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Why negativity about AADs is disturbing

 

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kallend  (D 23151)

Apr 24, 2005, 11:31 AM
Post #1 of 118 (3515 views)
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     Why negativity about AADs is disturbing  

 
AADs (particularly CYPRES) are proven life savers. Of this there is absolutely no doubt. Yet some posters, particularly Ron and to a lesser extent Hooknswoop and Billvon, come over very negatively about their usage even though I think they use AADs themselves.

I came across the following exchange last year on a different safety topic, and it crystallized why I don't like statements that can be interpreted (or even misinterpreted) in a way that might discourage AAD use.

There is always someone who will get the wrong message if you let them

It started here with a comment from Billvon:

http://www.dropzone.com/...i?post=860275#860275

to which I replied:

http://www.dropzone.com/...i?post=861721#861721

Just a month later Bill wrote:

http://www.dropzone.com/...i?post=943519#943519

and I said

http://www.dropzone.com/...i?post=943722#943722


(This post was edited by kallend on Apr 24, 2005, 11:34 AM)


Premier billvon  (D 16479)
Moderator
Apr 24, 2005, 11:35 AM
Post #2 of 118 (3470 views)
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     Re: [kallend] Why negativity about AADs is disturbing [In reply to]  

>Yet some posters, particularly Ron and to a lesser extent
> Hooknswoop and Billvon, come over very negatively about their usage . . . .

Since you misunderstand my position, let me restate it as clearly as possible:

I recommend the use of AAD's for most skydivers, since they increase the odds of survival when the jumper forgets to pull on time. Anyone who uses an AAD should still be able to skydive without one. By having the skills to skydive without one AND using one, they are increasing their level of safety.


kallend  (D 23151)

Apr 24, 2005, 12:25 PM
Post #3 of 118 (3432 views)
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     Re: [billvon] Why negativity about AADs is disturbing [In reply to]  

In reply to:
>Yet some posters, particularly Ron and to a lesser extent
> Hooknswoop and Billvon, come over very negatively about their usage . . . .

Since you misunderstand my position, let me restate it as clearly as possible:

I recommend the use of AAD's for most skydivers, since they increase the odds of survival when the jumper forgets to pull on time. Anyone who uses an AAD should still be able to skydive without one. By having the skills to skydive without one AND using one, they are increasing their level of safety.

There's ALWAYS someone who receives the wrong message.Wink


Hooknswoop  (D License)

Apr 24, 2005, 12:30 PM
Post #4 of 118 (3424 views)
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     Re: [kallend] Why negativity about AADs is disturbing [In reply to]  

Quote:
come over very negatively about their usage even though I think they use AADs themselves.

Kallend- You continue to misunderstand my (our) point.

I have never said don't use an AAD. In fact, I have said using an AAD is a good idea. I am posting negatively about AAD usage, I am posting negatively about how some people use them.

Let me say this as simply as possible.

If the risk level of the skydive is beyond what you are willing to accept without an AAD, then you should not make the skydive with an AAD.

Read Bill Booth's post about skydivers simply increasing their risk whenever a new safety device comes out, negating the added safety benefit of the new device. Instead they should use the device to increase their safety level. His example of being able to cutaway and get a reserve out in 500 less feet is a perfect example. Instead of jumpers being safer, they just pulled 500 feet lower.

A AAD only makes you safer if you do not negate it's benefits by makeing riskier skydives because your rig has an AAD instsalled.

Quote:
There is always someone who will get the wrong message if you let them

There is always someone that will get the wrong message because they only hear what they want to hear. That doesn't mean no messages should be put out there.

Derek


(This post was edited by Hooknswoop on Apr 24, 2005, 12:31 PM)


kallend  (D 23151)

Apr 24, 2005, 12:37 PM
Post #5 of 118 (3413 views)
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     Re: [Hooknswoop] Why negativity about AADs is disturbing [In reply to]  

In reply to:
Quote:
come over very negatively about their usage even though I think they use AADs themselves.

Kallend- You continue to misunderstand my (our) point.

I'm not the only one, apparently


In reply to:
I have never said don't use an AAD. In fact, I have said using an AAD is a good idea. I am posting negatively about AAD usage, I am posting negatively about how some people use them.

