Forums: Skydiving: Safety and Training:
Glider Pilots... We love em !!!!!

 

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sneaky

Apr 30, 2005, 4:17 PM
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Glider Pilots... We love em !!!!! Can't Post

Man this dude strayed into a skydiver zone... you could see the whites of his eyes !!
Attachments: glider pic.jpg (46.2 KB)


Martini  (D 23756)

Apr 30, 2005, 4:38 PM
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Re: [sneaky] Glider Pilots... We love em !!!!! [In reply to] Can't Post

Is it possible that you didn't notice that an aircraft with a 60 to 90 foot wingspan was nearly beneath you before you jumped? Or did you look before you leapt? This near-miss was as much your fault as his.


kallend  (D 23151)

Apr 30, 2005, 5:01 PM
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Re: [sneaky] Glider Pilots... We love em !!!!! [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Man this dude strayed into a skydiver zone... you could see the whites of his eyes !!

If you are a balloon, you have right of way over a glider per FAR Part 91.113

Are you a balloon?


heidihagen  (A 49756)

Apr 30, 2005, 5:22 PM
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Re: [sneaky] Glider Pilots... We love em !!!!! [In reply to] Can't Post

i'm so glad it was a clear day and you are both okay. i am assuming that's you since you posted this in incidents... i hate to seeing the incidents forum in bold.Frown

i do have a few questions:
how high do gliders fly? he looks low... like pull time low (my pull time anyway).
it's a scary pic! how long did it take you to notice?? also, how fast do they travel? i've never been in one.. only seen them.


(This post was edited by heidihagen on Apr 30, 2005, 6:02 PM)


n23x  (A 189541)

Apr 30, 2005, 5:26 PM
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Re: Glider Pilots... We love em !!!!! [In reply to] Can't Post

How soon was this picture taken after deployment?

.jim


Ruffles  (A 42288)

Apr 30, 2005, 5:36 PM
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Re: [n23x] Glider Pilots... We love em !!!!! [In reply to] Can't Post

How long after AFTER deployment? I think they're sit-flying bro.
Last time I looked at a FAR, skydivers have right of way over EVERYONE if dropped in marked DZ, in freefall or not, ballons or not. Gliders can stay up longer than our parachutes can.
While gliders have long wingspans, they are skinny, seriously doubt you could see one from 13.5.
One should ask if the pilot noticed the little purple parachute symbol on his regional VFR chart.
Glad you two and the glider pilot arent dead.
Where were you guys at??


(This post was edited by Ruffles on Apr 30, 2005, 5:39 PM)


sneaky

Apr 30, 2005, 5:41 PM
Post #7 of 83 (3299 views)
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Re: [Martini] Glider Pilots... We love em !!!!! [In reply to] Can't Post

actually big nose this is a picture from a colleque's camera...I wasn't on the jump.. so regardless of " whos fault it is ".. this pilot knew of the restricted 'parachuting Zone' that is in force at the airport. So both ways, this guy should have obeyed the strict law in force regarding Gliding and parachute operations, as stated in the briefings..and clearly indicated on the maps. Lack of correct radio proc' between Jump pilot & Gliderz flying within the Dropzone, is the reason we now have a great picture ! Please Enjoy and learn from this. Thats why i have posted it.

But seeing as you have pointed out a valid point, I'll ask the dude did he look before he ... er " Leapt "

Answers to the other members questions:

kallend- we're in europe no FAR here...

heidihagen- Gliderz here go upto 30k here sometimes.. they passed at 5-6K... they go fast gliderz... very impressive flying machines...wonderful too watch

n23x- Still in FF dude

When they passed, the glider pilot got on the net and tells airtraffic' i have just seen skydivers' he was then told to fly away from his location to the correct area. My friend landed white as a ghost.. but was quickly humoured by everyone " Should have took a dock "


(This post was edited by sneaky on Apr 30, 2005, 5:55 PM)


n23x  (A 189541)

Apr 30, 2005, 6:12 PM
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Re: [Ruffles] Glider Pilots... We love em !!!!! [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
...skydivers have right of way over EVERYONE if dropped in marked DZ, in freefall or not, ballons or not. Gliders can stay up longer than our parachutes can.

