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Cypres report, 5 March fatality at Perris

 

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mjosparky  (D 5476)

Mar 18, 2005, 10:00 AM
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Cypres report, 5 March fatality at Perris Can't Post

As promised the report on the cypres from the fatality at Perris 5 March 2005.

Sparky

The finding is: On Saturday, 5th of March the CYPRES was switched on
at approximately sea level and then transported to Perris Valley,
which is located 1420 feet above sea level. This action gave the
CYPRES a Ąground referenceď that was way below the Perris Valley soil.
Consequently, during the jump in question, it could not activate
before reaching the soil at Perris.

Pressure data:
The switch on air pressure was 1017 millibars (20 ft. MSL).
The air pressure at Ątake offď (during uphill drive to DZ) was 1005
millibars (360 ft. MSL).
The air pressure at the Perris DZ (1420 ft. MSL) that day, was 967
millibars (provided by local flight service).


Following the investigation, the CYPRES was brought back to its
original condition with its original cutter, and was subject to a test
flight in a pressure chamber. A CYPRES loop was routed through the
cutter. It was taken up to 5000 feet and was flown down with a
simulated freefall speed of 112 mph (50 m/sec). The cutter activated
and cut the loop at the correct altitude.


Conclusion:
A correct handling of the CYPRES unit as described in the User's Guide
would have assured the desired function.

flyclearjohn - Above are the latest facts on this incident. If anything else is learned I will be sure and let you know.


(This post was edited by mjosparky on Mar 18, 2005, 11:19 AM)


diablopilot  (D License)

Mar 18, 2005, 10:02 AM
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Re: [mjosparky] Cypres report, 5 May fatality at Perris [In reply to] Can't Post

Thank you Sparky.


Premier skymama  (D 26699)
Moderator
Mar 18, 2005, 10:07 AM
Post #3 of 210 (3697 views)
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Re: [mjosparky] Cypres report, 5 May fatality at Perris [In reply to] Can't Post

Do you mean March and not May? You might want to edit the title to avoid confusion.


Praetorian  (B 27234)

Mar 18, 2005, 10:08 AM
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Re: [mjosparky] Cypres report, 5 May fatality at Perris [In reply to] Can't Post

well on the plus side we can all continue to "trust" our respective cypres'

On the down side we are all again reminded that the are JUST A BACKUP and even if in working order they might not function as desired and save us.

Human error will find some part in almost all accidents. because of an error in turning on a device before leaving home we all lost a fellow jumper, and lost the learning experience of her being able to tell us whan led to the no pull... what a loss

BSBD

(edit to fix a typo or 2 or 3 )


(This post was edited by Praetorian on Mar 18, 2005, 10:10 AM)


mjosparky  (D 5476)

Mar 18, 2005, 10:14 AM
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Re: [Praetorian] Cypres report, 5 May fatality at Perris [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
well on the plus side we can all continue to "trust" our respective cypres'

You should never "trust" anything but you.

If you jump an AAD, turn it on at the DZ and jump like you don't have one.

Sparky


bmcd308  (D 27472)

Mar 18, 2005, 10:41 AM
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Re: [mjosparky] Cypres report, 5 May fatality at Perris [In reply to] Can't Post

>>jump like you don't have one<<

I could not agree more. Whenever you have an obviously screwed up dive plan and someone says something to you about it, please do not smile and say, "That's why I have a Cypres." Instead, say what you really mean, which is "I am a dumbass."

EDITED to add: I understand that a bad dive plan was not a factor in the incident at hand. But I see way too many people who believe that their $1,200 magic amulet will save them no matter what happens.


(This post was edited by bmcd308 on Mar 18, 2005, 10:43 AM)


Scrumpot  (D License)

Mar 18, 2005, 2:00 PM
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Re: [bmcd308] Cypres report, 5 May fatality at Perris [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
EDITED to add: I understand that a bad dive plan was not a factor in the incident at hand. But I see way too many people who believe that their $1,200 magic amulet will save them no matter what happens.

Anyone who ever does ANY skydive "just because they have a Cypres", or maybe better stated, that they would NOT DO WITHOUT ONE; that they otherwise WILL if they do, needs to rethink their entire jump attitude. IMHO.

Agreed that (as best we know) was "not the case" here, but I just thought that needed to be said. Anyone wanting to, feel free to flame away...

BSBD,
-Grant


JeepDiver  (D License)

Mar 18, 2005, 2:10 PM
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Re: [Scrumpot] Cypres report, 5 May fatality at Perris [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
I have no speculation to ad. My condolences to all effected by this loss.

