Forums: Skydiving Disciplines: Swooping and Canopy Control:
Another newbie question: Diffrence between riser turns and hook turns

 


YISkyDive  (D License)

Apr 20, 2005, 11:32 AM
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Another newbie question: Diffrence between riser turns and hook turns Can't Post

Here we go again:

As the title explains:
What is the diffrence between a front riser turn, and a hook turn?

Is a hook turn a toggle turn for a swoop? Or is a Hook turn a 270 degree front riser turn.

Netheir of which i am even close to using, but i think i've seen the terms used interchangable in a few threads that i was reading, and it got me wondering..


sorry for all the stupid question posts.. created a new thread becasue it was seperate from the aerodynamics question.


AggieDave  (D License)

Apr 20, 2005, 11:38 AM
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Re: [YISkyDive] Another newbie question: Diffrence between riser turns and hook turns [In reply to] Can't Post

Good question.

You can do a hook turn on a front riser or a toggle, its the type of turn that makes the difference.

Not the degree of turn, not really the rate of turn (although that does factor in) but the type of turn.

A "hook" turn is done by snapping the toggle or the front riser then letting it up, creating an agressive hooking type motion.

Generally speaking if you watch the pro swoopers you'll see a high degree turn (270-ish) and a relatively quick rate of turn, but you don't really see an agressive hooking motion.


I'd recommend going up to altitude, getting out last (or whatever you DZ requires) and deploying right out the door. Play with your canopy. Do a toggle hook turn. Snap the toggle down then let it up at 180 deg (for example) and see what it feels like. Now do a quick 180 deg turn with the toggle, just not as agressive. See what it feels like. Do the same with your front risers.

Obviously you want to keep an eye on your spot and keep your eyes open for traffic. Keep your maneuvers up high, as well.Smile

Go play with your canopy, use your rear risers, your front risers, toggles, harness leaning and see what you find. Do it all up high by your self, I bet you learn a bit about what your canopy can do and how to fly with different controls.Smile


(This post was edited by AggieDave on Apr 20, 2005, 11:40 AM)


DrewEckhardt  (D 28461)

Apr 20, 2005, 11:57 AM
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Re: [YISkyDive] Another newbie question: Diffrence between riser turns and hook turns [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
As the title explains:
What is the diffrence between a front riser turn, and a hook turn?

Is a hook turn a toggle turn for a swoop? Or is a Hook turn a 270 degree front riser turn.

A front riser turn is a speed inducing turn.

A hook turn is a speed inducing turn that some one doesn't like.

Most people would say a low intentional toggle turn is a hook turn because it's more unsafe than a front riser maneuver.

Some people would say it's a planned low turn that kills you regardless of what you did with risers or toggles.

Some would include unplanned turns that kill people.

The FAA defines it as a maneuver in any sequence that causes the canopy to roll at an angle in excess of 45 degrees from horizontal while executing a turn in excess of 60 degrees. It doesn't say anything about risers or toggles.

If the roll angle never exceeds 45 degrees and you never pull more than 1.4Gs it's not a hook turn.

The FAA does not allow initiating a hook turn below 200 feet on authorized demos except when you're on a DoD sanctioned team like the Golden Knights. I read that as saying you can't exceed a 45 degree roll angle below 200 feet (it's a maneuver that can be done at any point) when turning over 60 degrees.


(This post was edited by DrewEckhardt on Apr 20, 2005, 12:04 PM)


YISkyDive  (D License)

Apr 20, 2005, 12:12 PM
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Re: [AggieDave] Another newbie question: Diffrence between riser turns and hook turns [In reply to] Can't Post

So, when i punch my toggle up high(+1000)ft, and swing in a high G motion, thats a hook? But when, again (+1000ft) i do a carving front riser turn, of 270 degrees, since its a slow but altitude sacrificing speed manuver i am not doing a "hook turn?"

I've done a few high altitude clear and pulls ( 3 i think) ...I love em. You can defenitlly learn a lot in that time.. and i always have two seperate parts in my skydive.. my free fall, and my canopy ride. The 210 triathlon can fly like a dog at times.. but it can also generate some fast and fun manuverus up high, even if it is just 1.1 heh.

But yah... never knew the manuver was independent to a riser or toggle.

Thanks for the reply guys.