But they are also skydivers that were airplane passengers, who needed to appropriately assess the airspace below them before committing to a jump.

In reply to:
While gliders have long wingspans, they are skinny, seriously doubt you could see one from 13.5...

Sure you can, but the trick is, your head has to be out to door, and you have to actually take a good look before assuming green means go.

.jim


(This post was edited by n23x on Apr 30, 2005, 6:14 PM)


Premier billvon  (D 16479)
Moderator
Apr 30, 2005, 6:37 PM
Post #9 of 83 (3201 views)
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Re: [Ruffles] Glider Pilots... We love em !!!!! [In reply to] Can't Post

>Last time I looked at a FAR, skydivers have right of way over
>EVERYONE if dropped in marked DZ, in freefall or not, ballons or not.

Nope. Skydivers operate under VFR, which means see and avoid. I don't know of any FAR which gives skydivers the right of way over anyone. Of course this incident did not take place in the US so that may be a moot point. But in the US, if you cannot clear your airspace for any reason (clouds, bad vision, traffic) you do not jump.

>While gliders have long wingspans, they are skinny, seriously
>doubt you could see one from 13.5.

Elsinore has a large glider contingent; they are pretty easy to see. Considerably easier than, say, a helicopter cruising around at 2000 feet.


MikeForsythe

Apr 30, 2005, 7:21 PM
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Re: [billvon] Glider Pilots... We love em !!!!! [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
I don't know of any FAR which gives skydivers the right of way over anyone.
Then you might want to read 91.103 Each pilot in command shall, before beginning a flight, become familiar with all available information concerning that flight. This information must include— (a) For a flight under IFR or a flight not in the vicinity of an airport, weather reports and forecasts, fuel requirements, alternatives available if the planned flight cannot be completed, and any known traffic delays of which the pilot in command has been advised by ATC; and 91.113 (2) A glider has the right-of-way over an airship, powered parachute, weight-shift-control aircraft, airplane, or rotorcraft.
The FAA has already ruled that personal parachutes have right-of-way over other aircraft except balloons.


Martini  (D 23756)

Apr 30, 2005, 7:21 PM
Post #11 of 83 (3140 views)
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Re: [sneaky] Glider Pilots... We love em !!!!! [In reply to] Can't Post

 A jumper and glider pilot were both killed around this time three years ago in a midair collision. The fact is that he WAS there and this incident could have been avoided had someone seen the glider before exiting.

Post edited to remove personal attacks.


(This post was edited by billvon on Apr 30, 2005, 9:04 PM)


pilotdave  (D License)

Apr 30, 2005, 7:56 PM
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Re: [MikeForsythe] Glider Pilots... We love em !!!!! [In reply to] Can't Post

The FAA has ruled that skydivers have right of way over all aircraft except balloons? Do you have a source for that? The quote from 91.103 you gave doesn't seem to mention skydivers. Part (a) doesn't apply as we're not talking about IFR or flights not in the vicinity of an airport.

part 91.113 never mentions skydivers, which are clearly not aircraft or gliders by FAA definitions. If the FAA has made a determination about how skydivers fall in right of way rules I'd love to see it.

Dave


Premier PhreeZone  (D License)
Moderator
Apr 30, 2005, 8:02 PM
Post #13 of 83 (3081 views)
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Re: [MikeForsythe] Glider Pilots... We love em !!!!! [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
The FAA has already ruled that personal parachutes have right-of-way over other aircraft except balloons.
Do you have a site or link for that? Reason I ask is my brother who is ATC has pointed out to me that if there is an incident involving a skydiver and any other aircraft the pilot of the jump plane can be at fault for not following FAR 91.15 - Dropping objects.

No person may conduct a parachute operation, and no pilot in command of an aircraft may allow a parachute operation to be conducted from an aircraft, if that operation creates a hazard to air traffic or to persons or property on the surface.


Premier billvon  (D 16479)
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Apr 30, 2005, 9:03 PM
Post #14 of 83 (3008 views)
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Re: [MikeForsythe] Glider Pilots... We love em !!!!! [In reply to] Can't Post

>The FAA has already ruled that personal parachutes have
>right-of-way over other aircraft except balloons.

