Forums: Skydiving: Safety and Training:
Would you lower your min cutaway altitude if you had a Skyhook?

 

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Poll: Would you lower your min cutaway altitude if you had a Skyhook?
Yes 25 / 14%
No 149 / 86%
174 total votes
 
Hooknswoop  (D License)

Apr 13, 2005, 11:09 AM
Post #1 of 120 (2431 views)
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Would you lower your min cutaway altitude if you had a Skyhook? Can't Post

Why or why not?

Derek


Ron

Apr 13, 2005, 11:12 AM
Post #2 of 120 (2413 views)
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Re: [Hooknswoop] Would you lower your min cutaway altitude if you had a Skyhook? [In reply to] Can't Post

No, the idea of additional saftey devices is to make things safer, not allow dumber things.


Premier ianmdrennan  (D 25821)
Moderator
Apr 13, 2005, 11:15 AM
Post #3 of 120 (2400 views)
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Re: [Hooknswoop] Would you lower your min cutaway altitude if you had a Skyhook? [In reply to] Can't Post

Not my decision hard deck no.

However if I was in a world of shit after a collision under canopy low to the ground (think Todd from Skydive Eloy) I'd probably feel a lot more comfy (note that doesn't mean comfortable, just more) than having no skyhook.

Blues,
Ian


BIGUN  (D 23385)

Apr 13, 2005, 11:19 AM
Post #4 of 120 (2385 views)
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Re: [Hooknswoop] Would you lower your min cutaway altitude if you had a Skyhook? [In reply to] Can't Post

No.
PSB# 20031203 /12.03.2003 / Skyhook RSL Inspection

I've seen it work in a "real world" cutaway and it's a magical thing to watch. But, 1) it is not meant as a replacement for good-decision-making and 2) I agree with Ron.


(This post was edited by BIGUN on Apr 13, 2005, 11:23 AM)


AndyMan  (D 25698)

Apr 13, 2005, 11:24 AM
Post #5 of 120 (2371 views)
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Re: [Hooknswoop] Would you lower your min cutaway altitude if you had a Skyhook? [In reply to] Can't Post

If I had reason to think a low cuttaway would improve an otherwise fatal situation? Absolutely.



_Am


SkydiveMO  (D License)

Apr 13, 2005, 11:35 AM
Post #6 of 120 (2350 views)
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Re: [Hooknswoop] Would you lower your min cutaway altitude if you had a Skyhook? [In reply to] Can't Post

It may speed reserve deployment but it cant improve my reaction time. Id keep my decision altitudes the same with the higher margin of safety. If I cant decide immediately whether a canopy is savable or not then it probably isnt. Why burn up valuable time and altitude just because theoretically I can? Like everyone else has said it would have me feeling a little more comfortable in an extreme case like canopy collision at a low altitude though.


Ron

Apr 13, 2005, 11:39 AM
Post #7 of 120 (2339 views)
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Re: [AndyMan] Would you lower your min cutaway altitude if you had a Skyhook? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
If I had reason to think a low cuttaway would improve an otherwise fatal situation? Absolutely.

Then why did you not vote "yes"?

And the question was not would you cut away lower then normal if the shit hit the fan...

The question was would you LOWER your planned hard deck.


LawnDart21  (D License)

Apr 13, 2005, 11:44 AM
Post #8 of 120 (2324 views)
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Re: [Hooknswoop] Would you lower your min cutaway altitude if you had a Skyhook? [In reply to] Can't Post

Great question Derek. I answered no for two reasons.
1) I got through the first 1750 skydives with a set routine & set decision altitude. If it ain't broke, don't fix it, right?
2) I have two cars. One has seat belts only. The other has seatbelts and airbags. I drive them both with the same amount of caution.

Blue skies, Tom


(This post was edited by LawnDart21 on Apr 13, 2005, 11:45 AM)


AndyMan  (D 25698)

Apr 13, 2005, 11:50 AM
Post #9 of 120 (2313 views)
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Re: [Ron] Would you lower your min cutaway altitude if you had a Skyhook? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Then why did you not vote "yes"?

Because I don't have a "minumum cuttaway altitude".

The question didn't ask about a "hard deck", it asked about a "mininum cuttaway altitude". There is a difference.

