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Red or Silver?

 

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weegegirl  (D License)

Apr 22, 2005, 11:28 PM
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Red or Silver? Can't Post

So, after a recent malfunction, there has been much talk/thought about the best procedure for certain scenarios.

So, I ask you guys......

Skydive on. Break off. Pull. Nothing. Your pilot chute is out, but you have a pilot chute in tow for whatever reason. What do you do? Red or silver?

If you cutaway and then go silver, you are risking getting risers and main entangled if they release. If you pull straight silver, and then your main decides to open up, well then you have a double out.

I think there are potential "issues" with either scenario. If it were me, I think if I had a pilot chute out at all, I would cut it away. But now I wonder.


FrogNog  (C 34484)

Apr 22, 2005, 11:30 PM
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Re: [weegegirl] Red or Silver? [In reply to] Can't Post

Either is better than neither.


Shark  (D 24499)

Apr 22, 2005, 11:42 PM
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Re: [weegegirl] Red or Silver? [In reply to] Can't Post

Good question.

Note: For any students reading this thread, please consult your instructor for proper procedures. Cool


bigorangemd  (D 30922)

Apr 22, 2005, 11:45 PM
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Re: [weegegirl] Red or Silver? [In reply to] Can't Post

By the time you realize you have a pilot chute in tow two things are true:

A) If your main hasn't deployed it's not likely to after your reserve deploys.

B) You are quickly going to reach your decide to act alttude.

Pulling both would be acceptable I think as the risers will not go anywhere with the chute stowed, but just pulling the reserve is the action with the least wasted motion. If in doubt always refer to rule number one-- PULL.


livenletfly  (D 28096)

Apr 22, 2005, 11:57 PM
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Re: [weegegirl] Red or Silver? [In reply to] Can't Post

first ill ram my elbows against my container to try and dislodge the jam up while rocking side to side eliminating a possible burble then go for my reserve. theres pretty good odds the main will come out once the reserve is out, but id rather have control over when the main gets realeased if neccassary rather than jettison my main into the deploying reserve once it becomes dislodged.
thats one way to skin a cat


livenletfly  (D 28096)

Apr 23, 2005, 12:00 AM
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Re: [bigorangemd] Red or Silver? [In reply to] Can't Post

actually big O, the main has a very good chance of coming out once the reserve pack tray is empty loosining the tension on the main pin. or sometimes the pin is extracted but the bag is stuffed tightly in the container. this is called container lock. this is why its good to give your container a few good elbows. this usually gets the main out. the third reason is burble. the pilot chute and or bagged main can get stuck on your back in a burble. this is why i shake side to side. this will eliminate the burble setting your pc free. in all 3 of these common scenarios you will end up with 2 out. which is why i dont cutaway first on a pc in tow. so keep that in mind. whether you go for siver or red then silver there both acceptable just make sure you know what may follow.


(This post was edited by livenletfly on Apr 23, 2005, 12:12 AM)


sundevil777  (D License)

Apr 23, 2005, 12:07 AM
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Re: [weegegirl] Red or Silver? [In reply to] Can't Post

The chance for a 2 out situation or entanglement must be balanced against the chance for the departing main to snag the reserve. It is not a settled issue on which is best, but I favor not cutting away.

Please read;
http://www.performancedesigns.com/docs/dualsq.pdf

and this is a decent thread dealing thoughtfully with the subject (of course my posts are the most thoughtfull :

http://www.dropzone.com/..._string=army;#598018


(This post was edited by sundevil777 on Apr 23, 2005, 12:11 AM)


bigorangemd  (D 30922)

Apr 23, 2005, 12:09 AM
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Re: [livenletfly] Red or Silver? [In reply to] Can't Post

Thanks. My understanding was a pilot chute in tow usually meant there was not a straight line direction of pull to the closing pin. Always glad to learn.


livenletfly  (D 28096)

Apr 23, 2005, 12:16 AM
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Re: [bigorangemd] Red or Silver? [In reply to] Can't Post

glad to help. just aout of curiosity, what would you do in a 2 out situation?


bigorangemd  (D 30922)

Apr 23, 2005, 12:23 AM
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Re: [livenletfly] Red or Silver? [In reply to] Can't Post

You mean after I shat my pants? Leave 'em be with minimals input as long as they were both out an functional. Front to back, fly the dominant. Side to side hold on and hope for the best ready to chop if they start to downplane.Shocked


livenletfly  (D 28096)

