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Tandem Passengers Under the Influence?

 

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JohnRich  (D License)

Apr 4, 2005, 3:24 PM
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Tandem Passengers Under the Influence? Can't Post

I will propose a purely hypothetical situation here, and then invite comment.

Suppose a group of young adults show up at the DZ for tandem jumps. After taking care of all the preliminary stuff, while awaiting their turn for a ride, they hang out by their car and start drinking beer. After a while, someone notices that they are drinking and makes them stop, knowing that they are signed up for tandems. Let's say they only had about one beer each, and did not act or appear to be drunk.

What do you do with them at that point about their tandem jumps? Do you send them home without their ride? Or do you take them up?

Experienced jumpers are not allowed to drink and jump. Should the rules be a little more lax for tandem passengers, since they aren't really in control of their own equipment?


(This post was edited by JohnRich on Apr 4, 2005, 3:26 PM)


FrogNog  (C 34484)

Apr 4, 2005, 3:35 PM
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Re: [JohnRich] Tandem Passengers Under the Influence? [In reply to] Can't Post

I think they should be treated like airmen. (One set of rules.)


diablopilot  (D License)

Apr 4, 2005, 3:48 PM
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Re: [JohnRich] Tandem Passengers Under the Influence? [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
What do you do with them at that point about their tandem jumps? Do you send them home without their ride?

Absolutely.


SCR10480  (D 27870)

Apr 4, 2005, 4:23 PM
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Re: [JohnRich] Tandem Passengers Under the Influence? [In reply to] Can't Post

They go home, I keep their money, they come back sober, they make their jump.

No exceptions.


kelpdiver  (B 7)

Apr 4, 2005, 4:27 PM
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Re: [SCR10480] Tandem Passengers Under the Influence? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
They go home, I keep their money, they come back sober, they make their jump.

No exceptions.

Seems like you could even justify just keeping the money. Won't generate customer satisfaction, but they just burned a lot of slots.


NSEMN8R  (D 26397)

Apr 4, 2005, 4:44 PM
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Re: [JohnRich] Tandem Passengers Under the Influence? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Let's say they only had about one beer each, and did not act or appear to be drunk.

I'll probably catch some shit for saying it, but if they only had 1 beer and I was absolutely sure they were sober, I'd probably jump with them. It would definitley depend on the students' attitudes and actions, but really their alcohol content after 1 beer is probably lower than some of the people who party hard on Friday night and show up for the 8am tandem class on Saturday morning.


feuergnom  (D License)

Apr 5, 2005, 12:29 AM
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Re: [JohnRich] Tandem Passengers Under the Influence? [In reply to] Can't Post

i'm not an instructor but i did all the ground work for two instructors for two seasons.
there was (and still is) one simple rule: you drink alcohol or have a smoke or are intoxicated with any other stuff proir to jumping ----» come back next weekend and better be completely clean


Tink1717  (D 12524)

Apr 5, 2005, 2:40 AM
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Re: [JohnRich] Tandem Passengers Under the Influence? [In reply to] Can't Post

Taking a tandem passenger who has been drinking is a BAD idea. Tandem passengers are, at times, unpredictable. Add beer/booze into the mix and it amplifies that unpredictability. Not good.


Ron

Apr 5, 2005, 4:47 AM
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Re: [NSEMN8R] Tandem Passengers Under the Influence? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
I'll probably catch some shit for saying it, but if they only had 1 beer and I was absolutely sure they were sober, I'd probably jump with them. It would definitley depend on the students' attitudes and actions, but really their alcohol content after 1 beer is probably lower than some of the people who party hard on Friday night and show up for the 8am tandem class on Saturday morning.

You would also be breaking FAR § 91.17 and § 105.7
Quote:
§ 105.7

No person may conduct a parachute operation, and no pilot in command of an aircraft may allow a person to conduct a parachute operation from that aircraft, if that person is or appears to be under the influence of—

(a) Alcohol, or

(b) Any drug that affects that person's faculties in any way contrary to safety.