Let me say this as simply as possible.

If the risk level of the skydive is beyond what you are willing to accept without an AAD, then you should not make the skydive with an AAD.





Read Bill Booth's post about skydivers simply increasing their risk whenever a new safety device comes out, negating the added safety benefit of the new device. Instead they should use the device to increase their safety level. His example of being able to cutaway and get a reserve out in 500 less feet is a perfect example. Instead of jumpers being safer, they just pulled 500 feet lower.

A AAD only makes you safer if you do not negate it's benefits by makeing riskier skydives because your rig has an AAD instsalled.

The statistics show VERY clearly that no/low pull fatalities have declined dramatically regardless of how you think new skydivers are behaving.

In reply to:


Quote:
There is always someone who will get the wrong message if you let them

There is always someone that will get the wrong message because they only hear what they want to hear. That doesn't mean no messages should be put out there.

Derek

Make sure that your message is not one that will tempt some Type A personality to make a jump without an AAD just to show they can. It might be the jump where the AAD is needed.


Praetorian  (B 27234)

Apr 24, 2005, 12:45 PM
Post #6 of 118 (3406 views)
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     Re: [Hooknswoop] Why negativity about AADs is disturbing [In reply to]  

Quote:
If the risk level of the skydive is beyond what you are willing to accept without an AAD, then you should not make the skydive with an AAD.


....Its a safety device, it exists it can help ... if you are smart about pull altitude so as not to get a 2 out there is NOTHING but upside to jumping with a modern AAD .... IF they did not exist I would still jump... BECAUSE THEY DO EXIST.. I PERSONALLY FEEL it is STUPID to choose to jump without one.

So as long as it is an option to have one I WILL NOT JUMP without one.. I am not dependent I am not being foolish to jump with one when I will not without.. I AM USEING AN ADITIONAL SAFETY DEVICE .. Damn people. this is like telling a teen who ALWAYS puts his seat belt on that he is foolish for getting into a car and driving with a seat belt if he would not be willing to drive that car with his belt off! TURN IT ON, don't intentionally pull low. do everything you can to be safe to MINIMIZE the risk it this DANGEROUS past time we all love


Hooknswoop  (D License)

Apr 24, 2005, 12:46 PM
Post #7 of 118 (3407 views)
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     Re: [kallend] Why negativity about AADs is disturbing [In reply to]  

Quote:
I'm not the only one, apparently

Exactly the problem. It has been explained many different ways. Bill Booth explained it and people still don't get it. If Bill Booth can't explain it, maybe it is not the presenters that have the problem. Maybe people simply do not want to understand because they do not want to change the way they make skydiving decisions and how they jump.

Quote:
The statistics show VERY clearly that no/low pull fatalities have declined dramatically regardless of how you think new skydivers are behaving.[/

Statistics arent everything. They can be wrong, misinterpreted, misunderstood, etc. So much has changed over the years besides AADs, that the numbers arent very meaningful. Real life is very different from a classroom and textbooks.

Quote:

Make sure that your message is not one that will tempt some Type A personality to make a jump without an AAD just to show they can. It might be the jump where the AAD is needed.

I do I make sure someone does or doesnt do something? I have stated several times that I am not saying to take out your Cypres and jump without it and AADs are a good thing. What else do you want me to do? How can I make sure no one misunderstands when you say someone always misunderstands. You want me to do something you say is impossible.

Derek


Hooknswoop  (D License)

Apr 24, 2005, 12:50 PM
Post #8 of 118 (3401 views)
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     Re: [Praetorian] Why negativity about AADs is disturbing [In reply to]  

Quote:
....Its a safety device, it exists it can help ... if you are smart about pull altitude so as not to get a 2 out there is NOTHING but upside to jumping with a modern AAD .... IF they did not exist I would still jump... BECAUSE THEY DO EXIST.. I PERSONALLY FEEL it is STUPID to choose to jump without one.

The possible downside is someone making a skydive that is too risky because, I have a Cypres, Ill be alright.

Quote:
Damn people. this is like telling a teen who ALWAYS puts his seat belt on that he is foolish for getting into a car and driving with a seat belt if he would not be willing to drive that car with his belt off!