Where is that ruling? I have never seen an FAA definiton that says skydivers are aircraft.


MikeForsythe

Apr 30, 2005, 9:05 PM
Post #15 of 83 (3004 views)
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Re: [pilotdave] Glider Pilots... We love em !!!!! [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
The FAA has ruled that skydivers have right of way over all aircraft except balloons? Do you have a source for that?
Contact your local FSDO, I saw a hard copy a couple of years ago but could not find it online.
Quote:
The quote from 91.103 you gave doesn't seem to mention skydivers.
Your right and neither did I. What is does say is "Each pilot in command shall, before beginning a flight, become familiar with all available information concerning that flight." Do you think that would include skydiving activity since it is on the sectionals and NOTAM's where needed.
Quote:
Part (a) doesn't apply as we're not talking about IFR or flights not in the vicinity of an airport.
what about the part “and any known traffic delays of which the pilot in command has been advised by ATC”? As you are very well aware of the FAA’s catch all is the “Each pilot in command shall, before beginning a flight, become familiar with all available information concerning that flight” part.
Quote:
part 91.113 never mentions skydivers, which are clearly not aircraft or gliders by FAA definitions.
A skydiver in freefall, true, but under a parachute it is absolutely a aircraft (see Title 14 1.1 Deffinitions). If you believe that what you have said will save you then I would recommend a good lawyer. Could you see the FAA asking questions like: Did you see the parachute activity symbol on the sectional? Did you monitor ALL appropriate frequencies for activity? Did you make sure the airspace was clear before you entered it? While I absolutely agree that it is all parties responsibility, in the end I would bet that the airplane will feel the hot end of the poker from the FAA.


(This post was edited by MikeForsythe on Apr 30, 2005, 9:47 PM)


MikeForsythe

Apr 30, 2005, 9:11 PM
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Re: [PhreeZone] Glider Pilots... We love em !!!!! [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
FAR 91.15 - Dropping objects.
The FAR's specifically define and address parachute operations in other sections.

Part 105.3 Defines "Object"Object means any item other than a person that descends to the surface from an aircraft in flight when a parachute is used or is intended to be used during all or part of the descent.


(This post was edited by MikeForsythe on Apr 30, 2005, 9:22 PM)


MikeForsythe

Apr 30, 2005, 9:29 PM
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Re: [billvon] Glider Pilots... We love em !!!!! [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
I have never seen an FAA definiton that says skydivers are aircraft.
Well that would depend on if a skydivier uses a parachute. If so, I would recommend that you look at Title 14 1.1 Deffinations: Aircraft means a device that is used or intended to be used for flight in the air.


(This post was edited by MikeForsythe on Apr 30, 2005, 9:31 PM)


Martini  (D 23756)

Apr 30, 2005, 10:41 PM
Post #18 of 83 (2916 views)
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Re: [sneaky] Glider Pilots... We love em !!!!! [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
actually big nose
Your person attack here is childish.

Quote:
I'll ask the dude did he look before he ... er " Leapt "
If you bothered to look it up you would have found that leapt is a correct and acceptable spelling.

Much of your post seems to be a diversion intended to place sole blame on the glider pilot. While he is apparently at fault the issue isn't only about pilot error. Aircraft appear where they don't belong and it is in the end the jumpers responsibility to look where they jump. I jump at a very busy airport, knowing where the other aircraft are is crucial. Complacency leads to accidents.


Kris  (D 26033)

Apr 30, 2005, 11:00 PM
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Re: [Martini] Glider Pilots... We love em !!!!! [In reply to] Can't Post

Good point, Martini.

I was taught to spot at a Cessna DZ, and I was also taught to spot not just for the exit point, but to scan for traffic as well.

In 400+ jumps, I've only had to do a go-around once for traffic. But, as we all know, it only takes once for something to go horribly wrong.


Premier Tonto  (D 515)
Moderator
May 1, 2005, 12:33 AM
Post #20 of 83 (2842 views)
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Re: [sneaky] Glider Pilots... We love em !!!!! [In reply to] Can't Post

Moved to Safety and Training.