§ 105.45 will bite you since it says you have to hold a master license and pass the manufactorers course:

Quote:
(iii) Holds a master parachute license issued by an organization recognized by the FAA, and

(iv) Has successfully completed a tandem instructor course given by the manufacturer of the tandem parachute system used in the parachute operation or a course acceptable to the Administrator.

The BSRs:
Quote:
B. Compliance with Federal regulations [NW]

1. No skydive may be made in violation of Federal Aviation Administration (FAA) regulations.

From the Relative workshop:
Quote:
6. Buyer agrees that it shall not use the Tandem Parachute System in violation of any FARs,
or other federal, state, municipal, or other governmental regulations, or any United States
Parachute Association Basic Safety Requirements
(BSRs).



You would also be VERY easy to sue if they got hurt.

Judge: "Did you know they had been drinking?"
You: "Yes"
Judge: "thats against the law, against the rules of the USPA, Against the rules of the maker of the Tandem system, even listed in your OWN waiver"
You: "Yeah"
Judge: "You are toast dude"

Bad idea.


tkhayes  (D 18764)

Apr 5, 2005, 4:52 AM
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Re: [JohnRich] Tandem Passengers Under the Influence? [In reply to] Can't Post

happened just the other day here, despite signs posted and such. Sad part is that we sold them the beer, Mistake on our part but they were there with friends and the friends were the ones buying the beer.

They did not get to go, they were pissed, I make no exceptions no matter what.

Not worth it.

TK


skysurfcam  (F 446)

Apr 5, 2005, 5:22 AM
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Re: [Ron] Tandem Passengers Under the Influence? [In reply to] Can't Post

1 beer, plus 2 hours. Legally, would they still be "under the influence"

Anyone got a definitive reference.

'Course it's an easy question here in Aus. 8 hours b/n booze and the door is stipulated in the op regs.

C.


Ron

Apr 5, 2005, 5:48 AM
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Re: [skysurfcam] Tandem Passengers Under the Influence? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
1 beer, plus 2 hours. Legally, would they still be "under the influence"

Anyone got a definitive reference.

§ 91.17
a) No person may act or attempt to act as a crewmember of a civil aircraft—

(1) Within 8 hours after the consumption of any alcoholic beverage;

(2) While under the influence of alcohol;

(3) While using any drug that affects the person's faculties in any way contrary to safety; or

(4) While having .04 percent by weight or more alcohol in the blood.


(b) Except in an emergency, no pilot of a civil aircraft may allow a person who appears to be intoxicated or who demonstrates by manner or physical indications that the individual is under the influence of drugs (except a medical patient under proper care) to be carried in that aircraft.

Quote:
§ 105.7 Use of alcohol and drugs.
No person may conduct a parachute operation, and no pilot in command of an aircraft may allow a person to conduct a parachute operation from that aircraft, if that person is or appears to be under the influence of—

(a) Alcohol, or

(b) Any drug that affects that person's faculties in any way contrary to safety.

8 hours is what the FAA says for Pilot in Command...Anyone want to guess what they call a tandem master? Parachutist in Command.

I would bet that the FAA would slam the shit out of you.

And like I said before...The lawyers would tear you apart...Why risk it?


LawnDart21  (D License)

Apr 5, 2005, 6:02 AM
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Re: [JohnRich] Tandem Passengers Under the Influence? [In reply to] Can't Post

Done for the day. As Ron said, it's actually very clear, 8 hours must pass from time the drink is consumed before they can jump. Even if its "just one", it don't matter to the FAA if it's one or ten beers, so it don't matter to me. I wont risk my rating and income for anyone, let alone a one time tandem jumper who can't abide by our clearly defined rules, I'd rather piss them off and keep my rating than make them happy and risk losing it.


jlmiracle  (D License)

Apr 5, 2005, 7:32 AM
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Re: [JohnRich] Tandem Passengers Under the Influence? [In reply to] Can't Post

We had a group show up to to tandems and we watched a guy pull up drinking a beer driving his very pregnant wife.