No, this is like telling the teen, Now just because you have a seatbelt, dont drive like an idiot. Drive as though you dont have one. Would you run that red light without a seatbelt? No? Good. Now dont run it because you feel safe because you have a seatbelt.

Derek


Praetorian  (B 27234)

Apr 24, 2005, 1:09 PM
Post #9 of 118 (3393 views)
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     Re: [Hooknswoop] Why negativity about AADs is disturbing [In reply to]  

Quote:
No, this is like telling the teen, Now just because you have a seatbelt, dont drive like an idiot. Drive as though you dont have one. Would you run that red light without a seatbelt? No? Good. Now dont run it because you feel safe because you have a seatbelt.

WHO DOSE THIS? MAYBE AN AAD IS NOT THE ISSUE... a jumper who will do the equivelant of runnig a red intentionally because they have a cypres would do it "because they have a reserve" or because they have a helmet, or because.... whatever.... NO JUMPER who will put themselves into a worst case senerio just because they have a device that MAY REDUCE the risk in the worst case is going to learn a damn thing from being talked to. lets dis-connect the DON't do STUPID SHIT lesson from the AAD discussion.

I choose NOT to ride a motorcycle without a helmet, should I not ride a motorcycle at all because I will not do it with out a safety device? ..

What do you think the odds are that I'm more safety concious then an equally qualified equally skilled skydiver/motorcycle rider who says "helmes/cypres ... we dont need no stinking helmets/cypres"
The problem with the statment "don't do a jump with a cypres that you would not do without" makes the assumption that there is a connection between choosing to HAVE an AAD, and useing that AAD as a lisence to do stupid shit.

THIS IS PROB NOT WHAT YOU MEAN TO SAY ... but it is how it comes across


Hooknswoop  (D License)

Apr 24, 2005, 1:16 PM
Post #10 of 118 (3384 views)
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     Re: [Praetorian] Why negativity about AADs is disturbing [In reply to]  

Quote:
WHO DOSE THIS


I don't have a list or anything, but there are more jumpers who factor in the AAD into their decision making process, even if they don't realize it, than you would think.

Quote:
NO JUMPER who will put themselves into a worst case senerio just because they have a device that MAY REDUCE the risk in the worst case

I don't think running a red light is worse-case. Pick your analogy, run a stop sign? Drive 10-mph over the speed limit? Whatever. The point is the teen shouldn't drive any differently because you have a seat belt, you should drive as if you don't have one, but still wear it. Then you are being safe and getting the full benefit ofwearing a seat belt.

Too many jumpers take on risks they wouldn't take on if they didn't have an AAD. I disagree with that practice.

Quote:
I choose NOT to ride a motorcycle without a helmet, should I not ride a motorcycle at all because I will not do it with out a safety device? ..

No, you should ride as if you didn't have a helmet. Otherwise you are negating the increase in safety from having a helmet.

Quote:
The problem with the statment "don't do a jump with a cypres that you would not do without" makes the assumption that there is a connection between choosing to HAVE an AAD, and useing that AAD as a lisence to do stupid shit.

With too many jumpers, that is exactly the case.

Quote:
THIS IS PROB NOT WHAT YOU MEAN TO SAY ... but it is how it comes across

How else can it be said?

Derek


(This post was edited by Hooknswoop on Apr 24, 2005, 1:19 PM)


ladyskydiver

Apr 24, 2005, 1:19 PM
Post #11 of 118 (3382 views)
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     Re: [Praetorian] Why negativity about AADs is disturbing [In reply to]  

Quote:
NO JUMPER who will put themselves into a worst case senerio just because they have a device that MAY REDUCE the risk in the worst case is going to learn a damn thing from being talked to.

Actually I know a few people who will get on jumps beyond their comfort or skill level specifically because they have a cypress. And quite frankly, I think it's pretty damn stupid of them to do so.

These are the same people that when they send their cypress in for their 4 or 8 year will not jump until it gets back and is back in their rig.

The point that people are trying to make is if you won't do the jump without a cypress, you shouldn't be on that jump with a cypress. If you won't jump when your cypress isn't in your rig, you should re-evaluate jumping.