The purpose of this forum is to report, discuss and learn from fatal and serious non-fatal incidents.
Most, if not all, new threads here should start with the report of an actual incident. General safety issues or small and potential incidents should be posted to the Safety and Training forum.



btucker  (E 1974)

May 1, 2005, 2:24 AM
Post #21 of 83 (2815 views)
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Re: [sneaky] Glider Pilots... We love em !!!!! [In reply to] Can't Post

 
In reply to:
Man this dude strayed into a skydiver zone... you could see the whites of his eyes !!

!!!!!! f. me that is too close !!!!


Mistakes around DZ's seem all to common - Last week we had a pilot lose the plot and fly directly under us on our heading on jump run - saying/thinking he was 10miles away. Fortunately our diligent pilot and air traffic control where on the case. -The pilot tells me this is regular occurance.


-> So If I have right of way and I fall through a wing at 200Kh/h, I won't be hurt Crazy

-> Dudes, Lighten up. Maybe the glider was directly behind them or there was cloud??



B.


tombuch  (D 8514)

May 1, 2005, 4:40 AM
Post #22 of 83 (2775 views)
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Re: [MikeForsythe] Glider Pilots... We love em !!!!! [In reply to] Can't Post

We have discussed this issue numerous times on these forums.

In the United States the airspace is public use, and with the exception of some very limited national security areas, is not restricted. Airplanes have the right to fly over our drop zones at will. The airspace belongs to pilots too. Pilots have an obligation to become familiar with "all available information," as best they can, but that does not mean they need to stay away from skydiving areas.

Skydivers have an obligation to avoid creating a hazard to other air traffic. That's included in FAR 105.5 as follows:
Quote:

"No person may conduct a parachute operation, and no pilot in command of an aircraft may allow a parachute operation to be conducted from an aircraft, if that operation creates a hazard to air traffic or to persons or property on the surface."

Keep in mind that not all pilots use sectionals. Many use GPS or other digital displays that do not depict drop zones. Instrument pilots use IFR charts that do not include drop zones. New flight planning software does not depict drop zones. Drop zone listings in the AFD and on sectionals are not complete, and are often inaccurate.

Gliders have large wingspans, fly slowly, and should be easy to see. It is our obligation to clear the airspace before we jump. That means looking in all directions, and making sure traffic is not blocked by clouds.

It is really up to the pilots of jump planes AND THE JUMPERS to make sure the airspace is clear before we jump.

For more detail, see The S&TA area of The Ranch web site at http://ranchskydive.com/safety/index.htm. Specifically, check out:
Article 1, Checking For Traffic
Article 8 Airspace
Article 13 FAA Regulations Applied.
.


Premier rwieder  (C 32349)

May 1, 2005, 6:27 AM
Post #23 of 83 (2601 views)
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Glider Pilots... We love em !!!!! [In reply to] Can't Post

this is a "HYPO" (HSE term) high potential incident occurence. as much as i hate gliders, for this very reason, imho these sky divers should have checked the spot for traffic before exiting the aircraft. call me cautious. take a look at the fatality data base and see how many sky divers lost their lives last year alone for this very same reason. that said, this isn' new. be responsible for yourself and others in the air around you. Take Care, Be Safe.


rsein  (D 26537)

May 1, 2005, 7:38 AM
Post #24 of 83 (2577 views)
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Re: [sneaky] Glider Pilots... We love em !!!!! [In reply to] Can't Post

I would love to see the video of this jump!
Is there any way to post a link to it?....Please!


shropshire  (C License)

May 1, 2005, 8:06 AM
Post #25 of 83 (2570 views)
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Re: [sneaky] Glider Pilots... We love em !!!!! [In reply to] Can't Post

Wow... Everyone involved here was very... very lucky!

Apportioning blame, may make you feel better afterwards but by then it's all too often, too late.
We need to remember that Air Safety is EVERYONES responsibility!

I've had close encounters with sail planes, whilst paragliding... they are very difficult to see head on if you are at the same altitude (and I'm sure that I'm also difficult for them to see head on too - so a Quick wing over usually helps to increase my visibility... or you hope it does!)

Stay safe peeps.


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