I'll wait for the Cypess data, if any. And the conclusion of the investigation

The question I have now is, was this jumper, jumping her own rig which she may have turned on "at sea level" or did she borrow another jumpers gear?

From what I've read in the incident thread she never deployed either her main or reserve.

As a student I've been instructed to turn on the cypress as part of the gear check and to not trust a cypress which is already "on"


kai2k1  (B License)

Mar 18, 2005, 2:18 PM
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Re: [mjosparky] Cypres report, 5 March fatality at Perris [In reply to] Can't Post

Thanks for the info Michael. At least this part can be put to bed now. Unsure


Reginald  (D 28162)

Mar 18, 2005, 2:21 PM
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Re: [mjosparky] Cypres report, 5 March fatality at Perris [In reply to] Can't Post

People,

This tragic incident sickens me. All the talk of not relying on a backup device totally misses the point. This person died a tragic death due to lack of knowledge of the gear she was jumping. This death was almost certainly preventable if the jumper had read the manual. My deepest condolences to her family and friends. I hope that the skydiving community learns from this one and people take the 15 minutes to read their CYPRES manuals. The life it might save is your own. Iím shocked at the widespread lack of knowledge that the unit does not activate until 1,500 feet and the complete misinformation in the community of itís firing parameters. I personally got curious about it as a student and read a manual, the first of 3 times, because I heard 5 different experienced skydivers give 5 different answers on how and when the unit activates. This is, in my opinion, is a glaring problem in our community that is easily fixable. Please letís honor the young ladyís memory by learning from her mistake and lets all take the time to educate ourselves on how a CYPRES works. And this should go for people that donít have one too, because these are probably the more experienced jumpers that may have younger jumpers ask them questions. And if nothing else, almost everyone else jumps with one so if you donít itís not a bad idea to know whatís going on in the container of your jump buddies.

Sorry for the rant but the visible lack of knowledge of CYPRESís in the community has bothered me for some time and now weíve lost one of our own due to this lack of knowledge.


tigra  (C 27417)

Mar 18, 2005, 2:26 PM
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Re: [JeepDiver] Cypres report, 5 May fatality at Perris [In reply to] Can't Post

She was jumping her own gear and the speculation was (and is now backed up by this report) that she turned her cypres on at home before she left for the dz. We'll never know why she didn't deploy a main or reserve. Frown


Scrumpot  (D License)

Mar 18, 2005, 2:36 PM
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Re: [Reginald] Cypres report, 5 March fatality at Perris [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Please letís honor the young ladyís memory by learning from her mistake and lets all take the time to educate ourselves on how a CYPRES works.

I agree. Let's honor this deceased's memory and learn from the mistakes, however: THE MISTAKE WAS NOT THAT SHE FUCKED UP WITH HER CYPRES!! Mad

I'm sorry. but the "mistake" or incident was that she FAILED TO DEPLOY A LANDABLE PARACHUTE (EITHER HER MAIN OR HER RESERVE) PRIOR TO IMPACT!

This jump is no different than thousands upon thousands of others that take place WITHOUT a Cypres every year. ...Please: THE CYPRES HAD NO INVOLVEMENT WHATSOEVER IN THIS INCIDENT!

Quote:
Sorry for the rant but the visible lack of knowledge...

Ditto.

Rant mode now again [/off].
As Sparky has ALREADY SAID, several times now:

Yes, turn on your Cypres AT THE INTENDED LZ LEVEL (or know how to adjust it accordingly), but then please... proceed to jump as if you DIDN'T have one!

BSBD,
-Grant


(This post was edited by Scrumpot on Mar 18, 2005, 2:40 PM)


likearock  (D 24640)

Mar 18, 2005, 2:40 PM
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Re: [Scrumpot] Cypres report, 5 May fatality at Perris [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Anyone who ever does ANY skydive "just because they have a Cypres", or maybe better stated, that they would NOT DO WITHOUT ONE; that they otherwise WILL if they do, needs to rethink their entire jump attitude. IMHO.

While I understand and agree with your general sentiment, there are many people who would be reluctant to do certain jumps without a Cypres. For example, on big ways where the possibilities of collisions are increased.

I don't think that necessarily means they're relying on their Cypres. Just that they'd rather stack the odds in their favor.

Wayne


CanuckInUSA  (D 26396)

Mar 18, 2005, 2:42 PM
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Re: [Scrumpot] Cypres report, 5 March fatality at Perris [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
THE CYPRES HAD NO INVOLVEMENT WHATSOEVER IN THIS INCIDENT!

Agreed ...

