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Back up devices (from incidents)

 

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Hooknswoop  (D License)

Mar 21, 2005, 8:48 AM
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Back up devices (from incidents) Can't Post

Decide if you make the skydive as if you don't have a Cypres.

Be prepared for your altimeter, either audible or visual and either mechanical or bettery operated, to fail. Depend on your senses first, your altimeter(s) second.

Derek


kallend  (D 23151)

Mar 21, 2005, 9:03 AM
Post #2 of 177 (2419 views)
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Re: [Hooknswoop] Back up devices (from incidents) [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Decide if you make the skydive as if you don't have a Cypres.

Be prepared for your altimeter, either audible or visual and either mechanical or bettery operated, to fail. Depend on your senses first, your altimeter(s) second.

Derek

Your senses alone cannot save you. A functioning parachute/harness system is needed too. (In fact, unconscious people with deployed parachutes have survived).

If (common) sense was the key, we wouldn't jump out of airplanes at all.


Hooknswoop  (D License)

Mar 21, 2005, 9:11 AM
Post #3 of 177 (2411 views)
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Re: [kallend] Back up devices (from incidents) [In reply to] Can't Post

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Your senses alone cannot save you.

Really? How did I survive all those skydives with nothing but a jumpsuit, a rig and a helmet and no AAD,RSL, Altimeter, etc?

Quote:
A functioning parachute/harness system is needed too.

Correct, which is my point, rely on yourself to deploy your parachute, not your AAD. Use your eyes to determine altitude, do die because your altimeter fails.

Quote:
If (common) sense was the key, we wouldn't jump out of airplanes at all.

Why not? It can be and is done safely all the time.

Derek


Hooknswoop  (D License)

Mar 21, 2005, 9:27 AM
Post #4 of 177 (2399 views)
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Re: [kallend] Back up devices (from incidents) [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
In Reply To
"Trust your harness, trust your reserve, trust your well cared for helmet to protect you to a certain degree, but don't trust anything else 100%. Also realize that even your harness and reserve can (and have) fail."

Quote
Trust your harness,

Quote
2 people died in the last two years from harness failures.

I find your argument to be completely illogical.

When you only post the first 3 words of a 26 word sentence and leave off an important 2nd, 12 word sentence, I could see how it wouldnt make sense. Read it again in context and see if you understand it then.

Derek

I changed the emphasis in your original statement.
Why would I trust ANYTHING 100% that has proven capable of killing people?

I'll break it down to make it easier to understand:

1) Your harness is unlikely to fail, trust in yourself to deploy your main and execute emergency procedures if necessary.

2) Do not rely on back up devices, especially don't rely on back up devices 100%, i.e. wait for the Cypres to fire to save you.

3) Your harness and reserve system can fail though it is rare.

Derek


kallend  (D 23151)

Mar 21, 2005, 9:31 AM
Post #5 of 177 (2394 views)
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Re: [Hooknswoop] Back up devices (from incidents) [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Quote:
Your senses alone cannot save you.

Really? How did I survive all those skydives with nothing but a jumpsuit, a rig and a helmet and no AAD,RSL, Altimeter, etc?

Quote:
A functioning parachute/harness system is needed too.

Correct, which is my point, rely on yourself to deploy your parachute, not your AAD. Use your eyes to determine altitude, do die because your altimeter fails.

Quote:
If (common) sense was the key, we wouldn't jump out of airplanes at all.

Why not? It can be and is done safely all the time.

Derek

It's so safe that we have an "incidents" forum to discuss fatalities. It's so safe that each month Parachutist publishes fatality reports. It's so safe that standard life insurance policies exclude skydiving. It's so safe that many health insurance policies now exclude skydiving.

We all depend on equipment and all equipment can fail. BUT SO CAN PEOPLE. Singling out one type as somehow more trustworthy than another is not helpful. As I read the fatality reports, it seems to me that the weakest link is the human. More fatalities arise from human failure than equipment failure.


Hooknswoop  (D License)

Mar 21, 2005, 9:40 AM
Post #6 of 177 (2382 views)
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Re: [kallend] Back up devices (from incidents) [In reply to] Can't Post

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We all depend on equipment and all equipment can fail.

True. You have to depend on your harness and reserve. You do not have to depend on your Cypres, RSL, altimeter, etc. You can lower your risk by relying only on your harness, main, and and reserve if the main fails and having other gear as back ups. You can increase your risk level by relying on your harness, main, reserve if your main fails, your altimeter, your Cypres, your RSL, etc.

Quote:
Your senses alone cannot save you.

