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Opening in a cloud?

 

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phoenixlpr  (D 3049)

May 9, 2005, 4:36 AM
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Opening in a cloud? Can't Post

I had a solo jump from 4000m in the weekend. I was the last on exit, an 2(or 3)way FF formation was before me. I have giving them 8 sec and jumped out and I was going belly down. I was planned to be pull high, about 1500m. In pull time I was in a cloud. I`ve known that I have good separation so I popped my PC. I`ve felt a bit strange anyway. Any thoughts about it?


kevinwhelan  (A 443)

May 9, 2005, 5:18 AM
Post #2 of 94 (3134 views)
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Re: [phoenixlpr] Opening in a cloud? [In reply to] Can't Post

Opening in cloud is a strange experiance no noise and cant see a dam thing.
It's fairly common here in Ireland to open in cloud if you are opening high.
How did You know what direction to fly in? What I do is a slow right turn until I come out, and give a shout every few seconds and listen for others.
BTY was this yourfirst (beer) cloud openingTongue


plowdirt  (B 26704)

May 9, 2005, 5:21 AM
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Re: [phoenixlpr] Opening in a cloud? [In reply to] Can't Post

at 214 jumps you know it's not a cloud it's called industrial haze. so thats about 4500 ft.

watch the spot, look for a hole, it would suck if a plane didn't see you, never mind who ever else opened in the same haze. and those freeflyers, there pullin at 2k,( but you never know) it's also real good to have a chat with them before you get on the plane. talk it up buddy thats why we all know or are supposed to know what our dive plans are.

be safe
E


phoenixlpr  (D 3049)

May 9, 2005, 5:49 AM
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Re: [plowdirt] Opening in a cloud? [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
at 214 jumps you know it's not a cloud it's called industrial haze. so thats about 4500 ft.

Can you imagine that I do know my position, the line of flight, even where the previous group? Do you think this abilities are connected with my jump numbers? Stick to the clouds!


Kris  (D 26033)

May 9, 2005, 6:35 AM
Post #5 of 94 (3055 views)
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Re: [phoenixlpr] Opening in a cloud? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Can you imagine that I do know my position, the line of flight, even where the previous group? Do you think this abilities are connected with my jump numbers? Stick to the clouds!
CrazyYou're so modest.

There's a reason why jumping though clouds in the US is illegal. And there's also another reason why, when it does happen, we refer to it as "Industrial Haze".

Hopefully the pilot won't get in trouble with the FAA because of your lack of judgement.Unimpressed


pilotdave  (D License)

May 9, 2005, 6:40 AM
Post #6 of 94 (3049 views)
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Re: [Kris] Opening in a cloud? [In reply to] Can't Post

FAA as in Finland Aviation Administration? Tongue Clouds are clouds in some countries. And jumping through industrial haze is just as illegal in the US. Smile

Dave


(This post was edited by pilotdave on May 9, 2005, 6:41 AM)


Kris  (D 26033)

May 9, 2005, 6:49 AM
Post #7 of 94 (3036 views)
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Re: [pilotdave] Opening in a cloud? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
FAA as in Finland Aviation Administration? Tongue Clouds are clouds in some countries. And jumping through industrial haze is just as illegal in the US. Smile

D'oh! There I go...showing my US centricism again.Blush

Still, jumping through clouds is just asking for trouble though.


DZJ  (A 104861)

May 9, 2005, 7:55 AM
Post #8 of 94 (2982 views)
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Re: [Kris] Opening in a cloud? [In reply to] Can't Post

I opened in cloud on my Level V AFF jump - video just shows me disappearing into the grey. Was otherwise pretty uneventful, canopy opened normally, I checked it, had a look around, couldn't see a damn thing, did my other checks and then did a gentle spiral til I got out of it maybe 500 feet later.


feuergnom  (D License)

May 9, 2005, 7:57 AM
Post #9 of 94 (2979 views)
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Re: [phoenixlpr] Opening in a cloud? [In reply to] Can't Post

so you were jumping from 4k meters - did you now at which alti the base of the clouds was? if it was bove 1k meters - why did you have to pull high?

good plan to avoid opening in a cloud: check out the alti of the base before boarding - if it is lower than 1k meters i wont jump through them cause you never know where you will come out exactely - specially when you are the last to leave the plane

so it was no good idea right from the start Unimpressed


Premier skybytch  (D License)

May 9, 2005, 8:16 AM
Post #10 of 94 (2955 views)
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Re: [Kris] Opening in a cloud? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Still, jumping through clouds is just asking for trouble though.