Apr 23, 2005, 1:03 AM
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Re: [bigorangemd] Red or Silver? [In reply to] Can't Post

that sounds good. use your rear risers gently to turn helps keep things stable. do not unstow the toggles on either canopy. id probably chop a side by side though.
cool be safe doc.
blue skies


bigorangemd  (D 30922)

Apr 23, 2005, 1:11 AM
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Re: [livenletfly] Red or Silver? [In reply to] Can't Post

Much obliged and plan to stay safe. I don't mind dying but I'm VERY allergic to pain!


heidihagen  (A 49756)

Apr 23, 2005, 2:50 AM
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Re: [weegegirl] Red or Silver? [In reply to] Can't Post

there was an incident a few months ago because they just pulled silver... deploying both at once, causing a really messy entanglement. incident thread here...
at first, i was taught with any total mal- just pull silver. then i went to another dropzone or two and they taught it different (red first, then silver).
the second one makes more sense to me... i would cutaway first if ever faced with this. i pull pretty high and would have that extra two seconds before reaching my hard deck.
good question though... it will be interesting to see what everyone's response will be. but from what i understand, there's not a set in stone correct answer to this one.Unsure


dcgilbert  (D 29137)

Apr 23, 2005, 4:28 AM
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Re: [weegegirl] Red or Silver? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
So, after a recent malfunction, there has been much talk/thought about the best procedure for certain scenarios.

So, I ask you guys......

Skydive on. Break off. Pull. Nothing. Your pilot chute is out, but you have a pilot chute in tow for whatever reason. What do you do? Red or silver?

Hey Liz,

As I presume I had the malfunction in question, I can tell you my thought process NOW, after having gone through it. I'd go straight to silver again.

Going straight to silver buys you time to deal with a two out scenario. Expect it to happen and be ready to deal with it. I thought I was. Immediately after reserve deployment, I checked over my shoulder to see if my main was out. It wasn't. I relaxed a bit and put my ripcord in my jumpsuit. As I reached to for my toggles, I saw my main coming out of the bag behind me. The main risers were trailing me and clear of the reserve risers, so I chopped it.

The right side cleared, the left hung up a bit. I could see the left side three rings and believe that my RSL hung up on the velcro. I hit the riser with my arm, and it cleared. (Please, if you want to have an RSL debate, search one of the numerous other threads on the subject and post there Tongue I'm keeping mine by the way.)

The RSL is the one thing I would/will change and practice in my EP's. If I ever have another scenario where I have pitched my pilot chute and then pull silver, the first thing I'm doing after the reserve is flying (given time, of course) is disconnecting the RSL. I didn't this time and it made things a bit more exciting. Everything turned out OK, but I was fortunate. (Damn, I'm sweating reliving this.)

As to the cause of the PC in tow, I still don't know. I pull the kill line so there's slack in it when I cock the PC, I checked and had color twice on the ground, had a gear check by another person before getting on the plane, and had it checked before the door opened. Ill be talking to Dean (my rigger) today to see if he found anything.

That's my take. Hope it helps. If you want an earful on both sides of this debate at the DZ, talk to Rahmlo and Gelardi. Both have VERY strong opinions on this matter.

Dave


dropzonefool

Apr 23, 2005, 6:52 AM
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Re: [livenletfly] Red or Silver? [In reply to] Can't Post

keep in mind your position will change from freefall to "in the saddle" of your reserve therfore the chance is your alredy cutaway main d-bag will fall between your feet ywords the ground. not up as you say.Wink


adamsr  (C 102479)

Apr 23, 2005, 7:06 AM
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Re: [weegegirl] Red or Silver? [In reply to] Can't Post

personally i would go red then silver.

The guy i bought my rig off only had 1 mal on the rig, and it was a pilot chute in tow, he didn't cutaway and when the reserve left the tray it released tension on the main pin, so the main deployed too.

Now I really dont like the idea of both my canopies deploying at the same time, as I think it's a recipie for disastor, and just asking for a main/reserve entanglement, which is REAL bad news!!


tigra  (C 27417)

Apr 23, 2005, 8:46 AM
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Re: [heidihagen] Red or Silver? [In reply to] Can't Post

Its pretty split, but I personally know of two incidents- neither fatal but both involving serious injuries- where cutting away first CAUSED a main reserve entanglement and left the jumper with little to no options to clear it. If you asked either one of them what they would do in that situation if it happened again, they'd go for silver and they consider themselves lucky to be able to answer the question.

I'd personally rather deal with 2 out than an entanglement. And if they opened entangled, at least you'd have a chance at cutting away the main. The only real advantage I see to cutting away first is to keep your emergency procedures consistent.