I have a hard deck, which is 1500 feet. If there's any shit going on below that, then all rules are off. I'll do whatever I think will get me on the ground safest. That may, or may not include cutting away below an arbitrary altitude some stranger pulled from thin air.


_Am


(This post was edited by AndyMan on Apr 13, 2005, 11:57 AM)


ladyskydiver

Apr 13, 2005, 11:51 AM
Post #10 of 120 (2311 views)
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Re: [Hooknswoop] Would you lower your min cutaway altitude if you had a Skyhook? [In reply to] Can't Post

No. A safety device is cool, but it's a backup and isn't failsafe.


NeedToJump  (D 27247)

Apr 13, 2005, 11:57 AM
Post #11 of 120 (2299 views)
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Re: [AndyMan] Would you lower your min cutaway altitude if you had a Skyhook? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
have a hard deck, which is 1500 feet. If there's any shit going on below that, then all rules are off. I'll do whatever I think will get me on the ground safest.

Wait a minute - you have a plan for what you'll do above 1500 ft but absolutely none for under 1500 ft?


jlmiracle  (D License)

Apr 13, 2005, 12:03 PM
Post #12 of 120 (2288 views)
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Re: [Hooknswoop] Would you lower your min cutaway altitude if you had a Skyhook? [In reply to] Can't Post

No, because it would be stupid to rely on a man made device.

Judy


Hooknswoop  (D License)

Apr 13, 2005, 12:21 PM
Post #13 of 120 (2264 views)
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Re: [Hooknswoop] Would you lower your min cutaway altitude if you had a Skyhook? [In reply to] Can't Post

28: No
0: Yes

Can anyone explain to me why someone would make a jump with an AAD they wouldn't make without an AAD? I see it as the same reasons listed above appling to AAD's. You wouldn't rely on the Skyhook to do it's job and cutaway any lower than you normally would, but some people would make a jump they normally wouldn't because they have an AAD. I don't see a difference.

Derek


DShiznit  (B 27023)

Apr 13, 2005, 12:27 PM
Post #14 of 120 (2250 views)
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Re: [Hooknswoop] Would you lower your min cutaway altitude if you had a Skyhook? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
28: No
0: Yes

Can anyone explain to me why someone would make a jump with an AAD they wouldn't make without an AAD? I see it as the same reasons listed above appling to AAD's. You wouldn't rely on the Skyhook to do it's job and cutaway any lower than you normally would, but some people would make a jump they normally wouldn't because they have an AAD. I don't see a difference.

Derek

I don't freefall without an AAD, but I'll make a CRW jump w/o one.

Cool


LawnDart21  (D License)

Apr 13, 2005, 12:38 PM
Post #15 of 120 (2235 views)
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Re: [Hooknswoop] Would you lower your min cutaway altitude if you had a Skyhook? [In reply to] Can't Post

I can only think of one type of jump I wouldn't make without an AAD, really big ways. Too many variables with 80 to 100 other people trying to get in to the formation and then turning around and getting back out. I witnessed a collison at 12,000ft where a tunnel visioned jumper fullout tracked right through another jumper flying their slot waiting for the formation to build. How he wasnt knocked out cold, I will never know. It was like a car wreck.


pilotdave  (D License)

Apr 13, 2005, 12:44 PM
Post #16 of 120 (2224 views)
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Re: [Hooknswoop] Would you lower your min cutaway altitude if you had a Skyhook? [In reply to] Can't Post

Well I voted yes, but it's more of a maybe along the lines someone mentioned above. My hard deck hasn't changed. But the lowest altitude I'd CONSIDER cutting away is lower with the skyhook because with the skyhook, it might be less risky to cut away than to simply pull the reserve into a malfunctioning main. Again, no change to where I plan to make a decision about a normal malfunction during deployment. The change is only when the shit hits the fan below my "hard deck" (need quotes since maybe it's not so hard anymore).

Why pull the reserve without cutting away if the probability I'll survive is higher by cutting away? (Not saying that's necessarily true, just saying that if it IS true, cutting away at a lower altitude because of the skyhook makes more sense).

Dave


pilotdave  (D License)

Apr 13, 2005, 12:52 PM
Post #17 of 120 (2215 views)
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Re: [jlmiracle] Would you lower your min cutaway altitude if you had a Skyhook? [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
No, because it would be stupid to rely on a man made device.

