Forums: Skydiving: Instructors:
WHO SIGNS STUDENT CARD????

 


namgrunt

Mar 6, 2005, 6:57 AM
Post #1 of 14 (1479 views)
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WHO SIGNS STUDENT CARD???? Can't Post

if a student starts aff ,then goes to s/l and uses s/l instructers for the following 20 jumps who should(can) sighn off on the card to U.S.P.A.
SOME SAY S/L INSTRUCTER ,AFF INSTRUCTER S&TA
CAN THE S/L instructer do it??
thanks


riggerrob  (D 14840)

Mar 6, 2005, 7:16 AM
Post #2 of 14 (1471 views)
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Re: [namgrunt] WHO SIGNS STUDENT CARD???? [In reply to] Can't Post

Yes


Premier PhreeZone  (D License)
Moderator
Mar 6, 2005, 8:37 AM
Post #3 of 14 (1455 views)
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Re: [namgrunt] WHO SIGNS STUDENT CARD???? [In reply to] Can't Post

Any instructor can for the method taught.

Could you please watch your usage of capital letters? All caps is the equal of shouting online.


BIGUN  (D 23385)

Mar 7, 2005, 8:36 AM
Post #4 of 14 (1350 views)
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Re: [namgrunt] WHO SIGNS STUDENT CARD???? [In reply to] Can't Post

The Integrated Student Program (ISP) allows for any instructor who participated or observed a performance objective being met to initial that particular objective.

As it stands right now, a Coach can perform the requisites for Cats G&H, but take the student over for debrief in front of the Instructor and the "I" must initial.

When the last objective is met, that instructor or S&TA can initial the final item, sign the card as all proficiencies met and place the circular "A" stamp on the card for submission to the USPA.


bmcd308  (D 27472)

Mar 8, 2005, 11:00 AM
Post #5 of 14 (1274 views)
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Re: [BIGUN] WHO SIGNS STUDENT CARD???? [In reply to] Can't Post

>>As it stands right now, a Coach can perform the requisites for Cats G&H, but take the student over for debrief in front of the Instructor and the "I" must initial. <<

Are you sure? As a Coach, I have initialed a number of the individual tasks on the A license card myself. AFAIK, none of my students have had trouble appearing in Parachutist as "Rising Fallers."


BIGUN  (D 23385)

Mar 8, 2005, 12:08 PM
Post #6 of 14 (1268 views)
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Re: [bmcd308] WHO SIGNS STUDENT CARD???? [In reply to] Can't Post

Well, I'm never 100% - gots to leave room for changes that I'm unfamiliar with... Wink

That's my understanding and the A card still has "I" on it. Technically, Coaches are supposed to hand the student back off to the "I" to do the final check dive in Cat H

[INSTRUCTOR: Refer to SIM Section 3-2 for complete instructions on conducting the USPA A-license examination and check dive. This jump must be evaluated by a USPA Instructor or Instructor Examiner:] http://www.uspa.org/...ows/CatHDiveFlow.htm

My guess is that a Coaches rating is acceptable, but just hasn't migrated to the final paperwork yet.


bmcd308  (D 27472)

Mar 9, 2005, 7:27 AM
Post #7 of 14 (1239 views)
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Re: [BIGUN] WHO SIGNS STUDENT CARD???? [In reply to] Can't Post

Let me clarify - coaches don't sign off on the check dive at my dz, but we do sign off on things like landings in the peas, gear checking another jumper, identifying areas of and describing the effects of turbulence, planning and executing a breakoff, etc.

If we are doing it wrong, there is not much of a mechanism in place to make sure it is done right. Our dz has a USPA ND pilot/dzo and a USPA RD upjumper, so we at least try to do things right.


jgarango  (D 25594)

Mar 9, 2005, 9:56 AM
Post #8 of 14 (1225 views)
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Re: [bmcd308] WHO SIGNS STUDENT CARD???? [In reply to] Can't Post

What you're saying makes sense since what you're signing off is not specific to the training method. I understand that as coaches we are allowed to teach parts of the SIM that are not part of a training method (AFF, S/L etc...).

So things like equipment checks, canopy skills, landing obstacles and any other parts covered during the ground course, should be able to be sign off by a coach. Anyhow if we teach it , why can not we evaluate it?

Very good point.


larsrulz  (C 34603)

Mar 9, 2005, 1:10 PM
Post #9 of 14 (1210 views)
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Re: [BIGUN] WHO SIGNS STUDENT CARD???? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Well, I'm never 100% - gots to leave room for changes that I'm unfamiliar with... Wink

That's my understanding and the A card still has "I" on it. Technically, Coaches are supposed to hand the student back off to the "I" to do the final check dive in Cat H

[INSTRUCTOR: Refer to SIM Section 3-2 for complete instructions on conducting the USPA A-license examination and check dive. This jump must be evaluated by a USPA Instructor or Instructor Examiner:] http://www.uspa.org/...ows/CatHDiveFlow.htm

My guess is that a Coaches rating is acceptable, but just hasn't migrated to the final paperwork yet.

I'm surpised to hear this that coachs are not officially allowed to do check dives. I was explicitely told by Jay Stokes during my CC that coach's could do this. And my DZ also has a RD, so I'm a bit suprised to hear this.