Yes, they can. I have been saved by my senses more times than I can count.

Derek


skymedic  (C 33561)

Mar 21, 2005, 9:45 AM
Post #7 of 177 (2377 views)
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Re: [kallend] Back up devices (from incidents) [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
BUT SO CAN PEOPLE


people tend to fail due to poor training or poor decisions, usualy due to poor training....and also on there reliance of "saftey devices" they dont train as hard as they might otherwise...

just my two pennies...


kallend  (D 23151)

Mar 21, 2005, 9:47 AM
Post #8 of 177 (2373 views)
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Re: [Hooknswoop] Back up devices (from incidents) [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Quote:
We all depend on equipment and all equipment can fail.

True. You have to depend on your harness and reserve. You do not have to depend on your Cypres, RSL, altimeter, etc. You can lower your risk by relying only on your harness, main, and and reserve if the main fails and having other gear as back ups. You can increase your risk level by relying on your harness, main, reserve if your main fails, your altimeter, your Cypres, your RSL, etc.

Quote:
Your senses alone cannot save you.

Yes, they can. I have been saved by my senses more times than I can count.

Derek

Really. Given the choice of jumping conscious without any gear and just trusting my senses, or being thrown out unconscious with a functioning rig equipped with a properly set CYPRES, I'd choose the latter. YMMV.


kallend  (D 23151)

Mar 21, 2005, 9:52 AM
Post #9 of 177 (2368 views)
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Re: [skymedic] Back up devices (from incidents) [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Quote:
BUT SO CAN PEOPLE


people tend to fail due to poor training or poor decisions, usualy due to poor training....and also on there reliance of "saftey devices" they dont train as hard as they might otherwise...

just my two pennies...

You mean poorly trained people like Patrick de Gayardon , Rob Harris, Tom Piras, Sandy Wambach, Roger Nelson... Yes, I see your point.

Complaining about human nature is not a very profitable exercise.


(This post was edited by kallend on Mar 21, 2005, 9:56 AM)


diablopilot  (D License)

Mar 21, 2005, 9:56 AM
Post #10 of 177 (2356 views)
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Re: [kallend] Back up devices (from incidents) [In reply to] Can't Post

What's your point, and why do you persist in simply bashing others opinions vs. coming up with something constructive.

Don't take it personal, I like ya, but that's the way it's coming off here....


Premier billvon  (D 16479)
Moderator
Mar 21, 2005, 9:56 AM
Post #11 of 177 (2355 views)
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Re: [kallend] Back up devices (from incidents) [In reply to] Can't Post

>Given the choice of jumping conscious without any gear . . .

John, I know you like to argue, but you've been doing this (giving absurd answers for the sake of arguing) for a dozen posts now in two forums. Please cut it out.


freakydiver  (D 26421)

Mar 21, 2005, 10:45 AM
Post #12 of 177 (2309 views)
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Re: [kallend] Back up devices (from incidents) [In reply to] Can't Post

Horcecrap - senses have saved me quite a few times. I jumped without an altimeter for about half of my jumps. It should go without saying that you better have a parachute and harness system when hopping out of a plane unless I'm really far gone.


freakydiver  (D 26421)

Mar 21, 2005, 10:47 AM
Post #13 of 177 (2304 views)
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Re: [kallend] Back up devices (from incidents) [In reply to] Can't Post

Actually as history has shown time and time again, human nature can and will be affected by free thought. You can't sit there and say we haven't evolved - even in the past 5 decades we've come quite the long way.


kallend  (D 23151)

Mar 21, 2005, 10:56 AM
Post #14 of 177 (2290 views)
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Re: [billvon] Back up devices (from incidents) [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
>Given the choice of jumping conscious without any gear . . .

John, I know you like to argue, but you've been doing this (giving absurd answers for the sake of arguing) for a dozen posts now in two forums. Please cut it out.

Why do you state that going in with an improperly set CYPRES is an equipment failure (Incidents forum) but going in with an improperly deployed parachute is not?

You are using different criteria for failure depending what the piece of equipment is. That suggests that you are not being objective in analyzing what's going on. If it takes an "absurd" argument to point that out, so be it - that's a standard method of proof in logic.


Hooknswoop  (D License)

Mar 21, 2005, 11:01 AM
Post #15 of 177 (2284 views)
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Re: [kallend] Back up devices (from incidents) [In reply to] Can't Post

"True. You have to depend on your harness and reserve."

Quote:
Really. Given the choice of jumping conscious without any gear

Again, you are either only cutting and pasting part of my post, or are only replying to part of my post. You need to read ALL of my post before repsonding. I never siad you didn't need gear, exactly the opposite actually.