A cypress is a great safety device that might work if all goes perfectly and "you" (generic you) are unconscious or unable to pull. However, you shouldn't rely on it. It is a mechanical device that can fail.


Praetorian  (B 27234)

Apr 24, 2005, 1:39 PM
Post #12 of 118 (3372 views)
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     Re: [ladyskydiver] Why negativity about AADs is disturbing [In reply to]  

I give up, no matter how I say it no matter how well I know myself I'm somehow LESS safe because I choose not to jump without a cypres...

I don't do any jump with that I would not do without ... but the only way I would jump without is if they did not exist or were proven to increase risk ...

Hell I must me MORE willing to get a concussion, break my neck or get any other number of wounds because I have a back up that MIGHT save me AFTER I recieve one of these wounds.

I must be less interiested in how far away the ground is/how long I have to live as I'm FALLING TO MY DEATH because I have a device that MIGHT open my reserve, if I fail to save myself ..

Hell making my gear check include the cypres must mean I'm more willing to skip over checking the straps, buckles, 3rings, pins .... need I continue?


Dagny  (B 28462)

Apr 24, 2005, 2:41 PM
Post #13 of 118 (3342 views)
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     Re: [Praetorian] Why negativity about AADs is disturbing [In reply to]  

No one is saying that you are less safe for choosing to jump with a cypres and only if you have a cypres. You're a safety conscious new-ish jumper. I think the target audience here is the jumper who is willing to push the envelope past where it should be pushed because they have an AAD back-up device. Like for the jumper who squeezes out just a few more points...or holds that head down carve just a bit longer than they should. Or whatever the story may be that gets a jumper to take a chance that they wouldn't take without that back-up device in place.

So, it seems like the emphasis is and has always been....jump if you know the risks and accept them. Be safety conscious and rely on yourself to pull at the right altitude.

I don't have an AAD, so if I fall through 800, 700, 600 ft at terminal, nothing but my own two hands is going to put a reserve over my head. The only difference between that and the person who has a cypres fire for a no-pull situation is that the AAD owner probably will probably live long enough to realize that they made a stupid mistake. Either way, the point is to be responsible, make a plan, follow it, and pull at the right time.

So, praetorian, I really just wanted to say, don't take everyone's opinion so personally. There's nothing wrong with having safety devices in place.


Hooknswoop  (D License)

Apr 24, 2005, 2:43 PM
Post #14 of 118 (3340 views)
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     Re: [Praetorian] Why negativity about AADs is disturbing [In reply to]  

Quote:
I give up, no matter how I say it no matter how well I know myself I'm somehow LESS safe because I choose not to jump without a cypres...

I don't do any jump with that I would not do without

You refuse to understand. Show me where someone said you are less safe...........

If you don't do any jump you wouldn't do w/o a Cypres, then you are safer for having it. You are not the issue.

I am not saying you or jumpers like you are less safe with a Cypres. I NEVER said that.

I did say there are jumpers that make jumps they wouldn't without a Cypres because they are too risky or beyond what they can handle. They use the Cypres to justify making a jump they wouldn't make without it. These are the jumpers that I am talking about.

Derek


(This post was edited by Hooknswoop on Apr 24, 2005, 2:44 PM)


Premier billvon  (D 16479)
Moderator
Apr 24, 2005, 3:15 PM
Post #15 of 118 (3322 views)
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     Re: [Praetorian] Why negativity about AADs is disturbing [In reply to]  

>I don't do any jump with that I would not do without ...

Then you're not overly dependent on them. If you can jump without them, then they are not contributing to a device dependency.

>Hell I must me MORE willing to get a concussion, break my neck
>or get any other number of wounds because I have a back up
>that MIGHT save me AFTER I recieve one of these wounds.

I assume you are being sarcastic here, but I have heard jumpers say just that. "You're not ready for that hybrid - what if someone corks under you and takes you out?" "Hey, that's why I have a cypres!"


kallend  (D 23151)

Apr 24, 2005, 3:16 PM
Post #16 of 118 (3321 views)
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     Re: [Dagny] Why negativity about AADs is disturbing [In reply to]  

In reply to:
I think the target audience here is the jumper who is willing to push the envelope past where it should be pushed because they have an AAD back-up device. .