Condolences to those who knew and loved the deceased.


dgskydive  (C 25738)

Mar 18, 2005, 2:47 PM
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Re: [mjosparky] Cypres report, 5 March fatality at Perris [In reply to] Can't Post

Thanks Mike!!!!!


Human error people. Be careful!!!


mjosparky  (D 5476)

Mar 18, 2005, 2:53 PM
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Re: [dgskydive] Cypres report, 5 March fatality at Perris [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Thanks Mike!!!!!


Human error people. Be careful!!!

The sad thing is it is almost always Human Error.

Sparky


Scrumpot  (D License)

Mar 18, 2005, 2:54 PM
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Re: [likearock] Cypres report, 5 May fatality at Perris [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
I don't think that necessarily means they're relying on their Cypres. Just that they'd rather stack the odds in their favor.

Or that they are about to get involved in a jump that is beyond their abilities and appropriate margin of (relative) safety levels. I stand by my statement. If the Cypres is the only thing that "puts you over" that decision threshold of whether to do a particular jump or not, you'd better be rethinking taking part in that jump in TOTAL 1st, in the first place.

If you WON'T do the jump without the Cypres, maybe you shouldn't do the jump? (at all)...??
Sometimes that is (or should be) a warning sign to you then, in the 1st place.

Again, NOT the situation here -with this particular jumper or incident I'm sure, so I'll stop belaboring that in here now. It's been debated ad nauseum elsewhere and for some time now. What just continually seems to "get to me though" is that no matter how hard we all try, we still continue to repeat over and over the same mistakes -regardless. And that is indeed, a shame.

I'll add my condolences once more to all concerned and affected by this incident. Sad, and tragic absolutely, for sure. Frown

BSBD,
-Grant


(This post was edited by Scrumpot on Mar 18, 2005, 2:58 PM)


Zenister  (A 42)

Mar 18, 2005, 3:08 PM
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Re: [Scrumpot] Cypres report, 5 March fatality at Perris [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
I agree. Let's honor this deceased's memory and learn from the mistakes, however: THE MISTAKE WAS NOT THAT SHE FUCKED UP WITH HER CYPRES!! Mad

it might not be THE mistake but it's certainly A mistake and one that could have very well saved her if it had not been made...

a parallel might be drawn between parents who incorrectly hook up their child's car seat... that failure would not, in and of itself, cause an incident, but it will certainly contribute to the outcome of any incident that does occur...

so there are (at least) 3 lessons to be learned here...

1. PULL.
2. Pull again, then go for silver.
3. Know your gear.


(This post was edited by Zenister on Mar 18, 2005, 3:11 PM)


Mikki_ZH  (Student)

Mar 18, 2005, 3:09 PM
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Re: [Scrumpot] Cypres report, 5 March fatality at Perris [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote

I agree. Let's honor this deceased's memory and learn from the mistakes, however: THE MISTAKE WAS NOT THAT SHE FUCKED UP WITH HER CYPRES!! Mad

I'm sorry. but the "mistake" or incident was that she FAILED TO DEPLOY A LANDABLE PARACHUTE (EITHER HER MAIN OR HER RESERVE) PRIOR TO IMPACT!

End Quote

I agree that you should not rely on your cypres as a backup device. But in this case, if she would have put the cypres on at the DZ, she would be alive.

It is true that she failed to deploy a landable canopy but if she would have set the cypres at the DZ, she would still live, and that is the only thing that counts in my opinion.

I witnessed a freefall collision 5 weeks ago and one of the guys got unconscious and only survived because of his cypres.

I would also jump if the cypres would not have been invented. But I feel saver jumping with a cypres and I also think it would be stupid to jump without a cypres nowadays because a cypres can save lives.

My 2 Pesos


(This post was edited by Mikki_ZH on Mar 18, 2005, 3:10 PM)


Premier billvon  (D 16479)
Moderator
Mar 18, 2005, 3:26 PM
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Re: [likearock] Cypres report, 5 May fatality at Perris [In reply to] Can't Post

>For example, on big ways where the possibilities of collisions are
>increased.

If I ever found myself on a dive that I would be reluctant to do without a cypres - I would take myself off that dive.

A cypres _might_ save your life if you had a serious collision on a sketchy dive that rendered you unconscious. It might open your reserve, only to have you die under a no-input landing under a tiny reserve. It might save your life, allowing you to spend the rest of your life as a quadriplegic.

Having the wisdom to not get on a dive like that _will_ save your life, and is a much more important skill than knowing how to turn on a cypres.

>Just that they'd rather stack the odds in their favor.