Derek


kallend  (D 23151)

Mar 21, 2005, 11:02 AM
Post #16 of 177 (2283 views)
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Re: [diablopilot] Back up devices (from incidents) [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
What's your point, and why do you persist in simply bashing others opinions vs. coming up with something constructive.

Don't take it personal, I like ya, but that's the way it's coming off here....

That's simple. I see many of the answers here from Derek, Bill, etc. as discouraging the use of an AAD and other hi-tech devices. That is, IMO, seriously wrong.

A quick look at the fatality reports over the last few years shows that over 70% can be attributed to human error, and the number is NOT improving despite all the hand wringing over device dependency, ISP training, etc.

Apparently humans need all the back-up they can get, and anything that discourages them from getting that back-up is unconstructive.


Edited to add: over 70% of all aviation accidents are finally attributed by NTSB to human error. And pilots are very highly trained individuals.

I simply don't see that more preaching is going to improve these numbers.


(This post was edited by kallend on Mar 21, 2005, 11:11 AM)


kallend  (D 23151)

Mar 21, 2005, 11:09 AM
Post #17 of 177 (2273 views)
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Re: [Hooknswoop] Back up devices (from incidents) [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
"True. You have to depend on your harness and reserve."

Quote:
Really. Given the choice of jumping conscious without any gear

Again, you are either only cutting and pasting part of my post, or are only replying to part of my post. You need to read ALL of my post before repsonding. I never siad you didn't need gear, exactly the opposite actually.

Derek

Just getting you to admit that you are, in fact device dependent. You depend on a harness, container, deployment system, cutaway system, and canopies, all of which devices have, in the past, failed with fatal results. Yet you pick on some devices as somehow less worthy than others.


Premier wmw999  (D 6296)

Mar 21, 2005, 11:10 AM
Post #18 of 177 (2270 views)
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Re: [kallend] Back up devices (from incidents) [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
I see many of the answers here from Derek, Bill, etc. as discouraging the use of an AAD and other hi-tech devices.

Interesting. I don't read them the same way. I do read them as discouraging resetting one's safety level or safety perception based on those devices. And I think there is some validity to that.

The more complex an overall system is, the more interactions there are for some piece of it to fail, even if in a completely unforeseen manner. Such as a miscalibrated AAD.

If you skydive as though you are the only person checking your gear, and packing it, and in charge of your altitude awareness, then you will possibly decrease the overall complexity of your skydive to something that you can manage (note this is the rhetorical you, not the kallend-you).

That way, more experienced people are more likely to do more complex skydives, and less experienced people are (hopefully) more likely to keep their skydives a little less complex.

Do what you can master. Yes, it's hard to skydive repeatedly without gear. And people who never learn how to pack or maintain their gear are also, frankly, a little more scary to me.

Wendy W.


Hooknswoop  (D License)

Mar 21, 2005, 11:10 AM
Post #19 of 177 (2269 views)
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Re: [kallend] Back up devices (from incidents) [In reply to] Can't Post

Again, you are not reading my entire post. This is what I wrote in the other forum:

"Jumping with an AAD is great, but making a jump because you have an AAD that you wouldn't do w/o an AAD is a false sense of security. One MUST think in the terms that the AAD won't work since it might not. If a jumper bounces because their altimeter fails, they should not have ever left the airplane because altimeters can and do fail. They should be treated strictly as a back up to the jumper's own senses."

Quote:
Apparently humans need all the back-up they can get, and anything that discourages them from getting that back-up is unconstructive.

I agree that humans need all the back up they can get, but then DON'T RELY ON THAT BACK UP, because if you do, it is no longer back up. By all means, use an altimeter, a Cypres, etc, but do not rely on them. Work like mad to save yourself and only if you fail should any of these ever be used.

You (hopefully) wouldn't drive faster because you have an airbag and you wouldn't (hopefully) make a skydive you woudn't make because you have a Cypres, altimeter, RSL, whatever.

Derek


Premier billvon  (D 16479)
Moderator
Mar 21, 2005, 11:14 AM
Post #20 of 177 (2257 views)
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Re: [kallend] Back up devices (from incidents) [In reply to] Can't Post

>If it takes an "absurd" argument to point that out . . .

OK, I was being all diplomatic before, but let me put it this way -

If you feel you must continue to bring up absurd arguments to "win", your posts are going to get deleted and/or you are going to get banned. This is a safety and training forum where safety issues are discussed, not a college debating team where a clever angle used to rile your opponent gets you extra credit. Please do not argue for the sake of arguing, or for the sake of 'defeating' someone.