I just don't understand that way of thinking. Who made your reserve? God? (Bill Booth only makes containers, sorry. Tongue) Who made your harness? Who made the twin otter? Who made anything we ever rely on to keep us safe? Do you avoid going near tall buildings? They're man made, they could fail at any time, right?

How did you choose the minimum altitude at which you'd cut away?

Dave


Ron

Apr 13, 2005, 1:05 PM
Post #18 of 120 (2188 views)
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Re: [AndyMan] Would you lower your min cutaway altitude if you had a Skyhook? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
The question didn't ask about a "hard deck", it asked about a "mininum cuttaway altitude". There is a difference

Really? Gee I wonder what a Hard deck is?Crazy

In reply to:
I have a hard deck, which is 1500 feet. If there's any shit going on below that, then all rules are off. I'll do whatever I think will get me on the ground safest.

You had better train those "Plans"

In reply to:
That may, or may not include cutting away below an arbitrary altitude some stranger pulled from thin air.

Arbitrary altitude pulled from thin air? You clearly have no idea how the BSR's were written.


(This post was edited by Ron on Apr 13, 2005, 1:07 PM)


AndyMan  (D 25698)

Apr 13, 2005, 1:08 PM
Post #19 of 120 (2185 views)
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Re: [NeedToJump] Would you lower your min cutaway altitude if you had a Skyhook? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Wait a minute - you have a plan for what you'll do above 1500 ft but absolutely none for under 1500 ft?

Correct. A malfunction at 1,500 feet is relatively straight forward issue to deal with.

A wrap at 500 feet is altogeather a completely different animal. Whatever I end up doing to correct it will be based on countless different variables, some of which are:

1) Can I reach my handles?
2) Will the reserve deploy cleanly?
3) Am I tangled with my main?
4) Am I tangled with the other persons main?
5) Do I have an RSL ?
6) Do I have a skyHook ?

Those are six critical issue which will affect how I choose to proceed. That makes a combination of 720 different possible combinations. I certainly do not plan on coming up with 720 different plans of action prior to my next skydive. I will deal with that situation if it presents itself.

Through respecting my hard deck and being a aware pilot, I prefer to avoid being in that situation in the first place.


_Am


jlmiracle  (D License)

Apr 13, 2005, 1:10 PM
Post #20 of 120 (2183 views)
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Re: [pilotdave] Would you lower your min cutaway altitude if you had a Skyhook? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Quote:
No, because it would be stupid to rely on a man made device.

I just don't understand that way of thinking. Who made your reserve? God? (Bill Booth only makes containers, sorry. Tongue) Who made your harness? Who made the twin otter? Who made anything we ever rely on to keep us safe? Do you avoid going near tall buildings? They're man made, they could fail at any time, right?

How did you choose the minimum altitude at which you'd cut away?

Dave

I have chosen my minimum cutaway altitude from what I've learned in my FJC and others experiences, especially from those that have chosen theirs too low.

I'm not going to rely on it to pull my reserve at a lower altitude cause its SUPPOSE to work at an altitude below MY hard deck.

I understand completely that all my gear is man made and can malfunction at any time. I just don't feel like increasing my risk by lowering my hard deck, regardless of who or what makes it.

Judy


AndyMan  (D 25698)

Apr 13, 2005, 1:18 PM
Post #21 of 120 (2173 views)
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Re: [Ron] Would you lower your min cutaway altitude if you had a Skyhook? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Really? Gee I wonder what a Hard deck is?Crazy

Well, at least you're respectful - as usual.

A hard deck is an altitude at which you deal with a pre-existing malfunction.

That's quite different than a "minimum cutaway altitude", which I presume is an altitude from which you do not cuttaway below.

My hard deck is 1,500 feet. My minumum cutaway altitude is situationaly dependent.

Having a Hard Deck of 1,500 feet most certainly does NOT mean that I won't cuttaway from a wrap that occurs at 1,400 feet.

I will refrain from cutting away from that same wrap at 200 feet.

There is no BSR for either "minimum cuttaway altitude", or "hard deck". Stop talking out of your ass.