We sent someone out to see make sure it was beer. We asked the guy is that beer, he said yes, we asked if he was scheduled to make a jump, he said yes, we said you will need to reschedule for a time when you havent' been drinking.

No drinking and jumping.


NSEMN8R  (D 26397)

Apr 5, 2005, 7:46 AM
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Re: [Ron] Tandem Passengers Under the Influence? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:

§ 91.17
a) No person may act or attempt to act as a crewmember of a civil aircraft—

(1) Within 8 hours after the consumption of any alcoholic beverage;

(2) While under the influence of alcohol;

(3) While using any drug that affects the person's faculties in any way contrary to safety; or

(4) While having .04 percent by weight or more alcohol in the blood.


(b) Except in an emergency, no pilot of a civil aircraft may allow a person who appears to be intoxicated or who demonstrates by manner or physical indications that the individual is under the influence of drugs (except a medical patient under proper care) to be carried in that aircraft.

Quote:
§ 105.7 Use of alcohol and drugs.
No person may conduct a parachute operation, and no pilot in command of an aircraft may allow a person to conduct a parachute operation from that aircraft, if that person is or appears to be under the influence of—

(a) Alcohol, or

(b) Any drug that affects that person's faculties in any way contrary to safety.


8 hours is what the FAA says for Pilot in Command...Anyone want to guess what they call a tandem master? Parachutist in Command.


Would a tandem passenger fall into the category of "crewmember of a civil aircraft"?

I can see where the 8 hr. rule would apply to a TM as "Parachutist in Command", but the passenger?

Unless tandem passengers are considered crewmembers of a civil aircraft, I don't see how "1 beer a couple hours ago" would have anything to do with the FAR's you listed. It certainly wouldn't put them over the .04% BAC limit that § 91.17 states.


Ron

Apr 5, 2005, 8:39 AM
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Re: [NSEMN8R] Tandem Passengers Under the Influence? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Would a tandem passenger fall into the category of "crewmember of a civil aircraft"?

No

In reply to:
Unless tandem passengers are considered crewmembers of a civil aircraft, I don't see how "1 beer a couple hours ago" would have anything to do with the FAR's you listed. It certainly wouldn't put them over the .04% BAC limit that § 91.17 states.

Peep § 105.7
Quote:
§ 105.7 Use of alcohol and drugs.
No person may conduct a parachute operation, and no pilot in command of an aircraft may allow a person to conduct a parachute operation from that aircraft, if that person is or appears to be under the influence of—

(a) Alcohol, or


If you drink one beer, you ARE under the influence. That way not change the way you act, but you are under the influence.

You can say all you want about "But it is only one beer".

One little beer makes you under the influence...It may have no observable influence, but you ARE under the influence.

Besides, read your waiver.

From ours:
Quote:
I am not taking any medication of any kind. I have not taken any alcoholic beverages or drugs within the last twelve hours.

Now CAN it been done? Yes of course. I have seen really drunk folks jumping , Seen stoned folks jumping, had tandems tell me AFTER the jump they had been drinking.

But to knowingly let them jump after drinking is gonna bite you bad if something goes wrong.


More

It IS Illegal.
It is a liability that will bite you in the ass.
There is no reason to allow it.


aironscott

Apr 5, 2005, 12:35 PM
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Re: [Ron] Tandem Passengers Under the Influence? [In reply to] Can't Post

These are all good points. Here is another one. Every state in the US that I know of makes any contract made while under the influence, void. That means that if they have been drinking, smoking, or whatever they can not sign a waiver and the waiver hold up in any court.
Not to mention that its just a stupid idea to let tandem passengers drink and jump.


kelpdiver  (B 7)

Apr 5, 2005, 12:44 PM
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Re: [Ron] Tandem Passengers Under the Influence? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
If you drink one beer, you ARE under the influence. That way not change the way you act, but you are under the influence.

I personally agree with that statement, Ron, but is that really true per the codes you listed? The fact that it used the phrase "under the influence" OR a max of .04 suggests otherwise.