-dave


AggieDave  (D License)

Apr 20, 2005, 1:13 PM
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Re: [YISkyDive] Another newbie question: Diffrence between riser turns and hook turns [In reply to] Can't Post

Firstly, please please please practice these maneuvers above 2500ft. It is possible to induce linetwists with some agressive toggle maneuvers. Nevermind that you're starting to get in with some canopy traffic that low.

Also, the response after mine before yours should answer your continuing questions.Smile


YISkyDive  (D License)

Apr 20, 2005, 1:59 PM
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Re: [AggieDave] Another newbie question: Diffrence between riser turns and hook turns [In reply to] Can't Post

If a pilot keeps line tension at all time isnt it theoretically impossible to induce line twists? - not saying thats true.. just what i've been told.

I thought, or have be taught more or less, it gets Real Bad when you loose tension from excesive direction changes that dont follow smooth input. I thrw myself above my canopy once, and lost line tension.. that was an intresting example of what not to do.. it was like at about 5 or 6,000. High hop and pop, but it def was diffrent. What i did was over exagerate the A card requirement, not realizing that an unsmooth direction change could slaughter or cause a "self gift warp" mess.

EDIT: not threw above like a wing over, i was just above my parachute maybe + 10 degrees off of the horizontal axis

-dave.


(This post was edited by YISkyDive on Apr 20, 2005, 2:01 PM)


Hooknswoop  (D License)

Apr 20, 2005, 2:40 PM
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Re: [DrewEckhardt] Another newbie question: Diffrence between riser turns and hook turns [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
The FAA defines

Where does the FAA define a hook turn?

Derek


nicknitro71  (D 26704)

Apr 20, 2005, 4:53 PM
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Re: [DrewEckhardt] Another newbie question: Diffrence between riser turns and hook turns [In reply to] Can't Post

FAA? Do you mean USPA?

PS
If I can't hook it, I ain't jumping it!


Premier billvon  (D 16479)
Moderator
Apr 20, 2005, 6:13 PM
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Re: [YISkyDive] Another newbie question: Diffrence between riser turns and hook turns [In reply to] Can't Post

>If a pilot keeps line tension at all time isnt it theoretically impossible
>to induce line twists? - not saying thats true.. just what i've been told.

No. It is still possible to get them. After all, they occur during opening even when there is tension on the lines.


YISkyDive  (D License)

Apr 20, 2005, 6:17 PM
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Re: [billvon] Another newbie question: Diffrence between riser turns and hook turns [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
No. It is still possible to get them. After all, they occur during opening even when there is tension on the lines.

haha, to che sales men to che. (sp???)

But, in actual performance flight, if one keeps tention on the lines how do you cause your body to wrap the lines?

I actually remember a discusion vaguley with my father that if you snap a toggle to hard you could cause the canopy to turn faster than your body can travel inducing a line twist with a toogle at WOT, and causing a definate cut away, i believe.

I dont remember the exact specifics, so if any one can eleberate that would help.

thanks.

-dave.


bob.dino  (E 2185)

Apr 20, 2005, 6:40 PM
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Re: [YISkyDive] Another newbie question: Diffrence between riser turns and hook turns [In reply to] Can't Post

It's "touch" Tongue. As for the rest of your post, I'll leave that to those more qualified than I.


DrewEckhardt  (D 28461)

Apr 20, 2005, 6:40 PM
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Re: [Hooknswoop] Another newbie question: Diffrence between riser turns and hook turns [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:

Where does the FAA define a hook turn?

Derek

General Aviation Operations Inspector's Handbook

Chapter 49. Issue a certificate of waiver or authorization for an aviation event

Section 1. Background

15. Special provisions

H. Special provisions for parachute jumps

(12)With the exception of DOD-sanctioned teams,no hook turns will be initiated below 200 feet AGL.

NOTE:A hook turn is a maneuver in any maneuver sequence that causes the canopy to roll at an angle in excess of 45 from vertical and/or to pitch up or down at an angle in excess
of 45 from horizontal while executing a turn in excess of 60 .


(This post was edited by DrewEckhardt on Apr 20, 2005, 6:41 PM)


Hooknswoop  (D License)

Apr 20, 2005, 8:25 PM
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Re: [DrewEckhardt] Another newbie question: Diffrence between riser turns and hook turns [In reply to] Can't Post

Thanks.