Hooknswoop  (D License)

Mar 21, 2005, 11:14 AM
Post #21 of 177 (2257 views)
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Re: [kallend] Back up devices (from incidents) [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
Just getting you to admit that you are, in fact device dependent.

I said you need a harness and reserve a while ago, I never thought or posted that you didn't..................Crazy


Quote:
You depend on a harness, container, deployment system, cutaway system, and canopies, all of which devices have, in the past, failed with fatal results. Yet you pick on some devices as somehow less worthy than others.

I don't pick on needing a rig, because, well, you need it. You can jump and live without an AAD, RSL , etc. I think back up devices are great, but when they become primary and not back, I have a problem with how they are being used. A rig is necessary, an AAD isn't.

Derek


Praetorian  (B 27234)

Mar 21, 2005, 11:16 AM
Post #22 of 177 (2252 views)
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Re: [kallend] Back up devices (from incidents) [In reply to] Can't Post

(NOT DIRECTED AT ANYONE) this is just a thought...

No more annalogies, here it is YOU HAVE TO USE A PARACHUTE TO SKYDIVE the rules here in the USA say you have to use a reserve... I CHOOSE to use a cypres ... On Every jump ... because I have that option, I CHOOSE to wear my seatbelt ... If cypres was banned or did not exist I would still jump. I turn it on and forget about it ... and if I need it I hope it works, personally I hope mine is retired never having been tested. BUT WHEN(if) THE SH>T hits the fan I would rather have 1 more roll of the dice .. wouldnt you? There is no shame in choosing to have a back up. THERE IS GREAT SHAME in jumping from a plane and willfully doing nothing and requireing a backup device to live.. THATS IT right there. Turn it on and forget it, I do if you don't believe it THATS YOUR PROBLEM stop trying to tell me whats in my head. IF you have ever actually said Well this is so ass stupid I'm likely to die .. but I've got a cypres so its cool .. stay the Fu<K away from me... if you think there is some moral or bigballs high ground to passing on a safety BACK UP thats your call I'm not gonna tell you whats in your head .. but I don't agree with you.


Ron

Mar 21, 2005, 11:20 AM
Post #23 of 177 (2248 views)
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Re: [kallend] Back up devices (from incidents) [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
That's simple. I see many of the answers here from Derek, Bill, etc. as discouraging the use of an AAD and other hi-tech devices. That is, IMO, seriously wrong.

That quite frankly is crap.

They have said that you should not DEPEND on them.

That is a big difference.


cbain  (D 25839)

Mar 21, 2005, 11:24 AM
Post #24 of 177 (2239 views)
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Re: [Hooknswoop] Back up devices (from incidents) [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Decide if you make the skydive as if you don't have a Cypres.

Be prepared for your altimeter, either audible or visual and either mechanical or bettery operated, to fail. Depend on your senses first, your altimeter(s) second.

Derek

I agree with what you've said here. But I also see the other side.

Any piece of equipment can and will fail, and that includes parachutes and harnesses as well. And if you trust reserves and harnesses 100% than that's not being honest with yourself either.

I improve my chances of survival by jumping with a throughly tested reserve and harness. I can go even further though and improve that "margin of safety" or "mitigate the risk" by using an altimeter, an audible, a cypres, a helmet, 3 ring cutaway system, rsl, skyhook, etc. Why not stack the odds in your favor as much as possible?

I don't trust my cypress to save me though by any means. But you also can't trust your reserve to save you if you screw up bad enough either.

I think the issue is that it comes across as "trust your reserve and harness 100%" and "trust everything else 0%" when in actuality the whole thing is a big muddy scale of gray between the two.

You also state, not to do a jump that you wouldn't do without a Cypres. Just because I'd be willing to do that jump without a cypres doesn't mean I should. It just means I'm willing to accept a higher risk. Just like people who perform high performance landings accept a higher risk. It's not about doing the jump with or without a cypres, it's about the level of risk that person is willing to accept. You could have one person that refuses to ever jump without a cypres and one who never jumps with a cypres, that doesn't mean either person is "ready" to make a particular jump.

Educating people on their gear and educating them on making the right choices of when to and when not to jump will help more than telling a newbie that they should be willing to do a jump without a cypress or altimeter.

Christina


nicknitro71  (D 26704)

Mar 21, 2005, 11:26 AM
Post #25 of 177 (2234 views)
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Re: [Hooknswoop] Back up devices (from incidents) [In reply to] Can't Post

Think BASE:

Senses, harness, and reserve. That's all is needed.


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