Nothing wrong with using a cypres to give yourself margin. But if you are using a cypres to give you the confidence you need to get on certain dives - it is doing you more harm than good.


cderham  (D 29951)

Mar 18, 2005, 3:26 PM
Post #21 of 210 (3116 views)
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Re: [Scrumpot] Cypres report, 5 May fatality at Perris [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
Or that they are about to get involved in a jump that is beyond their abilities and appropriate margin of (relative) safety levels. I stand by my statement. If the Cypres is the only thing that "puts you over" that decision threshold of whether to do a particular jump or not, you'd better be rethinking taking part in that jump in TOTAL 1st, in the first place.


I agree with this statement. A cypres should not be a deciding factor on ability to make the jump


Quote:
If you WON'T do the jump without the Cypres, maybe you shouldn't do the jump? (at all)...??
Sometimes that is (or should be) a warning sign to you then, in the 1st place.

I disagree with this statement. As stated above a Cypres should not be the deciding factor on ability to make a certain type of dive. BUT I will not jump without a cypres period!! That is my personal choice but it is a promise I have made to myself and my family. That my life is worth more then $1200 and I am making every effort possabile to be around for them. There are freak accidents even on solos that a cypres could be the difference between being broken or dead. I choose broken!! I also completly agree w/Sparky

Quote:
You should never "trust" anything but you.

If you jump an AAD, turn it on at the DZ and jump like you don't have one.

And I also beleive that no skydiver should have a cypres fire unless completly disabled. There are no second chances but my cyres gives me the peace of mind to know I have a chace if that freak accident happens to me!!!


(This post was edited by cderham on Mar 18, 2005, 3:48 PM)


Conundrum

Mar 18, 2005, 3:30 PM
Post #22 of 210 (3108 views)
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Re: [mjosparky] Cypres report, 5 March fatality at Perris [In reply to] Can't Post

Thanks for the info update. Sad. Unsure


Premier billvon  (D 16479)
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Mar 18, 2005, 3:30 PM
Post #23 of 210 (3105 views)
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Re: [cderham] Cypres report, 5 May fatality at Perris [In reply to] Can't Post

>BUT I will not jump without a cyres period!!

If you will not do a clear and pull under perfect conditions without a cypres because you believe the risk is too great - I think you might be relying too much on your cypres. (IMO of course.) It is not a magic box; it is a device that is useful under very specific (and bounded) conditions.

It's like someone who won't drive without airbags. There's nothing wrong with insisting on airbags in your car. But if you won't move a friend's car 200 feet in a parking lot unless it has airbags - you may be relying on them to do something they cannot do.

>also beleive that no skydiver should have a cyres fire unless
> completly disabled.

Most cypres fires happen with completely conscious skydivers.

There is a common conception out there that people have cypreses 'in case they get knocked out.' That's not why you will need one, statistically speaking. You'll most likely need one because you screw up and forget to pull. That doesn't make it any less valuable; much better to screw up and live to learn the lesson than screw up and die.


(This post was edited by billvon on Mar 18, 2005, 3:38 PM)


Scrumpot  (D License)

Mar 18, 2005, 3:37 PM
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Re: [cderham] Cypres report, 5 May fatality at Perris [In reply to] Can't Post

You are not pushing yourself beyond your limits, or making riskier jumps than you otherwise "normally" would without the Cypres ...just because you have one, by the way you describe it.

Completely different point than what I am making, but I appreciate the perspective.

Having a Cypres, because you have made a promise to your family that you would, in of itself, I suppose is a VALID reason to have one. I don't see any conflicts in either of our positions and statements relative to this. If you CHOOSE not to get on a jump for instance, because your Cypres would not turn on, or was out of date/out of service that is YOUR choice, for YOU, which is reasonable, due to your familial promise (or "commitment"). Although I disagree that it would be (or SHOULD be) an "issue". However, if you did not get on the jump under those circumstances instead because of FEAR of not having it otherwise ...then THAT is an entirely different story all together.

Agreed?


(This post was edited by Scrumpot on Mar 18, 2005, 3:41 PM)


cderham  (D 29951)

Mar 18, 2005, 3:43 PM
Post #25 of 210 (3081 views)
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Re: [billvon] Cypres report, 5 May fatality at Perris [In reply to] Can't Post

Bill I agree that a cypres is useful under certain specific conditions. But I do not rely on my cypres to save my life thats what I am here for. And if I EVER rely on a Cypres then I need to seriously rethink my ability to jump. I would have no problem doing a clear and pull under perfect conditions without a cypres but I just choose not to. I have made promises and will keep them. I beleive that is the least I can do for my loved ones.

And I would never forget to pull -- That Earth gets big FAST!!!!Wink


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