NSEMN8R  (D 26397)

Apr 5, 2005, 1:25 PM
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Re: Tandem Passengers Under the Influence? [In reply to] Can't Post

I'm a very safety conscious jumper. I don't condone being under the influence of ANYTHING while jumping. If I thought a student had done anything that would affect his attitude or performance I wouldn't even consider taking him up.

What if it was less than a beer? What if it was a sip off someone else's beer? Would you turn a blind eye to that or is he still "under the influence".

The right answer according to the rules you're describing is probably to send them home, but would you really be like that over a sip of beer?


LukeOliver  (F 600)

Apr 5, 2005, 1:46 PM
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Re: [JohnRich] Tandem Passengers Under the Influence? [In reply to] Can't Post

Nah. Play the game, follow the rules, keep it simple.

You rebook them for another day. They don't have to miss out altogether.

As an aside:
1) Tandem customers are more likely to throw up than sports jumpers.
2) Humans in general are more likely to throw up after drinking.
Those odds are now less in our favour.

L.


AggieDave  (D License)

Apr 5, 2005, 2:04 PM
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Re: [kelpdiver] Tandem Passengers Under the Influence? [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
The fact that it used the phrase "under the influence" OR a max of .04 suggests otherwise.

I'm not sure about your state's laws, but in TX "under the influence" can be 1 light drink or 100 hard drinks. It doesn't mean legally intoxicated (.08 here in TX), all it means is you took something (doesn't have to be liquor either) that impares your ability.

If I see them drink or I can tell they've been drinking, they're not going on a skydive. End of story. We'll reschedule you for a later date, though.

Yes, I'm in TX and yes we've had students pull up to the DZ with a beer in their hand, finish it, get out of the truck and toss the empty in the bed. We've told those students the same thing: "you can't go, we told you not to drink, please reschedule..."


SCR10480  (D 27870)

Apr 5, 2005, 3:00 PM
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Re: [AggieDave] Tandem Passengers Under the Influence? [In reply to] Can't Post

Hi Aggie! I'm from Texas (a long ways from)! and I was wonderin'...do ya'll have gun racks in the back winder of yer plane too?Laugh


AggieDave  (D License)

Apr 5, 2005, 3:01 PM
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Re: [SCR10480] Tandem Passengers Under the Influence? [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
Hi Aggie! I'm from Texas (a long ways from)! and I was wonderin'...do ya'll have gun racks in the back winder of yer plane too?

Hahaha! We did, but we couldn't get an IA to sign off on it so we had to take it out.LaughTongue


obelixtim  (D 84)

Apr 5, 2005, 3:27 PM
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Re: [NSEMN8R] Tandem Passengers Under the Influence? [In reply to] Can't Post

 A tandem passenger falls exactly into the same category as a passenger in any commercial aircraft........so why is it such a big deal.....unless the individual is blind drunk.....

So every airline that serves an alcoholic drink is breaking FAA rules???????......Can't see it myself......

Can't see any big deal about someone having a cold beer on a hot day.....I wouldn't have a problem with it unless they spewed in the plane or over me......thats perhaps the best reason to make them wait........

A tandem rider is not "conducting" parachute operations....he's going for a ride......

I've been at a world meet where beer was served at breakfast, lunch and dinner to all competitors, every day........no one thought anything of it...............common sense prevailed.........

Some of you take this issue so seriously I can't understand where you are coming from.......lighten up a little........your clients are there for some fun. Thats what skydiving is ABOUT......

Banning someone for one beer is a total overreaction.......

Ready....aim.....FIRE!!!!!.....


AggieDave  (D License)

Apr 5, 2005, 3:34 PM
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Re: [obelixtim] Tandem Passengers Under the Influence? [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
A tandem rider is not "conducting" parachute operations....he's going for a ride....

Not as it stands in the US. A tadems student IS a tandem student. We treat them as such. Even if its not a Cat A or Cat B tandem, its still an intorductory tandem with training, similar to an introductory flight for someone wanting to persue their pilots license.

Treating tandems like a carnival ride is wrong, treat your students as students and with respect, that includes teaching them about respecting the rules for skydiving as stated for your country's skydiving organization.


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