Forums: Skydiving: Safety and Training:
A little freaked out

 


tumbler  (D 29323)

Mar 31, 2005, 6:30 PM
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A little freaked out Can't Post

I made my 17th jump on Sunday and I got into a wicked spin. I was jumping to practice turns before I went up with a JM for sign off. I had a nice exit at 9k and was belly to earth quickly. I did a slow 360 to the right and a slow 360 to the left. at about 6k I started one last turn for a 4k pull... and when I started the turn didnt stop. Everything I did only made me turn harder and faster. I clicked my heals and the turn slowed and I pulled about 3k, down safe and sound. I imagine I made about 40 turns in those moments of uncontrolled decent, but it may have been lessUnimpressed.

My question to all you skygods is two fold.. I am now a little freaked out from the spin... what could I/should I have done different? How or what is the best way to stop a spin in FF?

I have talked to the JM's at the DZ and will continue to until I get back in the plane, but the more people you talk to the better the breadth in information and depth of responses you can get, so I look for more clues to this fine art...

Thanks.Smile


FrogNog  (C 34484)

Mar 31, 2005, 6:35 PM
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Re: [tumbler] A little freaked out [In reply to] Can't Post

I would have pulled higher, for starters.


ladyskydiver

Mar 31, 2005, 6:55 PM
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Re: [tumbler] A little freaked out [In reply to] Can't Post

Disclaimer: I'm not a skygoddess! Wink

When I was a student and got into spins, I (luckily) had a JM there that was able to tell me what I was doing wrong as just like you - I thought I was doing everything correct by tapping my toes, etc. It's not just your toes but your knees and your shoulders. If your legs were perfect but one of your shoulders had been a little low, that, also, would account for a spin.

Go up and do another jump. Ask a vidiot to be there with you and video your jump. And have a JM with you as well to "watch" what you're doing. Between the JM seeing and the vidiot having it on tape, you'll be able to not only hear what you're doing but also see.

Another suggestion...if you have the time and cash, try getting into a wind tunnel with a coach. They are great training tools.


Superman32  (B 28074)

Mar 31, 2005, 7:50 PM
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Re: [ladyskydiver] A little freaked out [In reply to] Can't Post

Toe taps???

I've recently taken the FJC and refreshers (at different dzs) and I have never heard of toe taps.

Yes, I'll ask my instructors -- but what is the purpose of to taps, when would you do it, and how do you do it?


AggieDave  (D License)

Mar 31, 2005, 7:54 PM
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Re: [Superman32] A little freaked out [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
Yes, I'll ask my instructors -- but what is the purpose of to taps, when would you do it, and how do you do it?

You need to get the SIM...this is in thereWinkWink

You get a hand sign for toe taps and you tap your feet together. If your feet aren't symetrical then your feet will miss and you'll get it on the second tap.

It helps people with "crazy legs" that induce turns and bad body positions. You're going for a neutral body position, knees, legs and feet and toes even...It takes a few jumps to get it right/perfect (a few like more then AFF) but even without booties, if you have a knee low or your feet unsymetrical it can cause serious problems.

Its a very common issue. Nearly as common as feet on the ass and a flat body (hips not forward).Wink


apixel  (B 28737)

Mar 31, 2005, 8:46 PM
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Re: [AggieDave] A little freaked out [In reply to] Can't Post

Ha ha ... yeah ... I tried booties yesterday and they took me for a ride. At least Ron wasn't there to watch me and there were no tunnels walls to keep bouncing off.Wink I also got into a spin. ( my presecond one ) And toe taps brought me back to "some" control. Back to no booties for a while for me. The track was exciting though. WOOSH!

-Andres

In reply to:
It helps people with "crazy legs" that induce turns and bad body positions. You're going for a neutral body position, knees, legs and feet and toes even...It takes a few jumps to get it right/perfect (a few like more then AFF) but even without booties, if you have a knee low or your feet unsymetrical it can cause serious problems.


bodypilot1  (D 16037)

Mar 31, 2005, 9:11 PM
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Re: [tumbler] A little freaked out [In reply to] Can't Post

 
First, dont be afraid to get back in the air. Wink

Sometimes when you are in freefall alone, you tend not to focus on anything in particular on the horizon and mainly look at the ground. For practicing turns, pick something that is on the horizon so your head is up and looking somewhat straight ahead.
Try and start your turn while keeping your eyes on the spot you have chosen on the horizon, and dont do a head switch until you are no longer able to bend your neck and see it, then move your head until you can see that chosen point on the horizon again over the other shoulder and stop your turn just before your head is looking straight again.
If you keep turning past your chosen point, do not take your eyes off it and push down with the hand that is closest to the point you have picked and you should stop the turn.
Practice this in both directions.

