM
Post #24 of 73 (1885 views)
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Re: [caspar] original sabre [In reply to] Can't Post

Hey Caspar,

From what I have been able to research, the Sabre is now an older design. Standard jumping practices were different back when it's design was new, ie everybody opened at 1000' or less. So, it was enginneered to open fast. Newer designs, are engineered to open slower, because the usual opening alitude went up to 2500' or higher. They are a bit notorious for occasionally opening much faster than normal. One just broke a guys neck in Titusville a couple of months ago. That one was packed by a packer. Also, we had a guy in Deland that blew out an end cell when his Sabre opened fast. He admitted to trash packing it.

As you are aware, any canopy can open faster than normal. I have had a couple of faster than normal opening with my Spectre, that sank me down in the harness and left me groaning, "Oh, Gawd!" One was packed for me, and the other I packed. I have trouble thinking of anything that I did different on that particular pack job, except for the two beers I had before doing it Wink I wait till I'm done packing at the end of the day, before I start drinking now Cool

Cheers


mr2mk1g  (C 103449)

May 16, 2005, 9:09 AM
Post #25 of 73 (1882 views)
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Re: [Avion] original sabre [In reply to] Can't Post

Your research provides conclusions somewhat different to those which my research provides. Tongue


(This post was edited by mr2mk1g on May 16, 2005, 9:13 AM)


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