I've yet to meet one of these people that some claim are becoming the norm. Maybe a few exist, but I don't think they're the norm. Far from it.

How many accidents have been attributed to people getting in over their heads due to CYPRES obsession, and how do they compare with the pre-CYPRES years' no/low pull fatality rates which averaged over 10 per year in the USA?

As far as the claim of risk homeostasis, that seems to have been taken up by swooping, nothing to do with low pulling or altitude awareness.

We need a little perspective here.


(This post was edited by kallend on Apr 24, 2005, 3:17 PM)


kallend  (D 23151)

Apr 24, 2005, 3:21 PM
Post #17 of 118 (3315 views)
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     Re: [billvon] Why negativity about AADs is disturbing [In reply to]  

In reply to:
>I don't do any jump with that I would not do without ...

Then you're not overly dependent on them. If you can jump without them, then they are not contributing to a device dependency.

>Hell I must me MORE willing to get a concussion, break my neck
>or get any other number of wounds because I have a back up
>that MIGHT save me AFTER I recieve one of these wounds.

I assume you are being sarcastic here, but I have heard jumpers say just that. "You're not ready for that hybrid - what if someone corks under you and takes you out?" "Hey, that's why I have a cypres!"

So what does a "prepared" person do in case someone corks under them on a hybrid?

My friend John Faulkner died due to someone corking under him. He was an experienced freeflier. He had a CYPRES, but he hadn't turned it on. I guess he felt it was a jump he was prepared to do without one.


Premier skybytch  (D License)

Apr 24, 2005, 3:24 PM
Post #18 of 118 (3318 views)
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     Re: [Praetorian] Why negativity about AADs is disturbing [In reply to]  

In reply to:
if you are smart about pull altitude so as not to get a 2 out there is NOTHING but upside to jumping with a modern AAD ....

By that logic if you're smart about pull altitude and always get something over your head above 1000 feet you don't need an AAD at all.

An AAD is a backup safety device, like an RSL, a helmet, an audible or even your reserve. It can only save you in a limited number of situations. In other situations having an AAD can kill you.

Choose the equipment you use wisely, know it's limitations and rely on nothing mechanical to save your ass.

I have a Cypres. I turn it on at the dropzone before I jump. It's going for a four year soon. I'll be jumping while it's gone... doing the same kind of jumps I do with it in there.

In reply to:
I PERSONALLY FEEL it is STUPID to choose to jump without one.

I personally feel that it's stupid for someone with less than 100 jumps in two years to be jumping a rig with a reserve they load at almost 1.2. To each his/her own...


Premier billvon  (D 16479)
Moderator
Apr 24, 2005, 3:43 PM
Post #19 of 118 (3293 views)
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     Re: [kallend] Why negativity about AADs is disturbing [In reply to]  

>So what does a "prepared" person do in case someone corks under
>them on a hybrid?

Worst case? They die.

The best decision to make on a dive where there is a significant risk of someone corking would be to not make the dive, not to use a cypres so it can "save your life" when it happens.


kallend  (D 23151)

Apr 24, 2005, 3:51 PM
Post #20 of 118 (3284 views)
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     Re: [billvon] Why negativity about AADs is disturbing [In reply to]  

In reply to:
>So what does a "prepared" person do in case someone corks under
>them on a hybrid?

Worst case? They die.

The best decision to make on a dive where there is a significant risk of someone corking would be to not make the dive, not to use a cypres so it can "save your life" when it happens.

The logical conclusion from the train of thought that starts there is no-one should ever jump at all, because any skydive can kill you.


Premier billvon  (D 16479)
Moderator
Apr 24, 2005, 3:53 PM
Post #21 of 118 (3278 views)
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     Re: [kallend] Why negativity about AADs is disturbing [In reply to]  

>The logical conclusion from the train of thought that starts there is
>no-one should ever jump at all, because any skydive can kill you.