Derek


Martini  (D 23756)

Apr 20, 2005, 9:35 PM
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Re: [YISkyDive] Another newbie question: Diffrence between riser turns and hook turns [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
I actually remember a discusion vaguley with my father that if you snap a toggle to hard you could cause the canopy to turn faster than your body can travel inducing a line twist with a toogle at WOT, and causing a definate cut away, i believe.

An example of this is doing a snap hook 180 degree (toggle or riser) turn for a swoop. Lots of fun, dangerous in the wrong hands and very capable of causing line twists if you don't "wind up" your torso to match the rapid canopy turn, the canopy can snap around far faster than your relatively massive body can if you don't anticipate. Typical 180 snap hook alt. for a Stiletto might be around 400 or lower. If it spins up you're way to low to chop and you'll be trying to land in twists. It won't be pretty. Got lazy once on a Stiletto 180 snap and got way behind the spin. Landed ok but it scared the shit out of my sorry ass and I never repeated that mistake. I don't do 180 snaps much anymore, they're way fun but very difficult to time.


Maxx  (D 9594)

Apr 21, 2005, 6:52 AM
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Re: [Martini] Another newbie question: Diffrence between riser turns and hook turns [In reply to] Can't Post

I think the stiletto has typically a fast recovery arc... So if I turn my stiletto slowly with the front riser I start at about 400 feet. If I do a snap-turn (up high of course!) I can get a complete 180 in about 200 feet..

But thats just my personal experience (WL 1,6)

Feet up!
Max


CanuckInUSA  (D 26396)

Apr 21, 2005, 8:02 AM
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Re: [Maxx] Another newbie question: Diffrence between riser turns and hook turns [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
I think the stiletto has typically a fast recovery arc... So if I turn my stiletto slowly with the front riser I start at about 400 feet. If I do a snap-turn (up high of course!) I can get a complete 180 in about 200 feet.

This is not something that just happens to Stilettos, it happens to all canopies. The longer your turn rate the more altitude you eat up and a short snappier turn eats up less altitude.


(This post was edited by CanuckInUSA on Apr 21, 2005, 8:29 AM)


Premier SkymonkeyONE  (D 12501)

Apr 21, 2005, 8:15 AM
Post #17 of 20 (823 views)
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Re: [YISkyDive] Another newbie question: Diffrence between riser turns and hook turns [In reply to] Can't Post

A riser turn can be a hook turn as can a toggle turn. In general terms, semantics aside, a hook turn is an agressive, speed-inducing turn that culminates with you flying in ground effect just before touching down. All such turns are "hook turns" in old school verbage. If it's "snappy", it's a hook turn.


YISkyDive  (D License)

Apr 21, 2005, 8:50 AM
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Re: [SkymonkeyONE] Another newbie question: Diffrence between riser turns and hook turns [In reply to] Can't Post

Ok, so lets take this a little bit further than. I just finished brian germains book for the second time, and it made a lot more sense the second time through.

low to the ground, a hook turn is pointless correct? because if your doing one, the rate of turn is so fast that you arnt gaining maximum acceleration, and limiting your capabalitly of having "outs" because of a higher potential to induce a dynamic stall?

more approperate is a long and deep 6 to 8 second risers turn that can be speed up as need, but giving your canopy a much shorter recovery arc to the speed? because more speed would = a smaller recovery arc, correct?

all the info is plently helpful guys, thanks

dave.


Premier SkymonkeyONE  (D 12501)

Apr 21, 2005, 12:22 PM
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Re: [YISkyDive] Another newbie question: Diffrence between riser turns and hook turns [In reply to] Can't Post

Six to eight seconds is a LONG time to be spending in a turn. The average turn, regardless of degree of rotation, is four seconds with some competitors banging them out even quicker. If you jump a canopy with a very-long recovery arc, it is entirely possible to throw a hard turn and then settle into an incredibly steep dive for many hundreds of feet. Still, I think we are dealing with a simple play on words here. A "hook turn" is simply an agressive, HP turn executed prior to landing. There are plenty of people that refer to tall, carving HP turns as "hook turns" for the simple fact that they are speed inducing.


YISkyDive  (D License)

Apr 21, 2005, 12:57 PM
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Re: [SkymonkeyONE] Another newbie question: Diffrence between riser turns and hook turns [In reply to] Can't Post

OK, thanks for the info.

-dave



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