Try this drill and let us know how it worked. Smile

Be safe.
Ed


Andrewwhyte  (C 1988)

Mar 31, 2005, 11:55 PM
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Re: [tumbler] A little freaked out [In reply to] Can't Post

The most important thing to do when you get into a flat spin is to take a deep breath and relax. It is impossible to micromanage your body into a completely neutral condition; you will always be a little off kilter one way or another. If you let the unbalanced wind fix the problem, it will. If you get upset and tense you will spin like an air hockey puck.
Breathe in... Breathe out.Smile


rasmack  (D 647)

Apr 1, 2005, 12:14 AM
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Re: [tumbler] A little freaked out [In reply to] Can't Post

Disclaimer: I am obviously no instructor. Don't believe me Wink

If you really really need to stop a spin now there's always the delta position. Legs stretched, arms back and arch like hell. It has always gotten me stable within a second. The drawback however is that it will cost you altitude as it gets you into a steep dive.


jman  (C 35130)

Apr 1, 2005, 4:17 AM
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Re: [tumbler] A little freaked out [In reply to] Can't Post

No expert here but the answer may be in your post. If you are practicing turns then you know how to get a turn going. If you start to spin left, put your body into a position to do a right hand turn. It may be as easy as dropping the elbow on your right arm if you are spinning left. As usual don't be afraid to ask an instructor.


tumbler  (D 29323)

Apr 1, 2005, 4:50 AM
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Re: [jman] A little freaked out [In reply to] Can't Post

I will discuss it with anyone that will listen to what happenedSmile and all the JM's have given great advice. I continue to think about the jump and what I could have done to induce the spin. Amazingly there are a myriad of possible combinations and it was probably more than one that got me. I am going to jump with a JM on my next lift and hopefully he can pick up what I am doing wrong.

In thinking about the feet... it seems in theory that if I take my legs past the 90 degree point in the knee bend then I should remove my lower leg, feet and toes from effecting the airflow across my body. Why is this theory flawed? I am sure it is but I am not sure why.


tdog  (D 28800)

Apr 1, 2005, 4:53 AM
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Re: [apixel] A little freaked out [In reply to] Can't Post

Andres,

Keep the booties... (unless your instructors or coaches tell you I am wrong). I started jumping a friend's jumpsuit with booties on my 20th ish jump... Finished all my "A" coaching and did my checkoff dive wearing them. The first jump was quite entertaining - I was in a track until I figured out the surface area back there... But I quickly figured them out... Now I will kindly refuse to let anyone take my booties away for any belly RW stuff...

Hint, make sure both booties are on good, because if one falls off, you get to have fun... Nothing you can't fix, but it is like driving a VW bug with 4 people hanging off one side and a flat tire on the other side.

T.


tdog  (D 28800)

Apr 1, 2005, 5:01 AM
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Re: [tumbler] A little freaked out [In reply to] Can't Post

Tumbler,

I too had a jump early on where I started to turn without wanting too. I picked a spot on the horizon to keep heading, and that did not work... I did some toe taps and fixed the problem...

I also had a jump that freaked me out... I ended up on my back... The outside air was so cold (below freezing on the ground, I have no clue about the uppers), I think my brain froze - not mentally, but physically... It felt like FOREVER as I struggled to get belly to earth.. It was probably 2 seconds, but I had to use every ounce of brain power I had to get me over... I never had a problem fliping over before. Heck, on my AFF jumps I ended up on my back on exit a few times and flipped over very quickly... My instructors always commented that I was good at recovering stability. This was a new problem for me.

What does not kill you gives you confidence... I was scared after that jump, but also more confident that next time I could solve the problem quicker, and that while 2 seconds felt like forever, I was not putting my life in danger at that moment. So the next time I had to work hard at flipping, like a few jumps ago where I was looking at another jumper, thus putting my head in the wrong spot, I did not panic and think I would never get over, I just relaxed, and did what I needed to do... When you panic (at least me) - tasks become harder than they need to... The more times you find yourself in an uncomfortable spot, the more confortable you will be at fixing the problem (again, for at least me.)

My post is not to say I know how to fix the spin you had, but it is to say....

Keep skydiving... Don't let something small ground you mentally. The experience you had just might be 100X more valuable than if you had a perfect skydive. That is my two cents.


(This post was edited by tdog on Apr 1, 2005, 5:10 AM)


apixel  (B 28737)

Apr 1, 2005, 5:43 AM
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Re: [tdog] A little freaked out [In reply to] Can't Post

Hey T,

They are in my new suit, so I'll definitely keep them. I think I'll be doing alternate jumps with and without. I just don't feel like doing the "expensive" jumps with something I can't control too well, but I'm keeping them for my fun jumps. So while I go learn something with a coach, I'm going to keep them off; at least for now. But yeah! I already love them.