Just my opinion- flame away.


marks  (D 22296)

Apr 23, 2005, 9:25 AM
Post #18 of 80 (3832 views)
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Re: [weegegirl] Red or Silver? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
So, after a recent malfunction, there has been much talk/thought about the best procedure for certain scenarios.

So, I ask you guys......

Skydive on. Break off. Pull. Nothing. Your pilot chute is out, but you have a pilot chute in tow for whatever reason. What do you do? Red or silver?

If you cutaway and then go silver, you are risking getting risers and main entangled if they release. If you pull straight silver, and then your main decides to open up, well then you have a double out.

I think there are potential "issues" with either scenario. If it were me, I think if I had a pilot chute out at all, I would cut it away. But now I wonder.


it is easier to have one emergency procedure. in my opionion you will burn up more altitude thinking about weather you should cut away or not because of a pilot chute being in tow.... just make the decision and execute it.

that being said. the one pilot chute in tow mal i had as soon as the reserve bag left the container the pin pulled and out came the main..... i really think if i didnt cut away first then i would have been in SERIOUS trouble...

i always teach my students to have 1 emercency procedure. and if they decide. then the rest is muscle memory,


(This post was edited by marks on Apr 23, 2005, 9:26 AM)


Frenchy68  (A License)

Apr 23, 2005, 9:58 AM
Post #19 of 80 (3818 views)
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Re: [weegegirl] Red or Silver? [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
Nothing. Your pilot chute is out, but you have a pilot chute in tow for whatever reason. What do you do? Red or silver?
Had a PC in the burble once (didn't know it then). I went for red. The motion changed the airflow and the main deployed before I was done peeling off. Dumped at 4k, was in the saddle around 2,500ft. I'd probably react faster today. But burning through 1,500 ft at terminal between deciding what to do, going red, then finding and punching silver becomes scary as one pulls at lower altitude... If I were pulling at 2,500ft or lower, I'd go straight to silver. My own opinion.


Kris  (D 26033)

Apr 23, 2005, 10:27 AM
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Re: [weegegirl] Red or Silver? [In reply to] Can't Post

My personal procedure with a PC-in-Tow is to try once to reach back and yank on the bridle to release the pin.

After that, I count that PC as "something out" and cutaway and then pull silver.


Amazon  (D License)

Apr 23, 2005, 11:32 AM
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Re: [Kris] Red or Silver? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
My personal procedure with a PC-in-Tow is to try once to reach back and yank on the bridle to release the pin.

After that, I count that PC as "something out" and cutaway and then pull silver

I have done that twice now on the two PC in tow I have had.

Both of them I tried to rock side to side.. punching with elbows to no avail.

First time I still could not get it out and went for blast handle( old days with Capewell rig) When the reserve came out.. it release tension on the main container finally and the main came out and went thru the lines of round reserve. Spinning entaglements suck.

Last year when I had my PC in tow the rocking and elbow thing did not work... went to reach back with my hand and this time it did work although I was a tad head down which helped clear the bag off my back... it bounced off one of my feet. It did hurt a bit when the bridle was yanked out of my hand. These are My way of dealing with a PC in tow.. your milage may vary. At least I am consistent.


phoenixlpr  (D 3049)

Apr 23, 2005, 12:00 PM
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Re: [weegegirl] Red or Silver? [In reply to] Can't Post

This is an old bone. Search the forums and you can find at least one thread about this.


NWPoul  (D 178119)

Apr 23, 2005, 12:02 PM
Post #23 of 80 (3769 views)
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Re: [weegegirl] Red or Silver? [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
Break off. Pull. Nothing
...look back - define the mal: PC in burble - change position PC in tow - pull/hit the bridle...all untill hard deck then red/silver.

I had changed my EP for PC in tow mal (from elbow rig -red/silver scenario) after I had read this thread:
http://www.dropzone.com/...;;page=unread#unread


sundevil777  (D License)

Apr 23, 2005, 12:39 PM
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Re: [NWPoul] Red or Silver? [In reply to] Can't Post

I like to watch the bag lift off the container and I can turn back straight in plenty of time for opening. Much to be said for watching the progress of the opening I think.

I would never want a canopy so sensitive to body position that I could not twist my shoulders the little bit it takes.


Premier Remster  (C License)

Apr 23, 2005, 3:36 PM
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Re: [phoenixlpr] Red or Silver? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
This is an old bone. Search the forums and you can find at least one thread about this.

Yeah. It is. Its also the start of the season for lots of people here and it never hurts to discuss this.


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