Yup. There's a reason for that FAR - dead bodies. Amazes me sometimes how little attention some jumpers/pilots/dzo's give this FAR when they are adamant about following others (seat belt usage, jumping impaired...).


kallend  (D 23151)

May 9, 2005, 8:18 AM
Post #11 of 94 (2950 views)
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Re: [skybytch] Opening in a cloud? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
Still, jumping through clouds is just asking for trouble though.

Yup. There's a reason for that FAR - dead bodies. Amazes me sometimes how little attention some jumpers/pilots/dzo's give this FAR when they are adamant about following others (seat belt usage, jumping impaired...).

Any hard data on fatalities resulting from jumping through clouds?


AggieDave  (D License)

May 9, 2005, 8:47 AM
Post #12 of 94 (2928 views)
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Re: [kallend] Opening in a cloud? [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
Any hard data on fatalities resulting from jumping through clouds?

Are you forgetting about the group of jumpers that landed in Lake Michigan and a good number of them drowned? That's the incident that got the FAA to start the process to add the FAR.


plowdirt  (B 26704)

May 9, 2005, 10:01 AM
Post #13 of 94 (2869 views)
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Re: [DZJ] Opening in a cloud? [In reply to] Can't Post

                  


INDUSTRIAL HAZE !!!!!!


You guys are gonna get us all spanked.


hookitt  (D License)

May 9, 2005, 10:12 AM
Post #14 of 94 (2847 views)
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Re: [plowdirt] Opening in a cloud? [In reply to] Can't Post

No, he was right the first time. Cloud

Here's a great link about clouds Link

Hope that helps.


airdvr  (D 10977)

May 9, 2005, 10:13 AM
Post #15 of 94 (2846 views)
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Re: [plowdirt] Opening in a cloud? [In reply to] Can't Post

Not to be an ass or anything but that incident was in Ohio and it was Lake Erie. Bunch of people in a B-25 I think. Anyways, I think with modern equipment the idea of jumping "through" clouds involves solid cloud cover where you can't see the ground at all. I've gone through some nice puffies but I wasn't engulfed for more than a sceond. I wouldn't trust a GPS to spot me through clouds.

The reason you wouldn't want to be around clouds is more of an opening in clouds scenario. Happened to me and a friend a long time ago. Turned and burned right into a cloud. Dumped in the cloud only to see my friend doing the puppet dance about 25 feet away as we came out of them. Fortunately he was facing the same direction and I bounced off his backpack and flew away. Scared the crap out of both of us.


AggieDave  (D License)

May 9, 2005, 10:19 AM
Post #16 of 94 (2837 views)
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Re: [airdvr] Opening in a cloud? [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
Not to be an ass or anything but that incident was in Ohio and it was Lake Erie. Bunch of people in a B-25 I think.

Ah, ok, that's right it was Lake Erie. Thank you for the correction.

The incident still stands showing some dangers. There's also the fatality from England 2 years ago where a jumper ended up going through the wing of a glider that was riding a thermal under a cloud.


Quote:
I wouldn't trust a GPS to spot me through clouds.

I don't either. Infact a humorous example of that scenerio, sans clouds, happened at my DZ about 2 1/2 years ago. The DZO let the pilot use his GPS in the 182 (why you need a GPS in a 182 jump plane is beyond me, but the pilot really wanted to use it, so the DZO let him). Well the pilot called door "right on top" since that was the spot for the day, we were over a mile to the west of the DZ. Why? The pilot didn't have the screeen zoomed in far enough on the DZ. We made the pilot buy beer for such a bad GPS spot, but we quickly spotted ourselves, did the nessicarry corrections (100 left...90 right) and left the jump plane.Laugh


airdvr  (D 10977)

May 9, 2005, 10:36 AM
Post #17 of 94 (2817 views)
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Re: [AggieDave] Opening in a cloud? [In reply to] Can't Post

I was talking to some friends about spotting being a "lost artform". I used to really enjoy doing that. I had power over the pilot and he did what I said Cool


phoenixlpr  (D 3049)

May 9, 2005, 10:43 AM
Post #18 of 94 (2804 views)
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Re: [Kris] Opening in a cloud? [In reply to] Can't Post

??? Have I told anything that it could be 8/8 of clouds? No.