Correcting one above issue is that coach's can, in fact, do Cat F-H as per the SIM. I personally think Cat F should best be dealt with by an I, but certainly USPA doesn't require that. Also, my DZ in particular clears jumpers for self-supervision after Cat D (static line DZ), so coach's can do everything from E-H as per the IRM ruling that coach's can do any post-self-supervision-clearing jump. Jay also indicated that this is fine as per USPA as long as the student has been cleared for self-supervision after Cat D. Not sure how the static line students can be cleared for self-superivision after Cat D though.


bmcd308  (D 27472)

Mar 10, 2005, 3:59 PM
Post #10 of 14 (1164 views)
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Re: [larsrulz] WHO SIGNS STUDENT CARD???? [In reply to] Can't Post

The only time any of this really becomes a problem is if one of my (or your) students gets a letter from USPA saying that the A license card was not properly filled out, resulting in their not actually getting the license.

At that point, all this will get sorted out real quick by the rulebook lawyers.

Until then, I will continue doing my best to help those cleared to self-supervise in freefall learn the basics, and I imagine you will, too.

Maybe none of this will ever matter...

Brent


lug  (D License)

Mar 15, 2005, 12:51 PM
Post #11 of 14 (1087 views)
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Re: [BIGUN] WHO SIGNS STUDENT CARD???? [In reply to] Can't Post

Categories A E the method specific instructor must date or jump number and initial the proper sections on the A- license proficiency card. Once the student has been clear from instructor direct supervision and at that time forward any method specific instructor or coach may fill out the sections that the student has demonstrated the skill on the A- license proficiency card. Any currently rated instructor can conduct the check dive and A license quiz, they just need the I. Before the A stamp is made all boxes are to be check by an instructor of any method that they are all filled out and initialed by the properly rated people, as far as the USPA is concerned.

This may vary slightly for DZ to DZ. In the real world you may find one DZ has the A-license check dive done by specific personnel to maintain a student standard and on the other hand there might be a DZ who really dont give a crap of who does what where and when.

Quote:
As it stands right now, a Coach can perform the requisites for Cats G&H, but take the student over for debrief in front of the Instructor and the "I" must initial.

This is not entirely true, a coach may conduct the debrief with their student and initial the proficiency card that apply to the skydive with out the instructor witnessing the debreafing. Yes, the coach must be under the supervision of an instructor to exercise their responsibility and duties as a coach. This does not mean the instructor needs to be looking over the coaches shoulder, but rather only available to the coach if he or she needs assistance.


(This post was edited by lug on Mar 15, 2005, 1:01 PM)


BIGUN  (D 23385)

Mar 15, 2005, 2:42 PM
Post #12 of 14 (1071 views)
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Re: [lug] WHO SIGNS STUDENT CARD???? [In reply to] Can't Post

First, it is F-H. Second, I like how you state better than I;

Quote:
This does not mean the instructor needs to be looking over the coaches shoulder, but rather only available to the coach if he or she needs assistance.

Finally, I think I'm going to write the folks upstairs for clarification on the "I" on the "A" card since this has come up more than once and as is the case here, received as many different opinions. I'll communicate their response.

Thanks,


lug  (D License)

Mar 15, 2005, 3:42 PM
Post #13 of 14 (1062 views)
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Re: [BIGUN] WHO SIGNS STUDENT CARD???? [In reply to] Can't Post

I am suppressed that the USPA had not stated what a coach can and can not fill out on the proficiency card in the S&TA news letter by now. I have a letter from my regional director who sits on the safety and training committee who clarified this issue for me this past June. The only reason this happened is because someone asked.

Try calling Jim Crouch instead at HQ at extension 314


BIGUN  (D 23385)

Mar 17, 2005, 1:52 PM
Post #14 of 14 (1015 views)
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Re: [lug] WHO SIGNS STUDENT CARD???? [In reply to] Can't Post

From the USPA...

Quote:
An Instructor must sign the A license card and initial the various tasks listed, as it is the instructor who is responsible for verifying that the training has been completed. The 2-page A License card has sign-offs (initial blocks) for advancement criteria only, while the 4 page progression card lists all of the tasks a student must be trained for to meet the dvancement
criteria. Here is an example:

2 page card first item:

1. Demonstrate freefall control on all axes, with a

backloop, front loop, and barrel roll performed

within 60 degrees of the initial heading.

Date ________ I* ____Lic. #* ____________

All of the steps to reach that point are not listed, where a student should have demonstrated the ability to hold a heading, pull with stability, start and
stop turns, then get to the backflips, etc. The 4 page card lists each of the maneuvers necessary for the student to get to the same point, each requiring an initial and license number from an instructor.

The BSR's state the following:

c. All students must jump under the direct upervision of an appropriately rated USPA Instructor until demonstrating stability and heading control prior
to and within five seconds after initiating two intentional disorienting maneuvers involving a back-to-earth presentation. [E]

Once a student has acheived the above while working wth an instructor, they may then continue freefall training with a USPA Coach. Even though the coach is training the freefall portions in Category G and H, they are still under the supervision of an Instructor, who needs to initial the student's 2 page card that the training has been met.

On the 4 page progression card there are initials for the freefall training in G and H which list an initial line for a C/I which means that a Coach can
initial that they have completed the freefall training with the student in that category. This is because the Coach is able to work with the student in the
freefall training but the rest of the training is to be performed by an instructor. The instructor who signs the final signature on either card is verifying that the student has been adequately trained for all the skills and knowledge necessary for the USPA A License.



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