_Am


(This post was edited by AndyMan on Apr 13, 2005, 1:20 PM)


Premier slotperfect  (D 13014)

Apr 13, 2005, 1:18 PM
Post #22 of 120 (2171 views)
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Re: [Hooknswoop] Would you lower your min cutaway altitude if you had a Skyhook? [In reply to] Can't Post

No. I would keep my hard deck the same. There is still a lot to do in a hurry after the reserve opens: Getting on the wind line, finding an alternate landing area (in some places), determining the stall point of the canopy, etc. All of that is vital no matter the method of reserve deployment - I want to complete it all if I can. And of course, because Murphy chooses the worst possible time for stuff to happen, my Factory Diver would fog up. Crazy

I jump an AAD. Under some circumstances I would jump without one. There is not jump I won't make if I don't have one, other than military jumps for which the regulations require them.

I don't own a Vector III, but I do jump Sigma Tandem rigs with Skyhooks installed. I jump them with confidence, and look forward to the opportunity to put a jump on their Skyhook cutaway rig.

Quote:
I have two cars. One has seat belts only. The other has seatbelts and airbags. I drive them both with the same amount of caution.

That is an excellent analogy. Thanks for that! Cool


larsrulz  (C 34603)

Apr 13, 2005, 1:37 PM
Post #23 of 120 (2136 views)
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Re: [slotperfect] Would you lower your min cutaway altitude if you had a Skyhook? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Quote:
I have two cars. One has seat belts only. The other has seatbelts and airbags. I drive them both with the same amount of caution.

That is an excellent analogy. Thanks for that! Cool

I agree that it is an excellent analogy. Take for example a car with side airbags and one with only front. If I knew a collision were going to be happening in 5 seconds (something which can be known after a canopy collision below 1000'), then I would be be less concerned with a side impact from an SUV if my car had side airbags than one without. If I can orient my car without side airbags to take less a side impact, then I will do that, even if it may mean a harder impact. Now this generally doesn't happen as you don't have that much time to plan for a car accident. But I can tell you for a fact that with my mirage I would pull my reserve without cutting away below 1000'. I would never cutaway without that reserve above my head below that 1000'. If I had a skyhook on my same rig, then I would potentially change that minimum cutaway altitude. I would never change my hard deck or decision altitude of 2000', because that's just plain dumb, but changing ones minimum cutaway altitude is a totally different beast (well, not totally, but still different). That's talking about when the shit hits the fan and you're already dead. I would do whatever has the best chance of giving me my life back. If the skyhook increases the likelihood of me getting my life back, then I would definitely change my minimum cutaway altitude. If a skyhook means that it is less likely that my reserve will entangle with my main at 800', then by god I'll do whatever will save my ass.


pilotdave  (D License)

Apr 13, 2005, 1:42 PM
Post #24 of 120 (2123 views)
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Re: [Hooknswoop] Would you lower your min cutaway altitude if you had a Skyhook? [In reply to] Can't Post

Hook: I want to hear your answers to these (pretend you skydive for a minute).

1. What's your minimum cutaway altitude (assuming no skyhook)?

2. You're using a skyhook equipped rig and someone flies right through your canopy at an altitude somewhere between your minimum cutaway altitude and say 300 feet, causing serious damage to your canopy, and putting it into a nasty spin. You need to use your reserve to survive. Do you just pull your reserve, as presumably you would with a non-skyhook rig, or do you cut away?

3. Same situation but this time the other jumper entangles with your canopy.

Dave


Hooknswoop  (D License)

Apr 13, 2005, 2:02 PM
Post #25 of 120 (2092 views)
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Re: [pilotdave] Would you lower your min cutaway altitude if you had a Skyhook? [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
. What's your minimum cutaway altitude (assuming no skyhook)?

500 ft

Quote:
2. You're using a skyhook equipped rig and someone flies right through your canopy at an altitude somewhere between your minimum cutaway altitude and say 300 feet, causing serious damage to your canopy, and putting it into a nasty spin. You need to use your reserve to survive. Do you just pull your reserve, as presumably you would with a non-skyhook rig, or do you cut away?

Just fire the reserve.

Quote:
3. Same situation but this time the other jumper entangles with your canopy.

It would depend on several factors. I would either fire the reserve or not based on those factors.

Too many skydiver negate the increased safety potential of safety devices by increasing their risk level when they have them. I strongly disagree with this practice.

Derek


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