It was 2-4/8 and good ground vision. That cloud has stared about 1650m and the base of it was about 1350m. Why to jump out? Because 14 others have done that before me on that load. Why to pull high? Because I was the high-puller of that load and landing out has a certain risk.


speedy

May 9, 2005, 1:46 PM
Post #19 of 94 (2706 views)
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Re: [airdvr] Opening in a cloud? [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
I wouldn't trust a GPS to spot me through clouds.

With or without clouds I would trust the accuracy of GPS from 14000 ft over anyones eyesight.


(This post was edited by speedy on May 9, 2005, 1:46 PM)


Premier billvon  (D 16479)
Moderator
May 9, 2005, 1:47 PM
Post #20 of 94 (2701 views)
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Re: [speedy] Opening in a cloud? [In reply to] Can't Post

>With or without clouds I would trust the accuracy of GPS from
>14000 ft over anyones eyesight.

I recall one demo in Cabo we did where the GPS was 1200 miles off. Fortunately there were human spotters on board to correct this problem.


mjosparky  (D 5476)

May 9, 2005, 2:11 PM
Post #21 of 94 (2680 views)
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Re: [phoenixlpr] Opening in a cloud? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
??? Have I told anything that it could be 8/8 of clouds? No.

It was 2-4/8 and good ground vision. That cloud has stared about 1650m and the base of it was about 1350m. Why to jump out? Because 14 others have done that before me on that load. Why to pull high? Because I was the high-puller of that load and landing out has a certain risk.

Have you ever thought about sitting down and re-evaluating your continued participation in skydiving?

Sparky


Zenister  (A 42)

May 9, 2005, 2:17 PM
Post #22 of 94 (2672 views)
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Re: [billvon] Opening in a cloud? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
>With or without clouds I would trust the accuracy of GPS from
>14000 ft over anyones eyesight.

I recall one demo in Cabo we did where the GPS was 1200 miles off. Fortunately there were human spotters on board to correct this problem.

i'd be interested to know WHY the GPS was so far off.. i'll bet it was operator error of some sort including not checking the FOM before accepting its reading as accurate


EricaH  (D License)

May 9, 2005, 2:24 PM
Post #23 of 94 (2668 views)
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Re: [phoenixlpr] Opening in a cloud? [In reply to] Can't Post

I really don't have enough experience to join meaningfully into much of this discussion. However, I would like to thank phoenixlpr for pulling high as he had originally planed.

too often I'm in the last free fly group & there's some solo belly guy behind me swearing he's pulling above 5. for some excuse or another, he pulls lower typically screaming right past me (I pull @ 3). It's very aggrivating.

so - thank you for sticking to your original dive plan. the fact of going through clouds or not - i'll leave that up to the pros here.


Frenchy68  (A License)

May 9, 2005, 2:59 PM
Post #24 of 94 (2645 views)
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Re: [EricaH] Opening in a cloud? [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
too often I'm in the last free fly group & there's some solo belly guy behind me swearing he's pulling above 5. for some excuse or another, he pulls lower typically screaming right past me (I pull @ 3). It's very aggrivating.
Isn't that more of a (horizontal) separation issue rather than a pull altitude issue?


Kris  (D 26033)

May 9, 2005, 4:02 PM
Post #25 of 94 (2619 views)
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Re: [AggieDave] Opening in a cloud? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
I don't either. Infact a humorous example of that scenerio, sans clouds, happened at my DZ about 2 1/2 years ago. The DZO let the pilot use his GPS in the 182 (why you need a GPS in a 182 jump plane is beyond me, but the pilot really wanted to use it, so the DZO let him). Well the pilot called door "right on top" since that was the spot for the day, we were over a mile to the west of the DZ. Why? The pilot didn't have the screeen zoomed in far enough on the DZ. We made the pilot buy beer for such a bad GPS spot, but we quickly spotted ourselves, did the nessicarry corrections (100 left...90 right) and left the jump plane.Laugh

Dave, I think that was the load I was on with you guys in the eyeball-spinner 182. I remember looking out, pointing to you, then the ground, and almost laughing.Wink


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