-A


tdog  (D 28800)

Apr 1, 2005, 6:11 AM
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Re: [apixel] A little freaked out [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Hey T,

They are in my new suit, so I'll definitely keep them. I think I'll be doing alternate jumps with and without. I just don't feel like doing the "expensive" jumps with something I can't control too well, but I'm keeping them for my fun jumps. So while I go learn something with a coach, I'm going to keep them off; at least for now. But yeah! I already love them.

-A


Cool... You and I have a different point of view... I don't like to change things much back and forth... So I would keep them on always (on belly to earth jumps) and get used to them... But, if you are afraid you will not get the coach jump done with them, then I guess you have a point.


itsdave  (A License)

Apr 1, 2005, 6:51 AM
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Re: [tumbler] A little freaked out [In reply to] Can't Post

I think this has been mentioned before, but it works brilliant for me so I'll say it again! I only recently completed my turns jump and the one thing I definitely learnt was RELAX! focus on your body position, but don't worry about it. I take a deep breath and stick my belly right out when i exhale. on top of this i always point my toes as far as they will go - this seems to stretch my legs out evenly. if i focus on moving the whole leg things start to get interesting Crazy. its probably more important for your next jump cos of the nerves, just try to chill out and everything seems to slow down. hope this helps you out, and enjoy your next jump! Wink


wmw999  (D 6296)

Apr 1, 2005, 6:58 AM
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Re: [tumbler] A little freaked out [In reply to] Can't Post

If you're spinning, and trying to turn the other way isn't working, make sure that you look OVER your shoulder in the direction you want to turn. That should turn you the other way, and once you're in control, you can relax a little and go back to being stable. You've proven over a number of jumps that you're perfectly capable of flying flat and stable.Smile

And yes, relax. The wind can push your arms and legs around -- that's one of the best parts of freefall.

Wendy W.


Premier billvon  (D 16479)
Moderator
Apr 1, 2005, 10:05 AM
Post #18 of 21 (1274 views)
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Re: [tumbler] A little freaked out [In reply to] Can't Post

>In thinking about the feet... it seems in theory that if I take my legs past
> the 90 degree point in the knee bend then I should remove my lower leg,
>feet and toes from effecting the airflow across my body. Why is this theory
>flawed?

Because:

1. If they're bent they are still hanging out over the side
2. If you do that you backslide, and the same things that make you turn in a track now have the opposite effect.

A bit of advice - practice leg turns. Get on a creeper and lay your feet on a couch. Push against the couch to turn your body left and right. Do that a lot until it's second nature. That's exactly the same action you wll use to turn in the air.


sfzombie13  (Student)

Apr 1, 2005, 1:31 PM
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Re: [billvon] A little freaked out [In reply to] Can't Post

thanx for posting this creeper thing. i had a slow turn to the left when i last jumped, it was only 4 - 5 turns in a 15 sec freefall, but i couldn't figure out how to make it stop. i was a s/l student, and my instructors went so far as to take me up on an aff type jump, with 2 instructors and a guy with a camera to film it. when they let go, sure enough, there was the slow spin. my i signalled to kick my legs out, didn't work. he told me to use my shoulder, didn't work. the video was a little helpful, but they all said i had decent body position, we couldn't figure it out. i haven't jumped much in the last 4 years, but am getting back into it when the weather clears. i am definately going to practice turns now that i know how.


drdive  (D 29619)

Apr 2, 2005, 10:50 AM
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Re: [sfzombie13] A little freaked out [In reply to] Can't Post

Also consider some tunnel time with a coach. I was doing some wildly uncontrolled turns in AFF, spent 15 minutes in the tunnel, and he taught me to use my knees/legs to control the turns as well as the usual way by pivoting on your arms. It helped me tremendously. Bill's idea of using the creeper and practicing the push with your knee/leg sounds like a great idea.
Ed


tumbler  (D 29323)

Apr 10, 2005, 3:56 PM
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Re: [drdive] A little freaked out [In reply to] Can't Post

Excellent replies and I thank everyone. Billvon, creeper and the couch (working on legs) we perfect. I have made three jumps since the spin and seem to be able to keep in under control now. The JM took me out after the spinner and video taped my jump. Three JM's and the DZO all gave me feedback, and all said it was in my feet! The two following jumps went excellent and I should complete student status with one more jump!Angelic. Need to track better but awareness and stability has been great! Thanks everyone that replied. Smile



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