Everyone decides the level of risk they are comfortable with. If someone thinks that the risk of skydiving is too high, then yes, they should never skydive. I would never try to talk someone into skydiving who was unwilling to take the risk.


chutem  (A 45827)

Apr 24, 2005, 3:53 PM
Post #22 of 118 (3278 views)
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     Re: [skybytch] Why negativity about AADs is disturbing [In reply to]  

My "newbie" logic on this one almost tells me that if I was going to do something dumb, like pull at 1500' intentionaly, I would be better off turning my cypress off for that jump. I would be more concerned about going a "hair" lower than I planned and getting a cypress fire 2 out. Please no one think that I would do this, I'm just trying to understand.
James


hookitt  (D License)

Apr 24, 2005, 4:10 PM
Post #23 of 118 (3265 views)
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     Re: [billvon] Why negativity about AADs is disturbing [In reply to]  

In reply to:
In reply to:
The best decision to make on a dive where there is a significant risk of someone corking would be to not make the dive, not to use a cypres so it can "save your life" when it happens.

Crazy I don't disagree with your "logic" but being a freefly coach, I put myself in that position all the time. A person is going to cork and chances are it's directly under me.

Also, There's *always* a risk of it. If someone tracks off and goes flat and smacks into someone that's still head down, it sucks, and shouldn't happen but it does, and there's always that risk. I've been the cause of a freefall collision and I've been the recipient. The risk was there because we chose to jump together. Simple as that. The skill level was not the problem either.

I know several people that will not make a jump without a CYPRES. Period. They don't believe they won't pull, the just know better to believe that nothing can ever go wrong.

I understand your view about not using one so you can do more dangerous dives. I see absolutely nothing wrong with not wanting to ever do a jump without a CYPRES either.

People I hold in high regards ended up being saved because something went wrong. They were not using a CYPRES to do more dangerous dives.

The only way to avoid the risk altogether is to avoid skydiving.


(This post was edited by hookitt on Apr 24, 2005, 4:12 PM)


Premier billvon  (D 16479)
Moderator
Apr 24, 2005, 4:21 PM
Post #24 of 118 (3248 views)
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     Re: [hookitt] Why negativity about AADs is disturbing [In reply to]  

>Also, There's *always* a risk of it. If someone tracks off and goes
>flat and smacks into someone that's still head down, it sucks, and
>shouldn't happen but it does, and there's always that risk.

Of course. But the odds of that happening are not fixed. If I am at Rantoul, and I get on a 40-way made up of people who have never met each other before, there is going to be a high risk that there are people on that dive who can't track well, or who can't control their approaches, or whatever. If I'm on Kate's 100 way sequentials, the odds of those people being there are a lot lower. Might a collision still occur? Yes. But the odds are a lot lower.

Compare it to drunk driving. Might you lose control and hit someone at any time? Yes. You could get stung in the eye by a bee and lose control, killing innocent bystanders. But the odds of that are low. Now, if you're drunk, the odds of killing someone else are a lot higher. But it would be silly to say "Hey, I can always lose control and kill someone, so it doesn't matter if I'm drunk." If you choose to not drive when you are drunk, you are less likely to injure someone else, and making that decision to not drive is by far the best decision. Similarly, making a decision to not jump with certain groups of people would be a wise decision, if those people pose an increased risk.

>The only way to avoid the risk altogether is to avoid skydiving.

Agreed. But the wise skydiver chooses what risks to take carefully, and does not use excuses (safety equipment, desire to be seen as cool, wanting to be on TV, whatever) as reasons to take risks they otherwise would not take.


sunshine  (D License)

Apr 24, 2005, 4:21 PM
Post #25 of 118 (3248 views)
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     Re: [ladyskydiver] Why negativity about AADs is disturbing [In reply to]  

Quote:
The point that people are trying to make is if you won't do the jump without a cypress, you shouldn't be on that jump with a cypress. If you won't jump when your cypress isn't in your rig, you should re-evaluate jumping.

I won't do freefly jumps with newbies that are learning to freefly until i get my cypres back. The chances of jumping with someone that isn't yet stable just isn't worth it to me. I'll stick to jumping with more experienced people. I do realize accidents still happen even with experienced jumpers, but it's my decision. I don't think i need to re-evaluate jumping because of that.


(This post was edited by sunshine on Apr 24, 2005, 4:59 PM)


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